Mirrors and men

I am challaged owner of a five year old yellow nape amazon named Boomer. Boomer has an obsession with mirrors, my house is coverd and the more he gets to see himself the more agressive he gets. My boyfriend seems to have an easier time controling him than I do, I can't even pick him up any more. He even seems to hunt me, following every move I make trying to get a shot at me. So far I've been able to avoid serious injury but its only a matter of time, Boomer has now started to ignor his best treats to get a shot at me. If anyone has some advice that would be great since the training info I've found dose not address the issues I have.

Well, think of it this way ... wouldn't you be kinda upset all the time if you were seeing people in your 'territory' that you didn't know and you were constantly trying to defend it.

Parrots, IIRC, don't understand that the reflection that they are seeing in the mirror is really them. They think that it is another "intruder" that has infiltrated his parrot territory (are you aware that there isn't a more territorial bird than any of the "hot-3" amazons during mating season ... you have one of the "Hot-3" and it's right in the middle of mating season ... Congratulations, welcome to 'Parrot Hell') now he either has to fight the intruder off, or accept the fact that there is someone else there which means that there are going to be less resources (food, water, mates) for him ... during hormal season - they tend to be more "fighty" than "friendly" ...

Try for a week, keeping him away from the mirrors, see if my theory is correct ... see if it changes his attitude. Really, this is just a hunch, but, "it's just so crazy it just might work."

AD, you are the behavior "expert" around here ... anything you want to add to this ... maybe something I missed ... or, do you have another theory that may also be at play here ...

Sounds pretty good to me. Some clarification will help though:

Hannah said:

Boomer has an obsession with mirrors, my house is coverd and the more he gets to see himself the more agressive he gets.

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Does he behave aggressively toward the mirrors, or does he become more aggressive toward YOU when he sees the mirrors?

If it's the latter he does not likely see the reflection as an intruder, but rather as his mate - this seems to be the common parrot reaction to a reflection.

Though in either case the solution would be the same, just as Tex described. If the problem is the mirrors, get rid of the mirrors.

Patient: Doctor doctor, every time I lift my arm up like this I get a shooting pain in my back
Doctor: Then don't lift your arm up like that!

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Thank yous

I really apreciate the advice and to clarify for you yes he sees the mirror as a mate, he feeds cleans and sings to the mirrors. I know that boomer likes Scott my boyfriend more than me and we have been trying to break that so that I can put in my part of caring for him too, also Scotts in the NG should he get called to active duty I will be left to care for boomer and I fear for my fingers...

I've read about the training to break a one person bird and we have been having me be the only one giving him his treats, and I never go in without one, I wait as passive and as calm as I can and wait for a behavior I like to give him the treat I want him to have seeing me be a fun and good thing for him this worked for some time but since breeding season started he gotten worse dispite me trying to control the amount of light he gets to help curb that drive

I know that boomers one of the "hot3" but easy is not my way, and the amazon is such a intelegent bird I really think once I figure it all out and give boomer what he deserves and need we could have a perfect addision to the family, besides he's been abandoned once already by a man that didn't know that his baby would grow up and gave him up instead of getting the info boomer needed him to have, do you think that maybe the abandedment is still affecting his behavior?

Re: Thank yous

Sorry to not get back to this one sooner. It seems to have gotten lost in the pile.

Hannah said:

the amazon is such a intelegent bird

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Yes, but the training of any animal depends less on the intelligence of the animal and more on the intelligence of the owner

Hannah said:

do you think that maybe the abandedment is still affecting his behavior?

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Maybe, but I doubt this is a big factor, since he gets along well with your boyfriend. I really have to reiterate - get rid of the mirrors. Or at least don't let Boomer see them... ever.

It's not enough to ween him off of his reflection - he needs to go cold turkey. Birds seem to have a big ego - nothing seems to attract them more than their own reflection. Boomer sees a mirror and thinks "well well, there's a fine looking bird..." Just LIMITING the time around mirrors will make it seem as though that 'other' fine looking bird is still around, you just aren't letting them interact. Boomer has to get the idea that that other bird is GONE.

Your on the right track with controlling the amount of light he gets during breeding season - specifically it should seem as though the days are short, meaning he wakes up late and gets covered up for bed early.

Also going in with a treat and waiting for good behavior is a great approach. If you get rid of his reflecto-lover (yes, I make up words), and keep up with what you are doing I think you'll see good results soon.

I don't mind that it took you a bit to get back to me any help I can get with out having to pay a trainer or buy some training videos that might not work anyway is a huge help. I did finally get my man to stop letting him see himself after the last bad bite, he just thought his reaction to him self was funny, now hes getting the same reactions with out a mirror. I do wish we owned this condo though, then I could remove these 70's style mirrors that cover every closet and wall of the house, they look weird with tapistres and paper covering them but boomer so head strong without covering them compleatly he finds a way to get to them. I've trained dogs before with great sucsess and know that without a constent rule with no exceptions is the only way to get training to work, now I think I've finally got my old man on the same page. For some time I had to refuse to interact with boomer because I got bit after weeks of Scott undermineing all the rules I read about and tried to apply. Scotts never had a bird before and is one of those people that expect an animal to behave and love him if he's nice and loves them, he's finally come around to the age of reason after bombarding him for weeks with info, and I feel so much better about having boomer just having someone like you to relate to. The last question I have is if you know a book or reliable training video, I think scott and I both could enjoy boomer even more and boomer could enjoy us more with some fun tricks to help keep boomers mind right and busy. So far we can't get him to do anything on comand exsept step up.

Good training books are hard to come by, for some reason animal training is one subject everything thinks they're an expert at without taking a single class or without any studies, so they go write a book with all their ideas.

I'm sure there are some good ones out there buried in the stacks of bad ones. Perhaps someone else can suggest some.

Not sure of any books and I'm no training speshulist(why can't I write spe******t?), but I want to say this:
Every bird is different, including yours. What some consider a "bad" training guide may be extremely helpful to you/your bird. Everyone learns differently, and this is the same for the birds. Whatever you end up doing, whether it be online, book, or one on one, do what seems is best for YOUR bird, and not someone elses. Of course you need opinions and take opinions from everyone here, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to ignore what works for people, I mean try what everyone says and use what works best.

VERY well said... This is why the best training would have to be with an experienced trainer who actually observes what your bird is doing and tailors the training to that. Another reason training books don't work very well.

But as Jez said if you do soak up all the ideas that work for others you can try them out - some are bound to work, but dont hesitate to discard the ones that don't.

Just some random thoughts from an owner of a very unruly Amazon.
You can't train an Amazon, not in the traditional sense. They are extremely smart. You have to make them think they are training you, which they will try to do. Figure out their favorite foods and things to chew on. Scratch their head, clip their toenails when needed (mine isn't
a happy bird until this is done.) If they scream you have to learn why they are screaming. Sometimes it's an alarm like the time a hawk figured out where the birds were and was divebombing the window. Sometimes they scream because you have them in the cage so they can't attack someone
they clearly hate. Cover cage..... Screaming while on phone, fill bowl with lots of favorite foods and things to chew on.
They clearly know their own strength as my bird Tina will test her bite on her own leg every time before she places beak on my hand to make sure
she isn't hurting me. She jsut attacks everyone else. Don't think this can be cured unfortunately....

Michelle

Sorry I havent gotten on here to thank you all for such good advice, AG, Jez, and michelle thank you all. I've been kinda busy with school (vet tech. prog.) I havent been on, I have found some conflickting info across the net though I would love to hear any opions, some people say its right to give your birds an outside view others say its bad, boomer has a great view of the river here in cocoa florida and like Michelle had a hawk I have a visiting osprey, but I can't tell if boomers scared of him or interestesed, when this bird of prey lands on the tree outside boomer ither reacts to us coming to see too or acually is scared of it or is calling to it. I think he's calling to it, he flatens himself out on the perch, makes a crackaling sound and this is the same kind of reaction he has to new people who he lets pick him up, compleat strangers get more love from this bird than I do, its rare for him to want to play with me but strangers he talks and steps up and I have to have a treat and use the power pause training that Chet Womach sent me in a series of emails after visiting his site to get boomer to want anything to do with me. With all the conflickting opions on his view and the season and his age he has enuff making him angry and unperdictable if I could eliminate weather or not the outside view is bad or good I just would like to make him as happy as possible too bad I like my fingers cause he'ed be so happy to get that snack...hehehe

I can't possibly imagine why an outside view would be bad - unless they don't feel safe.

I have ALWAYS had Auggie by a window and occasionally take him outside in his travel cage on nice days. When he is out of his cage he gets even closer to the window to get fresh air and to look around. Of course he does have plenty of "safe" sheltered areas to escape to when something new or strange passes by the window.

I'm no expert on these guys, but I can't imagine why letting them have a view of the outside would be BAD. If you get a chance to ask the people who claim it is I would really like to know why they say it is bad. Unless of course it is just what I alluded to: that they cannot escape from threats.

As long as they have 'safe' and secluded areas of their cage to go to to escape and/or get some shade I'd prefer to keep by birds by windows.

In fact one of these days I'd like to build an outdoor aviary - like a big cage with a nice view where Auggie can hang out and I can bring a lawn chair in and do some reading while hanging out with him. He'll have places to go to get away, boxes and covered areas - in fact he's already made a footlocker into a bit of a nesting box. I used this one big footlocker for hauling some of his stuff (he has more "stuff" than I do) when we moved here. I never completely emptied it, there was a cardboard box, some rags, treats, toys, etc left in it and the lid got propped open one day just a couple of inches. He snuck in there tore up the cardboard, rearranged, redecorated. Now I leave it propped open just a bit and he goes in quite regularly. I think he enjoys sprucing up his nesting spot in the hope that some single female will come check it out someday.

I'm absolutely going to do this. Just as soon as I have a house ... with a yard ... and money ... and time. So, maybe when I retire :/

That sounds beautiful, I really was hoping that it was ok, boomer sits on his perch and falls asleep in front of his view everyday. He always seems relaxed there and we walk out him out side on the screened in porch we have on the second floor. Boomer ducks from time to time when a pelican or seagull flys by, but his reaction is mild and forgets in no time. You ever think about retireing in florida, houses are cheep right now and alot come with screened in areas already, I used to live in the north east and had cockatils and bugges, a few of which were lost to the cold that could seek in on us in the fall and spring storms that would knock out the heat, it always seemed that it only took a short exposer to the cold to claim one of our feathered friends. We had a cockatile fred that was getting up in age, master excape artiest, got out, heat got knock out and he was hiding in a shadow box full of mini trees made of slick blended right in and could not find him for maybe half an hour after we lost him. Grade A clown fred, hanging upside down doin' cat calls during breakfeast.

Well I will not be retiring for... oh another 35 years or so... and probably not even then.

But if I did where else would I go but Florida - heaven's waiting room.

Actually if I ever get so old that they force me to quit doing my job I'd head a bit further south to Cuerna Vaca Mexico.

I'ed love to see the amazons in the wild some day, zip line though the tree tops seeing what boomer dreams of. Even the parakeet clouds in auzy would be a sight. I can see your into birds big time and I don't know what you do for a living but I'm headed for the vet tech prog. here in cocoa, I hope one day to take it to rehabilatation, pit rescue, you know they usually put down a fighting dog before its tested to see if it even could be re-socialized. New programs in miami are getting some great results.

I've done quite a bit of animal training, but primarily with dogs from police/military to some work with service dogs and a lot of pet training. Quite often that meant rehabilitating animals that other trainers or veterinarians said would have to be put down... they were wrong every time. Any animal can be trained with the right techniques - it's humans I'm not so sure about.

In addition to working with animals I'd like to work with troubled children - particularly those diagnosed with Autism. I just read an article in people magazine (hey, I was stuck in a waiting room) about the 'horse boy' who was a 'severely disabled' autistic boy. His parents tried everything to no avail, he was not learning, speaking, interacting, nothing. He would have horrible temper-tantrums for hours, until he escaped and ran out to the woods where he would calm down. He would look at the trees or watch the insects and wild animals and he was calm and happy.

One time he ran to the neighbors pasture where there were several horses around. He ran RIGHT up to a horse, his father saw this and panicked, but the horse reacted well. The boy has since taken to riding horses and working with animals and has completely 'recovered'; he is above his ages reading level, has normal if not extraordinary social skills and is succeeding in everything.

It was for the most part a wonderful article. Until it turned to commentary from the 'experts' who said that horseback riding uses rhythm and balance which is what autistics need and thats why it helped him. What a load of crap - how can they not see the plain truth in front of them: our world and our society is terribly separated from the natural world around us, we abuse nature and we abuse animals, and it is all to our own detriment. There are many stories like this kids where "disabled" children when given the chance to reconnect with nature or animals have a complete recovery - often going beyond "normal" to being geniuses of various sorts - they are the ones who could after all perceive there was a problem to begin with.

Anyhow, all dreams aside, one can only accomplish so much before they complete their own credentials. I'm in a PhD program at the moment in Neuroscience & Behavior after which I hope to teach at a university and reopen my animal training business, and with a PhD under my belt I may get taken seriously enough to work with humans as well.

Many people who are seen as "disabled" are merely misunderstood and it is our society which is disabled in not being able to understand someone who does not fit the cookie cutter mold for a human that we have created. Most "problem dogs" or animals are also merely misunderstood. While pit-bulls have the muscular build to attract crazy people to train them to be mean, they are by their nature one of the most passive and patient dogs.

It is not the dogs nor the disabled who need rehabilitation - it is our society. But in the absence of a means to that ends we can teach the "problem animals" and "disabled" children how to interact with this troubled society in a productive manner... I figured it out pretty well, regardless of what was said/expected of me when I was young.

the more I write back and forth with you AG the more and more I like you, your goals and ideals are pure insperation, something this world lacks more everyday. The pits in the prog. I would love to get active in are not what so many think angry and a danger, the people who made them that way are. Everytime I hear and see these dogs get put down and the owner getting a 1000 dollar fine maybe 6 months in jail and these dogs lose there lives. Your ideas of nature being part of humans basic needs in spot on. Well I hope you have a good day.