White Front sleeping problem

Hello all!
New here but I have a question.
I have a White Front Amazon and a Yellow Naped.
My question is about the White Front. He is about 20 years old and has developed a problem I think.
When he is sleeping, he no longer buries his beak behind his wing, but instead just places his head forward.
As time passes, his head will drop lower and lower until it is down about his perch height.
Sometimes, he rests his beak on his perch to sleep.
He hasn't fallen or lost his balance though.
Before, when he was burying his beak, he would slowly lean sideways to the point of almost falling over, then wake up and right himself, but now he doesn't bury his beak.
My vet did a blood test and the only thing he said was that his white cell count was low.
We put him on Metacam and he doesn't seem to be improving (been 5 days), about .05 - .1 ml every 24 hours.
I thought he might be suffering from arthritis, that is why we are trying the Metacam... don't know though.
Now the vet thinks it might be a virus and wants to try an antibiotic (don't know which yet).
He also said that it might be something in the bird's brain that is affecting balance.
He is eating Harrison's pellets, drinks water, is active when awake, seems to have no problem climbing around, just when he is trying to sleep.
Does anyone have a clue as to what this might indicate?
My vet is supposed to know birds and worked with birds in the zoo, and is the VCA animal hospital... don't know if he is that good.

Welcome to the forums Bill.....

Unless you have a firm diagnosis, treatment will always be subjective and since nobody has yet translated parroteese into a recognized spoken language, we have to trust in the veterinarians we take our birds to.....and.....if we are not fully confident with our veterinarian, we often go looking for a new one.....

There are a couple of Californians on right now, maybe they could offer some vet names you could check out.....

Good luck.....

Welcome to the forum.

I'm so sorry to hear your White Front isn't feeling well. I surely hope your vet can figure out what the cause is.

Here are some avian vets in Cali:

Crackers said:

My top two choices in Southern California:


The Bird Clinic-Dr. Nemetz
200 South Tustin Street, Suite E
Orange, CA 92866-2322
For Appointments or Medical inquiries please call: (714) 633-2910
http://www.thebirdclinic.com/


Greek and Associates-Dr. Tom Greek
23687 Via Del Rio Yorba Linda, CA 92887
714.463.1190 / 866.940.7028
http://tomgreek.com/

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mele said:

I have two great Avian vets depending on where Im working

Raymond Veterinary Hospital
959 S.Raymond Ave, Pasadena, CA 91105
626-441-1137

Nile Point Veterinary Hospital, Inc
2007 Niles St, Bakersfield, CA 93305
661-327-9516

Both vets also care for reptiles.

Nile Point-Great with post care and bereavement.

ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center
888-426-4435
[email protected] (for non-emergency info)
http://www.apcc.aspca.org

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Interesting situation. I hope a diagnosis is found soon. Have you considered padding the bottom of the cage or lowering the perch just in case the bird does get to the point of losing its balance?

From what I read, he does sleep. He doesn't fall. He just doesn't bury his beak. If he seems to become off-balanced he wakes up and adjusts himself.

I don't think I've ever seen Skittles bury his beak, when he sleeps, but he appears to be sleeping.

For the longest time I have been a "right-side" sleeper, recently, I have begun to sleep more on my left side, but it doesn't appear to affect my sleeping.

Could it possibly be, that after 20 years of beak burying, he has simply decided to change his preferred sleeping posture?

With as many problems as can surface with our avian friends, unless he exhibits other "symptoms", this one appears to be a minor concern.

Another concern I have is the white blood count. I may be wrong, but, I believe white blood cells tend to increase with the presence of illness. Has the vet maintained any history of baseline WBC counts for this bird? Could it be that when healthy he has a lower than expected WBC count?

Other questions, is he eating OK? How are his daily activities, compared to the past? Feathers, eyes, vent and nares look healthy? How are his interactions with you? Any changes in mood, play, eating that might also indicate changes in his health. (I keep saying "he" and I can't remember if it is a he or she.)

Best of Luck!

Forbey

(Not a Veterinarian, don't even play one on TV!.)

weco said:

Welcome to the forums Bill.....

Unless you have a firm diagnosis, treatment will always be subjective and since nobody has yet translated parroteese into a recognized spoken language, we have to trust in the veterinarians we take our birds to.....and.....if we are not fully confident with our veterinarian, we often go looking for a new one.....

There are a couple of Californians on right now, maybe they could offer some vet names you could check out.....

Good luck.....

Click to expand...

Yes I know "parroteese" is a real tough one! They don't let us know until it is (usually) too late or very advanced.
I am fairly confident with the vet I am seeing now, just wondered if anyone else has an opinion.
My vet seems to be doing the best he can, and I do like his ability to listen to me and my bird,
Thank you for your ideas!
Bill

Merlee said:

Interesting situation. I hope a diagnosis is found soon. Have you considered padding the bottom of the cage or lowering the perch just in case the bird does get to the point of losing its balance?

Click to expand...

I have moved the perch very low just in case he does fall. It is now about 6 inches from the bottom so a fall would not be dangerous.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Bill

forbey said:

From what I read, he does sleep. He doesn't fall. He just doesn't bury his beak. If he seems to become off-balanced he wakes up and adjusts himself. Yes, that is correct.

I don't think I've ever seen Skittles bury his beak, when he sleeps, but he appears to be sleeping.

For the longest time I have been a "right-side" sleeper, recently, I have begun to sleep more on my left side, but it doesn't appear to affect my sleeping.

Could it possibly be, that after 20 years of beak burying, he has simply decided to change his preferred sleeping posture? HHmmm.. that is a possibility. I just always thought that birds normally bury their beaks, and when he used to, he would almost fall over seemingly due to possible arthritis in the leg that he was standing on.

With as many problems as can surface with our avian friends, unless he exhibits other "symptoms", this one appears to be a minor concern. I am glad you said that as it puts my mind a little more at ease. My vet has sort of alluded to that also.

Another concern I have is the white blood count. I may be wrong, but, I believe white blood cells tend to increase with the presence of illness. Has the vet maintained any history of baseline WBC counts for this bird? Could it be that when healthy he has a lower than expected WBC count? Unfortunatley, this vet has only done this one recent blood draw so he doesn't have a history, but my previous vet has done blood before so I will have to dig out the old record and compare. My vet does want to try a med for a possible virus now though, so I'll have to see what happens. I know with birds it sometimes is a "try something and wait and see" game.

Other questions, is he eating OK? Yes, eats the same as always and drinks the same also. Poops look unchanged as well, good color, good urates, good urine. (I keep a very close eye on this as I know it is a good indication of changes/illness).
How are his daily activities, compared to the past? Still very active during the day and evening, climbing, yaking, playing...
Feathers, eyes, vent and nares look healthy? All appear good and not changed. Yes they look the same.
How are his interactions with you? Any changes in mood, play, eating that might also indicate changes in his health. (I keep saying "he" and I can't remember if it is a he or she.) Yes I THINK he is a HE?!?!?! He has always been on the nasty side with me, but at times I can handle him, other times he tries to poke a hole in my finger/earlobe, and has succeeded a few times! OUCH! All of the attriubtes you mention don't seem to have changed either, this is what frustrates me the most as there doesn't seem to be any real indication, subtle or otherwise, of something going on, but I also know that birds are very good at hiding illness.

Best of Luck! Thank You Forbey for your insight!

Forbey

(Not a Veterinarian, don't even play one on TV!.)

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Had to add characters so I could post my reply....

I wanted to thank all of you for posting your ideas and opinions so quick! WOW I wasn't really expecting such a fast response!

One more thing I forgot to mention, although I don't THINK this applies..

I have eaten Marie Calender's frozen dinners in the past and always wondered what the trays are made of.
I wrote ConAgra (the makers of the dinners) and asked what the trays are made of... haven't heard yet, but looking at how the food doesn't stick to the tray, I wondered if they had a Teflon coating on them.
They don't say, and from what I have read they don't contain any.

Also, his condition has been around alot longer than I have been eating MC frozen dinners so I doubt this is a case of Teflon poisoning.

His cage is closer to the kitchen than my Yellow Naped as well.

BTW... his name is Toots (from the movie "The Bank Dick" by W.C. Fields) and the Yellow Naped is Luiji (from her former owner and friend that I know from birth and who got me into birds... she passed away a few years ago and I inherited Luiji... that was our agreement between the two of us).
I think Juili is female because she makes clucking noises when I stroke her back, and the tail comes up... a mating gesture I think.

Bill

I just uploaded a video of Toots sleeping so you can see what I am trying to describe. It is a mix of motion triggered movement and 1 minute timelapse.

[ame=http://youtu.be/WM0-cLNwEIA]toots - YouTube[/ame]

During the day, when he naps, he holds his head up straight and high though.

I just received a response from ConAgra and this is what the tray is made of:
Our trays are made of CPET (Crystallized Polyester)

So it looks like the tray is ok and not toxic.

I got a copy of Toots's bloodwork and the highs and lows are:

WBC 3.3 should be 4.0-10.0
Phosphorus 1.3 should be 3.0-5.5
Chloride 120 should be 90-110

All other chemistries are within range but Sodium is 156 should be 140-160, Uric Acid is 9.0 should be 2.0-10.0.
I mention these because, to me, they seem close to the high limit.

Talked to my vet and now we are doing more drugs.
.05 ml of Enrofloxacin (every 12 hours), 0.9ml of Nystatin (every 12 hours) and .05 ml of Metacam every 24 hours.
Started today, Thursday 6/6/2013... accidentley got some in his airway and now he is shaking his head a little, but the 0.9 ml is alot for my little guy and he does NOT like to be toweled for his meds... really puts up a fight, but I have done this before and it has always been a fight.
We'll see how he reacts.
I found some old blood work on him and his WBC count for the last ~6 years has been around 3-4 so this doesn't seem to be something new (the WBC count).
I gave a copy of the tests to my vet so he can look them over as well.

Just another quick question....
I give my guys treats (like 1 or 2x a day).
The treats consist of raw pasta noodles (they are about 1"long and tubular, Toots's "crunchy") and both of them get an almond (unsalted, not dry roasted, just plain Blue Diamond brand almond).
Toots sometimes also gets about a cube of low fat, part skim milk, Precious mozzarella cheese (roughly about 1/4" cube) ONLY once a day if that.
Are these treats bad in the very small quantity that I am giving them in your opinion?

I appreciate everyone's input and comments. I have had birds for about 25 years and have asked my vets these same questions but the responses I have gotten don't really define whether or not these things are really bad.
I know fat is a real big bad thing for birds, but not really deadly in very small quantities.

I'll repeat this, I am not a Vet (well, I'm a Veteran, not a Veterinarian, LOL)

Watching his sleeping video, his breathing doesn't look labored, he doesn't appear uncomfortable, he sleeping doesn't appear "fitful".

It appears his WBC count is where it has always been in the past.

I get the opinion that the Vet is grabbing at straws to treat an illness he hasn't confirmed.

What risks are there of side effects to applying antibiotics, viral remedies or other treatments and are those possible side effects potentially worse than the "illness"?

Any Vets on here that agree (or disagree) with my questions?

I certainly hope nothing is wrong with your little buddy!

Best of luck,

Forbey

Thank you Forbey for taking the time to look at my video and for your response.
I agree that the vet may be grasping at straws and doesn't really know what is going on as is very possible with parrots... they hide sickness until it is too late!
I, too, am wondering what the side affects of all the meds I am giving him.
I am watching Toots very carefully and will continue to give him his meds BUT if I see ANYTHING that looks suspicious, I am giving the vet a call.
I would appreciate anyone else's opinion or ideas as to where else to look, or should I just keep up with the meds, or stop them.
I am at a real loss right now, and am scared about loosing him as I have already lost an African Grey of 20 years... really devastated me!

Thanks again for everyone's help and input!

Just an update on Toots...
Basically, no change in his sleeping.. still droops his head, rests his beak on the perch.

He is still active during the day, climbing up and down his cage (his cage door is open when I am home and awake), doing what my Yellow Naped is doing.

I went to another vet that I used to go to, for a second opinion and she didn't have any ideas either, but will check with me later this week.

I now have him on Vibramycin (0.7 ml/2x per day) only.
He has been getting this since June 17, although the last 3-4 times, he has upchucked about 1/3 to 1/2 of what I have given him... I think I gave it to him too fast though (I hope that is all it is).

I am going to call the "primary" vet and see what he says...

I have also been doing some "research" on the net' and have come across similar symptoms pointing to cancer... I HOPE NOT!!! But weakness in the left foot pointed to it... I hope I am wrong though!

He does seem to "try" and sleep alot (probably because he doesn't get very much sleep).

I will keep all updated!
thanks for your input/ideas/suggestions!
PS.... I just went through my videos of Toots, and he was sleeping like this on 5/21, and I think he started a few weeks before that, I just noticed this on the 21st and started recording his sleeping.

As of 6/27, he seems to have improved ever so slightly. At least his head doesn't drop to the perch when he sleeps.
I made an appointment with my vet for Wednesday, 7/3, and we are going to do Xrays to see if 1) broken bones, 2) anything he might have swallowed in the past that is still in his system (he does have a few bells and the clappers on a couple are missing) or
3) cancer (I really hope not!).

Wish me luck!

Please let us know what the vet thinks. I don't have any real advice but have been following your thread with interest. Good luck.

Thank you Henpecked... I will keep all updated if anything significant happens and what the vet "sees" in the Xray on Wednesday.
I really appreciate any and all ideas from everyone.
This is really getting me down, but with the latest slight improvement, things seem to be looking up.
Thanks!

I'm hoping for the best for Toots! Please let us know how she's doing.