very slow progress

The person who I got Harley from assured me that he was a very social bird, and would step up to anyone. He told me he would freely roam around his store and anyone could pick him up. I realize he's only been with us a few days, but it's difficult for me to believe he was that way. He shies away from hands, and will nip any body part trying to approach him. If he was in a busy store with that much interaction, wouldn't he be warming up to hands by now? Or am I expecting too much, based upon my expectations from what I'd been told?

I am working on clicker training today. If any part of him touches my hand I click him and give him a treat.

Yep... You are expecting too much right now. Harley is in new surroundings, he is adjusting. Give him some time and don't flood him. If he were my bird, each time I approached I would just talk softly to him w/o any touching, get him use to my presence. After a while i would start to offer him something he might like. A seed, piece of bread or cracker, or a piece of fruit (apple, banana, etc.) When you offer him a treat allow, him to walk over to you, this way its his choice. But don't touch him. Just get him used to 'your' hands. Talk softly, move slowly, and be patient. It took me over a month to get Rio to even take something from me. Rio was raised around kids and her breeder. She was very used to being handled. Being in a new surrounding, new sights and sounds made her nervous. I'm sure it's no different with Harley.

Congratulations on your new baby from ,y experience with pickles it took approximately two weeks before she would let me touch or handle her, I did give her a lot of attention and treats to warm her up to me, now she accepts food from my hands and licks my hands, plays and climbs onto me hands up to my elbow, she does not go onto my shoulder like kiwi though but I ve had kiwi since she was 5 weeks old. Just be patient with your baby with time you ll be able to bond with and play with your new fid

The guy told me it should only take him a day to settle in because he'd been used to a lot of commotion all around him. Last night he started talking and laughing, so he seemed to be comfortable.

I'm SO new to birds of this calibur and I want to do everything right by him. I'll keep up with the clicker training and won't try to rush things. It's just that I know he'll be so much happier spending time outside cage. But if he won't freely step up, I won't have a way to get him to safety if need be.

Gizmomania said:

The guy told me it should only take him a day to settle in because he'd been used to a lot of commotion all around him. Last night he started talking and laughing, so he seemed to be comfortable.

I'm SO new to birds of this calibur and I want to do everything right by him. I'll keep up with the clicker training and won't try to rush things. It's just that I know he'll be so much happier spending time outside cage. But if he won't freely step up, I won't have a way to get him to safety if need be.

Click to expand...

I think your doing fine, your eager and that's great! Just go more at Harley's pace rather than pushing him too much at this stage of the things. Pushing a little is okay, but flooding is not and you will not get the results your looking for.

OMG, my 14 year old son continued on with the step up clicker training, and he was able to get Harley to step up once! Unfortunately he received a few nips during the process, one of which drew blood when he'd put one foot on his hand.

So exciting!!! Quick progress is being made!

It seems to take forever doesn't it? 10 months later and my CAGs still aren't fully willing to step up, especially from their cage.

It definitely seems like it takes forever... Seems like you over one hurtle and then the next hurtle is right there, staring at you. Ugh!

For me my biggest problem right now Rio is biting everyone except me.

I can really relate to your ups and downs with Harley. What has been bothering me is that it seems that you were told one thing and the baby has arrived contradicting with what you have been told. That is hard to have expectations and they are not met.

I have had that happened to me with a baby parrot where I had expectations and the baby was unable to meet them. This was more like I was having to change my mindset about my baby and move forward to help the baby. The baby was so afraid I could not get him out of the cage without getting bit. My hands use to be so sore with the need to get him out of cage everyday. I did it anyway but for his species I incorporated what they call "intense love therapy" where I wrapped him up in a baby blanket laid him on my chest and I would quietly speak to him and sing to him. I also tweaked his diet and changed his sleeping schedule by giving him a night cage in a back bedroom so he could get solid uninterrupted sleep. I almost gave Joaquin back to the breeder because he seemed so unhappy in my home. We worked though his adjustment issues and he ended up being the best pet therapy parrot I ever had.

I have had the hard adjustments and I have had very easy adjustments but what was always consistent is what work I put into my babies they blossomed and eventually became wonderful companions..every single one of my babies.

How old is Harvey. He is probably an older baby right? From what I understand Panama's are suppose to have really laid back personalities and take the changes and roll with stress better than most parrots even taking individualism into account. Personally I had expected Harley to of settled in a bit better but since he is still adjusting I would take it down to the most basic level and begin from square one. That is basically what I had to do with my Solomon Island Eclectus Joaquin.

I know this parrot will come around and be a really good companion for you and your family. For now I would have one person work with Harley until he is taught confidence and feels more secure and settled in.

With any bird, in a new environment they would freak out, that's nothing unusual. For me I work with ALL my birds from day one and I can get them to step up regardless even when I go to people's house to help to train their bird. Most recent is Lola and I got her to step up pretty quickly while she was still at Heather's home. Prior to her it was a African Grey from a friend who needed my help. He couldn't get him to step up what so ever without being attacked. K, I got bit twice but that was expected since he doesn't know me from atom. Then I work with him and work with him. I got him to repeatedly stepping up over and over for me. I was only there for 30min. It just depends on how you train your birds. The only issue bird that I've ever had was Java the U2, but even he will step up for me, he is more psychological problem....Keep working on your training as it will improve over time. I've trained countless birds since I raised them and take in rescues as well....Just be consistent and patient, everything will work out in time.

Lol you're doing great! Nika was an angel at the rescue, I visited with her 6 times before I brought her home. She was an angel the first day...then BOOM! She turned into the devil bird from hell for about 3 weeks. Did nothing but bite and scream. I'd say you're making splendid progress, it's a roller coaster the first few months. You'll question if you made the right decision. You'll get bit. A lot. And then it gets better.

I don't agree with forcing issues. I believe in showing animals the same respect I would show another human being and I would never dream of insisting a stranger did anything for me, much less force him to touch me so I don't approve of training birds from day one. I let them become comfortable with my presence and to realize, on their own time, that I represent no threat to them, that my hands only bring good things and that, if they don't want to step up for me, it's OK.

Getting bit forcing a bird to do something the bird obviously does not want to do doesn't seem like a good foundation for a relationship to me but then I am not like most other people who have birds and I deal with wild-caught and abused birds so that might be the reason for the difference in approach.

Personally, I would not insist on the bird stepping up until I have established some sort of relationship with the bird. Once I see the bird feels comfortable with me and approaches me on his own, that's when I ask. If it's given, it's great but, if it's not, it's OK, too. It takes time and it takes patience and it takes persistence but it works for me.

I believe gaining trust is the way to go as well. I don't believe in taking a bite, if the bird doesn't want to step up yet don't force it, walk away.
When I got my amazon it took him 2 months before he got on my arm the first time and then another couple of months before he did it when asked. Now he step on my arm/hand when asked and even when not LOL
It was slow in the beginning, he wasn't ready to be touched, now we have nightly preening sessions and he is a huge love bug.
Take your time and build the relationship.

Personally I would never advocate "force" in any interaction of a parrot. If it be a rescue or a just weaned baby forcing a parrot to do anything is not the way to go at all.

Sometimes a baby parrot needs to be nurtured more and taught confidence. Without confidence they are afraid and stressed. With training any animal positive reinforcement has always been successful and I will not use any other method. Sure sometimes it takes longer to train but I would rather have every interaction be a positive one and it take longer than to use any kind of force.

With the example of Joaquin I visited him while he was at the breeders ever other weekend so when he came home to me we were not a stranger to him. He had severe adjustment issues for many reasons and was my hardest baby to help adjust to our family and home. Joaquin needed to be taught confidence and learn he had nothing to fear from us. This took time. This took a LOT of time and I went at his pace. I also reached out for help from one of the best known Eclectus breeder and she helped me understand what Joaquin needed and how to help him. This is were I learned about "Intense love therapy" and in the end this helped Joaquin learn confidence and helped him learn he was safe. Singing to him helped him relax and he rather enjoyed it. When ever stressed I sang to him. When he was very ill I sang to him. During his last moments on earth I sang to him as he made his transition to the rainbow bridge. Never once did I ever force Joaquin to do anything when he came home or ever when he was working in pet therapy.

I also have a rescue that is a savage biter. He will tear the flesh and I have a scar from interacting with him. Julio has bonded to Lupe and does not want any handling from anyone else including me. Never have I had such a hard case because it has always been my experience that parrots naturally like me. Not being able to handle Julio has been hard on me but I WILL go only at HIS pace. If he never wants to step up for me or be touched by me then I HAVE to accept this. I talk and sing to him all the time, never would I ignore him. I will handle Valentino in front of him while he watches but I will never force him to step up for me. I even clean his cage with him in it because I will not force him to do anything. It is important that Julio feel safe, happy and that he enjoys himself. I will not do things to add to his stress.

I have had babies adjust right away and I have had babies that needed a LOT of work adjusting but in the end they do get there. They learn confidence and learn trust and eventually will bond to us. Every parrot is a individual even within the same species and depending on the individual is how I handle each situation.

Side note. Valentino my RFM came to me with the most confidence I have ever seen in a baby parrot. I believe this is because of the excellent care he got from his breeder and because I never had him clipped. He was fully flighted and had very good flying skills. I was very delighted and amazed with Valentino's confidence and with this confidence his adjustment went very smooth.

Gizmomania said:

The person who I got Harley from assured me that he was a very social bird, and would step up to anyone. He told me he would freely roam around his store and anyone could pick him up. I realize he's only been with us a few days, but it's difficult for me to believe he was that way. He shies away from hands, and will nip any body part trying to approach him. If he was in a busy store with that much interaction, wouldn't he be warming up to hands by now? Or am I expecting too much, based upon my expectations from what I'd been told?

I am working on clicker training today. If any part of him touches my hand I click him and give him a treat.

Click to expand...

Please take it slow with Harley.

I honestly don't know if I necessarily believe what the person told you about Harley, especially if he shies away like this.

Everything is new to him right now. New sounds, new faces, new home, new everything. I would just leave him in his cage, and have him observe your daily activities. Of course you can do regular cage maintenance, but don't try and force him out. Let him get to know you and your voice. You can sit by his cage and talk to him, read to him and/or sing to him softly. Try not to tower over him when you do this, and perhaps avoid direct eye contact until you see he is comfortable and relaxed. Then start offering him tidbits of food. First through the cage, then with the door open offer it directly to him.

He will come around, there's no doubt in my mind. Some trust faster than others, but once he feels comfortable and confident, he will surprise you - pleasantly, I hope.

Thanks everyone. I have to admit that my expectations were way too high after hearing from his previous owner how easily he went to anyone and everyone before he came here. And that he'd never bitten anyone before. After reading all your suggestions and recommendations, I've definitely taken it all in and have stepped back, although my 14 year old son continues to work him with the clicker training and treats every time one of his feet touches his hand as he reaches for that treat. I've been touching or massaging his toes if he's gripping the bars if he gives me a signal that it's 'ok'.

I think he's beginning to relax a little, as his vocalizations have increased. He already has quite a vocabulary of sounds and short phrases already. He's beginning to respond back to us now as well whenever we speak to him.

There's SO much I must learn, and I truly want to do right by him.

You'll both learn together. He's looking for his place in your flock. Be confident, out going, be a leader. He might try and intimated you , but that's just instinct testing to make sure the strongest, smartest bird is leading the flock. When i heard he was 7-8 months old i was worried that this would be the case. It's hard for a breeder who sells babies to keep a baby tame that long. They have to spend tons of extra time keeping that bird socialized. Yes ,it's their obligation, but still many birds that don't sell early are a trial to "tame" back down. He's still very young and although it might be a struggle, it will be so much worth it in the end. A year from now ,you'll be giving good advice to others and be a happy parront. Amazons are very adaptable , you just need to give them good boundaries.A few days is nothing, i'm still learning (and so is she) after 43 yrs.

It's agonizing how slowly this training process is going. However, I'm definitely counting my blessings. Harley hasn't bitten me in three days now, probably because I'm learning how to read him better! Today he kept one foot on my hand for a solid 12 minutes, while I fed him seeds and touched his beak! He just doesn't feel comfortable enough yet to place his second foot on my hand.

I've added several new shots of Harley standing on top of his cage.

Actually that's awesome progress good job! If you can get a foot on your finger that's pretty big!

Don't expect steady progress because it never happens that way. They do regress and they do 'push' the envelope back every now and then so don't get discouraged when and if he bites or refuses to allow you to touch him at all. The progress has to be measured overall and over a long period of time.