Hypothesis: Breeders are creating problem birds

I have a hypothesis that I would like to hear your thoughts on.

I notice that when birds are aggressive, they are often rehomed as "breeders". After talking with a handful of breeders, I've found that the majority of their birds, particularly amazons and other large birds, were one-time pets that became breeder birds after being aggressive or problematic.

Well, I know with other animals, like dogs or rats, breeders will breed the animals that have the best temperaments, because it has long been known that temperaments are largely nature, not as much nurture.

I think that breeders are creating more problems for pet birds as a whole when they breed from these problematic rehome birds, because I think it makes each subsequent generation more likely to be aggressive, pluckers, etc.

Imagine how friendly our amazons would be if only the sweet birds were ever set up for breeding.

Your thoughts?

That's a interesting thought. I'd like to hear what the people experienced with breeding on the forum think of it.

Personally I think any bird can be a amazing bird if someone is willing to work with them, and it;s more likely their life experiences that affect temperament rather than breeding. But I'm not interesting in breeding so I'm just speculating.

I've talked to some breeders who believe that the best breeder birds are those that were hand raised. Hand raised parrots are less likely to freak out and accidentally kill their chicks than parent raised birds are.

If that theory were true, parrots shouldn't be plucking, biting, screaming their heads off and having other bad behaviors that are 99% of the time seen mostly within captive birds.




Think about it. Parrots are not born 'bad' birds. They don't hatch out knowing to bite, scream, pluck, mutilate, etc. These are *learned* behaviors.


Just as much as human babies are *NOT* born serial killers, rapists, drug addicts, etc.

I'm not saying these birds are bad birds. I'm saying they are not good pets. Wolves do not make good pets either. Selecting traits we like, and only breeding dogs that mesh well with people is how we have a variety of dog breeds that all, more or less, make fantastic pets, despite the fact that wolves do not.

I think if we select (as breeders) birds that are non-aggressive, non-pluckers, that react well to the stress and commotion of a household, then we will be on our way to developing better pet birds.
Right now we seem to be doing the opposite. If a bird is a screamer, biter, plucker, etc., we put them in the breeding pool because they aren't good for much else (general public opinion). I think this is a mistake, because just by looking at any other animal humans have bred, you can see that temperament is something that is selected for. And right now we are unintentionally selecting for bad pets.

Typically breeders do not want hand tamed birds, therefore only buying birds that are 'not hand tamed'....there is a reason for this. tame birds do not make good parents.
there are exceptions, but for the most part there is always difficulties in raising clutches

I cannot speak for the larger species of birds, only what I breed, the conures, cockatiels, and lovebirds.

I traded a non-tame female pineapple conure from a clutch I had here. I kept the male, but traded his sister for another female....well Kahlua is the sweetest, cuddliest bird, doesn't bite and always flies to me when she sees me.
Definitely not meant for breeding as she is waaayyyy too attached to humans.
She is currently in with her mate, but really digs me, lol.

I have her out every night and through out the day when I feed the birds, or to check on them.

Personally I would just hate to waste such a sweet personality.

This theory is what Hartman Aviary believes. Hartman Aviary is the aviary that invented the aviator harness. They say that they do not breed birds that are pluckers, aggressive etc. I have been planning to take a visit there. They claim to breed entirely for temperament. We also have to remember that birds are wild they are not domesticated. We also have to remember as stated above, hand tame birds are very rarely good breeders. There is another point to be made and that is I believe that most times it is "nurture" not "nature" that makes birds into pluckers, aggressive etc. These same birds given the opportunity to live free would be entirely different.

I think that it is indeed part nurture, but for amazons especially, when the ones that end up as breeders usually do so for extreme aggressive behavior, which could coincide with particularly bad hormonal shifts, if you breed a bird with those behaviors, you're only going to be making offspring that has those behaviors (or particularly bad hormonal spikes) too.

There are lots and lots of amazons that are treated very well by their owners and still become beasts that cannot be handled without thick gloves. People do not need to be breeding from these birds, but sadly, that is what is making up a significant portion of the breeding amazons in captivity, primarily because they are sold so cheaply and thus maximize a breeder's profit.

We need to be selectively breeding for traits compatible with being kept as a pet, IMHO.

As I've bred for years I have to disagree! Each individual baby are sweet to begin with, it's usually their first owner that trained them improperly to begin with that caused most of the issues, sometimes it is the breeder's fault as their beginning stage is the most utterly important stage. I've seen meanest parents raising the sweetest babies. Cause if you go by traits like that, would it occur in humans as well? Meaning idiot to idiot make an idiot? That's very much untrue!!! Your only able to hypothesize but you've never bred before yourself. And I know many breeders that bred pluckers and their offsprings are just fine! There is selective breeding by breeding the best stocks together but it doesn't always happen like that as birds are like people, they pick who they like, they don't always appreciate you picking for them. It's like asking you to marry someone who you have no interest with and someone whom you dislike.

Parrots don't scream incessantly out in the wild. Parrots rarely *EVER* bite to draw blood in the wild. If a parrot plucks, it is *ONLY* due to a medical condition, out in the wild. Parrots do not dominate each other out in the wild.


Although I like the theory of not breeding problem parrots, these issues do not exist in the wild... our parrots came from the wild.


Ya, sure, wolves may not make good pets and dogs do, but dogs are domesticated. As stated, parrots aren't.


My mitred conure is a first generation captive raised parrot as his breeder bought two wild caught birds and bred them, one time. He acts *NO* different from any other conure really. He's loud, he's nippy, he easily gets offended, he demands attention, he's cuddly, he's hilarious, he loves scritches. He's not a wild parrot. He's a captive bird with captive traits.

If the theory were true, then he shouldn't act like a captive raised bird. He should be acting like his parents. Afraid. Skittish. Fearful. (not that I ever met them! the breeder gave the pair to a friend of hers after she bred them one, and I got him when he was 12 years old)


This bird, I can lay him on his back in the palm of my hand and toss him in the air and he does nothing! I can "throw" him around on my hand and he gets a big kick out of it! I leave him somewhere and he flies after me!!!!!


Regardless of the fact that his parents are wild birds, he is not.

If that were the case my Hunter would be quite a maniac. Her parents were WC YN Amazons, and boy were they something. Cleaning their aviary was always an adventure, and my GF had to go in there with a net and protective gear for her own safety.

They were fantastic parents, and knew how to raise a clutch though.

Your theory is wrong on so many levels. I don't know where to start. Don't know what breeders you talked to but most breeders like me have zero use for pet,xpet and even handraised birds. We do breed for temperament, but wild caught parrots make the best pets and breeders. Our breeder birds cost more than pet birds and we buy them young, raise them to be breeder birds.IMO there's more well adjusted pet amazons around now than there ever was before. It's owners who are screwing them up and we're educating owners to be better parronts. Your " breeders" must be opportunist /hobby breeders who don't have a clue. BTW it's expet who destroy eggs and kill babies. Good breeder amazon are aggressive but they fear humans . It's ex=pets that don't fear humans and are the "biters". Generally speaking my wild caught breeders can be handled when they don't have eggs/babies. It's the rehomes that are truly aggressive and attack. Most good breeders today raise their breeders from babies to be breeders and use the birds with the best traits. You need to talk with a better class of breeder.The good breeders i know are raising 2nd,3rd and even 4th generation of their own amazons. They don't bring new birds into their flock,especially ex-pets.

To be honest, I believe that many of the issues that parrots develop are due to human imprinting and parental deprivation. So many breeders insist on hand feeding their babies, just because the babies are then easier to sell. So, breeders are certainly part of the problem. That's not to say that the people buying the babies are blameless, of course! But if the parrot has been raised right, it'll be better equipped to dealing with humans as an adult.

But pet owners do not want a parent raised bird. They want instant gratification. They want a feathered dog. An animal that instantly loves interaction, companionship, is friendly to everyone, has the ability to talk, do tricks, etc. A bird that takes time to tame and train and is terrified of humans is not what most people think of as an ideal pet parrot.

Many hand raised birds become excellent companions! There's no doubt about that! But others end up getting 'screwed up' often times through no intention of the owner... they just didn't know how to deal with the behavioral problems that started. After they have "tried everything", they give the bird up and/or ignore it.

I think we are confusing apples with oranges and tangerines. There is nature (apples), there is nurture (oranges) and then, with parrots, there is imprinting (tangerines).

Imprinting kind of falls under 'nurture' because it doesn't matter if the parents are wild-caught or hand-fed themselves. If a baby is taken from its parents before it imprints and then it's fed by humans and tricked into imprinting on them, all babies, regardless of what the parents were, will, most likely, be sweet-tempered. Then you have the neglect and abuse factors on these sweet-tempered, hand-fed babies which can turn them into mean, bitey, plucking parrots.

But, on the other hand, nobody can deny that there are inherited behavioral traits. This is the basic principle of the domestication process: you only breed the offspring which presents the characteristics you want to 'set' on the new breed. Leaving aside the huge range of different physical characteristics which are bred into different breeds of dogs, for example, you also have completely different behaviors which ARE inherited - so a retriever would love to carry things in his mouth, a shepherd will 'herd' anything that moves and a Shih-Tzu likes nothing better than laying on top of you. These behavioral traits become set in the breed and all the puppies have them. So, there is a VERY distinct scientific possibility that behaviors like skittishness and plucking in parrots are, up to a point, inherited. I don't know if I believe in the actual behavior been passed on straight from parents to babies but I do believe that as there is no natural selection or any organized attempt to domesticate parrots, most of the pet parrots we know today are vastly inferior both physically and mentally to their wild counterparts. And this will mean that undesirable traits we don't see in the wild, appear in pets. It's a known fact to breeders of other species that nervous parents will produce more nervous puppies than calm parents would. Same thing with aggression. You see owners of AmStaffs constantly insisting on the difference between their dogs and the pitbulls even though they are genetically identical. Why? Because AmStaffs are bred with strict aggression controls (aggressive dogs are never bred) while pitbulls are not. Unfortunately for them, there are a lot of breeders that will breed for size, strength and aggression.

So, is it possible that although the actual behavior is not directly inherited, the pre-disposition to it is? Yes, it is.

I was attempting to address the OP's assertion that breeders are breeding aggressive parrots because they are using aggressive ex-pets as their breeding stock. Ex-pets make poor breeders and opportunistic, unknowledgeble ,hobbyist would be the only ones using such stock.

And I agree that only 'bad' breeders will do it but I think it's happening more and more today (most of the breeders on CL -and there are LOTS nowadays- do it).

While it is true that good breeders of dogs and even some exotic mammals usually breed animals with the personality characteristics they want. There was a time long ago (during Victoria England) that any pit bull that showed aggression to humans was killed on the spot while they spared the ones that only showed aggression to other dogs. However, I do not know if I could say birds are exactly like land animals. I had a pretty much untamed budgie as a child (which I tamed). Clover came to me as a bird rarely handled (and from what I was told her parents weaned her). While Captain Jack on the other hand came to me tame. The cockatiel I had as a child was hand feed and so was Paulie the Green cheek conure. I had the vet tell me Clover was sweet. Yes, she was sweet but it was only because I tamed her. She knew she was a bird and I have no doubt if she had a choice she probably would pick a green cheek conure over a human. Some people may not like hearing this but a bird needs one on one time everyday to stay tame. And if you want a bird that tolerates other people you might consider letting them see people out in public. As much as I love birds I always saw them as animals (in order to be respectful to them). To be honest Captian Jack so far is showing he has Clover beat in personality and he even is showing he is tolerant and will give people a chance. As I said before I think Paulie might had been different towards my family had they showed a interest in them from the start.

We all know that african greys are excellent talkers and many are prone to being nervous birds who are clumsy when young. (I wonder how much of this is due to being clipped before a year old in age)

Amazons are loud, some are more prone to being difficult than others to handle. They are also good talkers and singers.

Macaws range from high strung, to nippy, to cuddly... depending on the species. Hyacinths and greenwings may destroy their cages.

Cockatoos are, in general, very cuddly birds. Certain species tend to be more independent and/or more high strung. They are very destructive birds and can be very loud!

Conures are goofy, nippy, loud, clowny, etc.

Caiques are often full of energy and love to wrestle, surf, and do other funny things....



And the list goes on! Of course, there's going to be exceptions, but it's true that certain parrots will fit within a description, to a lesser or greater degree. That's like how the different dog breeds act. But I don't agree that "bad" breeders result in "bad" offspring... pluckers, screamers, biters, etc.

And I have heard of people thinking that hybrids may be better than pure species, because the hybrids can get the good aspects of both species combined into one... if not for some infertility, this could be a form of "domestication" - creating an animal that would be the "perfect" family pet. The opposite could be true - you could get all the bad traits into one bird.

Found some new and interesting information.... (well, not really new per-say)

Mate aggression in male breeding cockatoos is very common. Males have been known to kill their mates or severely injure them.

One of the possible reasons for this???? Hand raised cockatoos!!!!!!! This easily goes to show that pets don't always make good breeders!

It's possible the mate aggression is seen less in wild caught cockatoos and parent raised cockatoos. So those birds that didn't make good pets???? They may be excellent breeders!!!!!



Really makes you go "hmmmm"! I really understand trying to breed for better pets by breeding birds with good pet qualities, but if hand raised male cockatoos make worse breeders than parent raised or wild caught 'toos, this really doesn't solve anything.



Some links to read in that regard.


BirdsnWays Cockatoo Heaven - Aggression

Mate Aggression in Parrots: Causes, Prevention & Management

http://zoologica.wordpress.com/2008/12/21/living-with-a-cockatoo/



I've also mentioned before that sometimes hand raised birds make better parents than parent raised birds. I think one of the species mentioned was caquies. Here's a page about that. Scroll down to the Artificial Incubation and Handrearing section.

Lima Exotic Birds - THE CARE AND BREEDING OF CAIQUES


The following page mentions that older, hand raised birds are much harder to pair up because they are less likely to accept a mate.

Breeding Caiques (Parrot Mania)




As I've also stated, some breeders raise their offspring differently. They may produce parent raised chicks, hand raised chicks, and hand raised chicks meant to become breeders. All these birds are raised differently, with different goals in mind. This in turn may determine how well these birds are as breeders or as pets.



So in short, just because birds don't make good pets doesn't mean that they can't make good breeders. And just because they do make good pets doesn't mean that they'd make good breeders.

Your "preaching to the choir" , i've stated many times that pets and handraised parrots make very poor breeding stock. I purchase or raise only parent raised babies as breeders, and typically they cost more than handraised pets because of the loss of production from having breeders occupied with raising babies instead of producing more eggs.