Aggression, Protecting or Scared

groovieguy · Jan 13, 2015

I think I have talked about the way ZaZu acts around my son. Today he got a little more zealous. What are your thoughts about this behavior? I am wanting to let his feathers grow out but am a little concerned that if he can fly will he attack my son? Any suggestions are appreciated. He will let my son give him treats, but that is about it.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GITwM5IKps&feature=youtu.be"]Zazu Chase - YouTube[/ame]

Birdman666 · Jan 13, 2015

Looks like typical Hot 3 amazon establishing and protecting territory to me, MOST LIKELY BREEDING SEASON RELATED...

1. Don't run.
2. Teach your son how to properly towel a bird.
3. Keep a towel nearby just in case.

This is hormonally driven, I suspect. And yes, in all likelihood, he would be in attack/dive bomb mode if flighted based on what I'm seeing. I'd keep him clipped during breeding season as a safety precaution.

But the tail is going, the wings are raised, the head is hunched with the neck feathers up... this zon is NOT playin'!!!

Whether he's simply protecting the territory, or claiming you as a "birdmate issue."

labell · Jan 13, 2015

I agree with Mark this is hormone/aggression. (I am so thankful that Brady doesn't do this) my nape (Karma) that passed many years ago only loved me and for a little over 15 yrs that he lived with me before passing, he would chase EVERYONE else and he could run much faster than most people thought. If he caught you he would bite to do harm.

I agree with having a towel handy in this situation.

Birdman666 · Jan 13, 2015

Been there, done that with Napes, DYH's and BFA's... (8 of them at one point and time! Yeah, breeding season was FUN!!!)

And it's a seasonal, hormonally driven thing, usually territorial, and moving them out of their territory usually greatly diminishes the behavior.

Sometimes it's a "person" (or another bird) trigger. They are trying to claim and defend a person (or another bird) instead of a territory, and it's their proximity to that person that triggers it.

First have a towel handy.

Second, figure out the trigger.

Third, move the bird away from the trigger for a few days.

Fourth, let everyone know what's happening, and what the trigger is so they can be aware of what is likely coming if it's triggered, and they can introduce your bird to Mr. Towel to discourage the behavior...

Fifth, have a towel handy... and watch your fingers and toes...

Sixth, wait for breeding season to end!!!

Birdman666 · Jan 13, 2015

The above scenario, where your son runs away, and the bird gets to be big bad amazon?! THIS REINFORCES THE BAD BEHAVIOR EVERY TIME IT HAPPENS!

And if you are the trigger, then you might be the one who needs to do the toweling and scolding...

I essentially don't run. I grab the towel in response to his display, and show it to him. If he charges me, we play matador and bullfighter. Only instead of Ole, the towel gets dropped on him, he gets wrapped up, and flipped over on his back and held there...

That's "I DON'T THINK SO! HOMIE DON'T PLAY DAT!!!"

If the territory is the trigger, then who ever the bird is charging stands up to the bird, and towels him.

Then he gets a time out, and believe me he will pout, and he will be pissed, so watch your fingers setting him down.

Time out away from "the territory... " NOT ONLY DOES THIS NOT WORK, BUT IF YOU PULL THAT NUMBER, YOU'RE THE ONE WHO GETS DRIVEN OUT OF YOUR SPOT - BIRD! SO YOU MIGHT WANT TO RE-THINK THIS APPOACH!!! That's the message we're trying to send here.

Birdman666 · Jan 13, 2015

He'll go back to his old sweet self once the hormones calm down a little, and he has a chance to adjust in a few seasons. This too shall pass. He isn't defective.

There are just precautions you need to take during breeding season until the behavior stops.

It falls within normal, for a zon, and especially a hot 3 zon. At 6 years old he is right on schedule for this stuff... give him a few seasons to learn to adjust. And with all zons, watch for mood swings during breeding season.

Birdman666 · Jan 13, 2015

RavensGryf said:
I was getting nervous for your son as ZaZu started walking faster lol .

Lots of experienced Amazon people here to help thankfully

I was thinking, BRING IT ON BIRD! LET'S RODEO!!!

I used to have to lasso the DYH for four to five months out of the year. The other half of the year, he was the sweetest bird you ever met! When the hormones hit, he turned into PSYCO-ZON!

When they start to get it, and they do their big bad bird posturing thing, and act like they are about to charge, and then you just unroll the towel and hold it up in front of them... and instead they just stalk back and forth complaining a bit, and retreat to the cage.... MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

And really, that's about all you can expect with the hormonally challenged ones. It's a natural instinct.

Tell a salmon not to swim upstream, or even ask him why he's doing it... (DUDE! A TALKING SALMON!)

groovieguy · Jan 13, 2015

Wow, thanks for all the info. The only trigger I see is when ever my son walks by his home. He also can tell from his footsteps that it is him.
He comes right out and down the ladder, its just been lately that he chases him. I've taken the ladders away but he gets on the floor anyways.

I will keep a towel nearby and try that.

Thanks again everyone.

Another thing, if you notice that when he does his horse imitation he kind of sounds like a deep throat noise then he does the horse. I've watched other YNA and listened to see if they do this when they talk but they don't.
He is trying to talk but hasn't come out yet, he mumbles the sayings but that is about it.

Birdman666 · Jan 13, 2015

Then the cage is the territory. And that's the trigger, and that is the case 90% of the time. (Occasionally they defend a person. Usually they defend a nest.)

It straight textbook territorial zon breeding season stuff.

In the wild, a zon protects and defends his nest from all potential intruders, because without one no lady zon will have him.

Getting him on a playstand in another room where he can't see the nest = nothing to protect. Therefore, the behavior calms down noticably.

Hot 3 amazons were one of the "most dumped" birds down at the rescue for exactly this sort of thing. Because people didn't understand them, or what they were doing.

I've done this particular dance more than once.

This is how you modify/reduce the behaviors.

A hot 3 zon can deglove a finger or a toe, and can inflict enough bite pressure to require a few stitches. So it's not a behavior you want to reinforce or encourage.

Roanoke · Jan 13, 2015

Just wondering, Birdman, will the toweling, scolding and timeout technique work with conures? I've been trying to find a way to stop him from bullying my household. He flies to and attacks almost everybody but me, and will do it in any room whether I'm there or not. He needs to know that he does not run this joint and attacks are 100% unacceptable. Just double checking to make sure there aren't any special rules for little birds. I really like your method.

Birdman666 · Jan 13, 2015

The towel doesn't need to be as thick... but yes, it protects people from the attacking stuff.

BUT...

With the conure it's a different trigger . This isn't hormonally driven/protect the nest/breeding season behavior.

THIS is pair bond bird overbonding!

This stuff stops with your conure when he's had more socialization work. He needs to be handled by more people, other than you.

That's what really stops it. The more he overbonds the worse these behaviors get!

Birdman666 · Jan 13, 2015

Getting back to amazon behavior...

That DYH that tried to maim me?! (Several times a day actually.)

I wish I had my old pictures. Because we took him in the other room and set him down on a playstand to chill... and THE SAME BIRD THAT TRIED TO RIP MY TOES OFF 15 MINUTES AGO let me calmly step him up with my bare hands and kiss him on the beak...

I did it to prove a point.

It's territorial!

(Either that or the bird was so shocked that anyone would even consider doing something that stupid, that he just wasn't prepared to rip my lips off, and I managed to catch him off guard!)

midgewilkins · Jan 13, 2015

I took in a 16 y/o male YNA about 4 months ago. His family had a dire circumstance which wouldn't allow them to keep him so I offered to take him in and either find a proper home for him myself, or keep him if all goes well (before the family had him he was abandoned outside of a pet store) though I had never really had a desire for a large parrot. All went fairly well for a while. He would never get on your arm without biting but overall his behavior was fine and he even welcomed some scritches on his head. One day about a month ago, my mom was feeding him treats as she always does and he for whatever reason launched himself at her face and bit straight through her eyebrow (think extreme eyebrow piercing) he couldn't get his beak out of her skin and was panicking so I had to help him dislodge it. She did go straight to the hospital and luckily there was no major damage except a nasty scar. After that I became nervous of him and he knew it. I thought "what if I get too close to Pablo and he gets my eye!" Believe it or not I wore safety goggles every time I got close. So we were already on the rocks. A few days later I was about 6 feet from his cage with my back turned talking to my sister. He does get spooked at noises but there was nothing to startle him and he half flew half jumped and grabbed onto my arm. I knew if I made a move he would attack. Sure enough I lifted my arm a few inches and his beak was deep in my arm. I took it for as long as possible hoping he would stop but I couldn't take it and shoved him off my arm with a brush I was holding in my other hand. Now I can't get near him. If he sees me, his pupils go in and out, he charges at me, etc. I've tried sitting by his cage and talking to him but he won't warm up. He'll try charging me from inside the cage and then will start aggresively attacking his perch or toy. I can't have my back to him at all without being at least a little nervous. I have contacted behaviorists who mostly only suggested trying to get him on a perch (which is a good idea until you consider the first thing he will do when I open the cage is launch himself at my face). Needless to say I am working with a rescue to get an expirienced home for him. Despite all I've said, he is truly an amazing creature, I just don't have the resources, time or expirience to deal with some of his problems at the moment. Sorry for a whole story but your bird reminded me a lot of him the way he runs.

JerseyWendy · Jan 14, 2015

You've received some outstanding advice already regarding Zazu. I'd only like to add that, even though is does look hysterical, please try not to laugh out loud, because for Zazu that's like 'applause applause...let me continue my chase'.

I had a mature male YN like that once (for a brief period of time). I named him Rambo (for a reason). He was an angel while in quarantine. Then he was introduced to the rest of the flock, laid eyes on my Hunter (mature FEMALE YN), and promptly did a 180 on me. :11:

After clipping his wings, this bird chased me through the house on foot, so I decided I was gonna be brave and 'just' wear some heavy duty boots. Yeah, well, Rambo promptly latched onto the boots while proceeding to climb up my jeans, tearing holes on his way up. And QUICKLY, too.

Amazons in 'that' state are no joke.

I bear the scars to prove it.

Birdman666 · Jan 14, 2015

midgewilkins said:
i took in a 16 y/o male yna about 4 months ago. His family had a dire circumstance which wouldn't allow them to keep him so i offered to take him in and either find a proper home for him myself, or keep him if all goes well (before the family had him he was abandoned outside of a pet store) though i had never really had a desire for a large parrot. All went fairly well for a while. He would never get on your arm without biting but overall his behavior was fine and he even welcomed some scritches on his head. One day about a month ago, my mom was feeding him treats as she always does and he for whatever reason launched himself at her face and bit straight through her eyebrow (think extreme eyebrow piercing) he couldn't get his beak out of her skin and was panicking so i had to help him dislodge it. She did go straight to the hospital and luckily there was no major damage except a nasty scar. After that i became nervous of him and he knew it. I thought "what if i get too close to pablo and he gets my eye!" believe it or not i wore safety goggles every time i got close. So we were already on the rocks. A few days later i was about 6 feet from his cage with my back turned talking to my sister. He does get spooked at noises but there was nothing to startle him and he half flew half jumped and grabbed onto my arm. I knew if i made a move he would attack. Sure enough i lifted my arm a few inches and his beak was deep in my arm. I took it for as long as possible hoping he would stop but i couldn't take it and shoved him off my arm with a brush i was holding in my other hand. Now i can't get near him. If he sees me, his pupils go in and out, he charges at me, etc. I've tried sitting by his cage and talking to him but he won't warm up. He'll try charging me from inside the cage and then will start aggresively attacking his perch or toy. I can't have my back to him at all without being at least a little nervous. I have contacted behaviorists who mostly only suggested trying to get him on a perch (which is a good idea until you consider the first thing he will do when i open the cage is launch himself at my face). Needless to say i am working with a rescue to get an expirienced home for him. Despite all i've said, he is truly an amazing creature, i just don't have the resources, time or expirience to deal with some of his problems at the moment. Sorry for a whole story but your bird reminded me a lot of him the way he runs.

again, this is amazon territorialism. This bird needs to be clipped during breeding season, to stop that attacking faces stuff... For exactly this reason.

And i've already posted in this thread the behavior mods for hormonal zons. That's how you deal with it. Until he's clipped, you really can't work with him AT ALL!

And, exactly, a perch in another room away from "his territory" after he is clipped. Alone. Given a chance to calm down. Good advice from the rescue/behaviorist... now, where have I heard that before... Hmmmm....

Birdman666 · Jan 14, 2015

JerseyWendy said:
You've received some outstanding advice already regarding Zazu. I'd only like to add that, even though is does look hysterical, please try not to laugh out loud, because for Zazu that's like 'applause applause...let me continue my chase'.

This is 100% right.

You reinforce the behavior every single time you do that.

This is not a game, and your zon is not playing. Even if it were a game, it's not a nice game to play.

Having a female amazon in the house makes these behaviors 100 times worse. (I had 2 females, and six foster males dumped for exactly these behaviors during breeding season. Including one DYH that we nicknamed "the mangler." That's the same bird I could kiss on the beak in another room... but didn't dare handle with anything other than a towel in and around "his territory." And never, ever, ever handle a male and female at the same time with bare flesh during breeding season. Or interrupt a mating display. Wait until the bird has finished his little dance before attempting to step him up. He WILL attack 99 times out of 100 if you interrupt him!!!)

Birdman666 · Jan 14, 2015

JerseyWendy said:
After clipping his wings, this bird chased me through the house on foot, so I decided I was gonna be brave and 'just' wear some heavy duty boots. Yeah, well, Rambo promptly latched onto the boots while proceeding to climb up my jeans, tearing holes on his way up. And QUICKLY, too.

Amazons in 'that' state are no joke. I bear the scars to prove it.

Yep. I've had similar experiences.

My napes were all fairly good about it (unless you tried to interrupt them when they were courting. Then they would immediately turn on you and attempt to drive you off!), but I had a BFA that was on the extremely excitable side that used to fly at faces with intent to injure - which is how he came to be with me - and he was kept short clipped during breeding season (a foster, not Pecker, she was female and the most loving creature I have ever encountered) and the DYH of course...

When they start chewing on your shoes is your one chance for toweling. After that, they will charge up your leg... and like the bird in the video, they can be deceptively fast! It's just an instant "OH CRAP!" And the bird suddenly has the upper hand... (Something's gonna be bleeding when that happens.)

And if they're flighted? FORGET ABOUT BEING ABLE TO CONTROL THEM! And they will go after your face... So, absolutely, clip them during breeding season if they get territorial... It is a safety issue!!!

Really the 7-12 age group tend to be the worst offenders on this one. After that they seem to calm down. UNLESS the behaviors have been reinforced to the point where THEY THINK they're in charge...

THESE TWO USED TO DANCE AND PREEN ALL DAY LONG...

NOW as long as they were finished dancing, I could still pick them up and handle them both together, even in breeding season, which is usually a HUGE no-no for amazons who are courting. This is called pushing your luck! But Bob, our foster nape was older, and calmer. He would still bite if you tried to pick him up and he was displaying, but I could still handle them both once they calmed down... (Don't try this at home!) Incidentally that's two zons and three conures. Demitre was hiding behind my neck when this photo was taken. (It was grooming day.)

Birdman666 · Jan 14, 2015

These two really were fond of each other!

Bob was a good bird!

Amanda_Bennett · Jan 14, 2015

Mark, you never cease to amaze me! Your experience and advice are invaluable to those of us who don't have a clue! Seeing and hearing where your birds were and where they are now is so heartwarming and gives the rest of us so much encouragement.

Hearing what you have done with otherwise "throw away aggressive" parrots is helping so many of us out here, and giving us the confidence to work with our birds the "right" way.

I know I for one, have learned so so much from you (and other experienced owners here) and I know Zilla is happy and healthy because of what I have learned here. I went from knowing NOTHING about Amazons to feeling I can do this right!

THANK YOU!!!

Birdman666 · Jan 14, 2015

Well, hot 3 amazons, large toos, and large macaws were really what I ended up working with primarily down at the rescue.

And it really is all about getting the information out there. Because when your sweet loving zon suddenly turns psycho and starts launching himself at people with intent to maim.... WHAT DO I DO?! You can't have a pet go around trying to maim family members...

We saw the same things over and over again... year after year. Anyone who has worked with a few hormonally challenged hot 3's will recognize THIS ONE immediately...

And then it's a combination of reducing the behaviors, and waiting out the seasons. And making sure everyone in the household is on the same page with what's going on.

There ARE hot 3's that simply cannot be handled during breeding season. Most respond fairly well to being stick handled or toweled, and removed from the area they are trying to defend.

With no nest to defend, the behavior simply stops.

It's all about understanding their wild natures.

ESPECIALLY with male amazons and female eckies!!!

Female eckies can also turn quite nasty at times during breeding season.

Aggression, Protecting or Scared

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Zilla & Wing Twitching???

Mack has discovered strawberies!

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