Very bad news

Dear friends and community that I have come to know and love,
today I have gotten the test results of Kobus' day to the avian vet,
and have unfortunately found out that he was tested positive for PBFD.

I am trying to be as coherent as possible as I am typing this through the tears.
When we went to take Kobus for a consult, the vet originally advised against
me getting Kobus tested for PBFD since the chances seemed so slim, and he
was looking very healthy and strong indeed.

And even with what I know now, when I look at Kobus, I see a bluefronted
virile young man. Man, since I also know that "she" is in fact a he after all.

The vet assured me that it could take a while before Kobus would fall ill,
and that she has seen parrots live for twenty years after infection, as rare
as it may be. She also said that there is even a minute chance that a
strong, healthy bird with enough resistance might fight off the disease
to a point that it eventually wouldn't turn up in a bloodtest anymore,
even though those chances are even slimmer.

Needless to say, I feel absolutely devastated and have been crying on and
off ever since I have gotten the news. Luckily my girlfriend remains very
practical and sober and already kicked my butt and told me not to mourn
a living, happy bird, for it is alive and full of joy, and that we should save
mourning for the dead.

I, even moreso, find her attitude to be extremely strong, especially since
Kobus has bonded much more with her than me since we got her, which
might be explainable now that we know that our little princess is actually
a handsome prince.

I have felt an absolutely gutwrenching sense of guilt the entire evening,
since I couldn't talk to or touch and pet Kobus "like normal" without bursting
into tears, and I have the distinct feeling that my little guy doesn't understand
the least of it.

Since I do not know when Kobus was originally infected, and since I have
owned her for only about a year and a half now, for all we know he might
already have been carrying the disease as we got him.

More likely, unfortunately, is the possibility that a cockatiel that my neighbor
bought was sick, in hindsight probably PBFD, and died.
This happened *after* Kobus had spend a weekend at my neighbors, when
we were away for one weekend.

I have also taken Kobus to a pet store of which I knew the owner once,
to get his nails clipped, something I regretted as well, after reading about
the existence of the disease.

In the end, I guess the past is the past and the actual source does no
longer matter. All I know is what I know now.

I have, however, decided that as long as Kobus is the happy bird we know
and love, I will take as good care of him as I can, and will take his joy for
life and situation at the time as my primary interest. My girlfriend has already
opted that we knit him a sweater for if/when he gets bald.

All in all, I am feeling quite miserable, obviously, and I'm not sure what
the future holds. Ofcourse I have read more than I should have, on the
subject, and I know the "clinical" details of the disease.

I know the prognosis on the long run is bad. I know some people think
I should euthanize the bird right now to not see it slide down, but I
can't possibly think of that, not how he is doing now.

The thing that really haunts me, however, is realizing that my paranoia
on the matter was not paranoia, but rather "knowing", yet trying to
convince itself that "I was probably just BEING paranoid".

Now, I guess we're just going to try and keep Kobus happy, wellfed
and strong and keep her resistance up as much as possible.

And, as hard as it's going to be, I'm going to have to be strong and
try to treat Kobus as I would normally, something which suffocates me
thinking about it right now. I hope that will ease down after tonight.

I could use any thought on the matter as we've got a long road ahead,
and *any* advice other than euthanasia is more than welcome.

Love,

Mr and mrs StarWing (and ofcourse Kobus)

I have no advise but my heart is breaking for you! I am so sorry.

1. He should, obviously, be kept away from other birds.

2. He should be retested in two months. This from the vet guide:

"If the bird is not showing any clinical signs of the disease, retest in 2 months to determinewhether this is a transient infection which the bird’s immune system will subsequently clear, in which case the second test will be negative, or whether the bird is a chronic carrier, in which case the second test will be positive. Carriers pose a threat to other birds, and may in time develop clinical signs. There should be no contact with other birds while waiting for the second test."

3. There is a fairly high incidence of birds testing positive for this disease, and being carriers, but never developing symptoms themselves. It's estimated between 15-31% of the birds randomly tested were positive, but never actually come down with the disease.

Of course, no one knows why...

4. DO NOT KICK YOURSELF... You did nothing wrong. Birds cannot be raised in a bubble, any more than a human can live in a bubble, and have any quality of life.

I am so sorry.

I'm sorry about the diagnoses. I know it's devastating. My partner once had a grey with PBFD. She kept him until his quality of life was just so bad that he couldn't go on. She enjoyed the time she had with him. I think it's great that you're planning on doing the same with Kobus.

Sorry to hear that you and Kobus are going through this! I agree with your girlfriend, treat him normally, give him all the love and attention you can and enjoy the time you have together. Perhaps taking a bunch of pictures of him interacting with you guys, being goofy (as most birds are) will help you remember all the good times you had in the event that he passes away. It's not an easy situation but please stay strong and know that you have the support of this forum. My thoughts and prayers are with you!

Birdman666 said:

1. He should, obviously, be kept away from other birds.

2. He should be retested in two months. This from the vet guide:

"If the bird is not showing any clinical signs of the disease, retest in 2 months to determinewhether this is a transient infection which the bird’s immune system will subsequently clear, in which case the second test will be negative, or whether the bird is a chronic carrier, in which case the second test will be positive. Carriers pose a threat to other birds, and may in time develop clinical signs. There should be no contact with other birds while waiting for the second test."

3. There is a fairly high incidence of birds testing positive for this disease, and being carriers, but never developing symptoms themselves. It's estimated between 15-31% of the birds randomly tested were positive, but never actually come down with the disease.

Of course, no one knows why...

4. DO NOT KICK YOURSELF... You did nothing wrong. Birds cannot be raised in a bubble, any more than a human can live in a bubble, and have any quality of life.

Click to expand...

I will triple definitely steer cleer from any psitticines that any of my friends or anyone I know have. Since I was already paranoid to begin with, I have
ready way too much into it.

I have asked about the false positives too, since I too have heard a lot
about them, but she assured me that the chance with false positives
using blood is very small, and the virus indeed seems to be in her blood.

Ofcourse I respect her professional opinion, but she advised me against
taking the initial test since she thought the bird looked so healthy and
strong, and the chance of her having the disease was so small,
yet I turned out to be right in my paranoia. This could, ofcourse, also
mean that positive blood tests are less than 99.8% accurate...

If it is mandatory to have Kobus tested again in two months, I will
definitely do that, even though I think I might have seen very light
symptoms of the disease already as it is. I have posted my fair share
of "does this feather look weird to you?" pics on this forum, have
recently found some small feathers that seemed "curved" (a slight
sideways bend, not a normal "curve") and a couple of weeks ago
she lost a handful of small feathers within an hour.

This stopped after that day, and since the doctor told me not to worry
too much, I assumed it was just molting. Juuuuust molting...

Since Kobus is, however, still happy, relatively healthy and strong,
the future seems daunting to me, and although time is not the measurement
for love and companionship, my subconscious has been trying to guesstimate
just how much longer Kobus will be with us.

The thing that hurts me the most, however, is realizing how much this
hurts me. I don't want to talk to Kobus and play, laugh and sing with him,
only to burst into tears.
Kobus doesn't seem to understand any of it, and I feel so sickeningly guilty,
for not being able to act normal to him.

I hope that will pass, since I have only gotten to hear this today,
but if I'm going to focus on a good time with Kobus, rather than just
a long one, I'm going to have to be strong for him.

None of us really know how long we have with any pet or loved one. Enjoy the time you have without the cloud of sadness hanging over you. He will feel that. Life needs to be celebrated each day...no matter what! Hugs!

No. There is a low instance of false positives with this one.

BUT there is a 15-31% chance your bird may be IMMUNE to the effects of the disease, even though he carries the virus. Which is actually pretty high. Statistically, almost 1/3 of the birds who test positive, don't actually come down with it...

And some are exposed to it, and two months later, test negative, meaning their bodies successfully fought off the infection and it's gone.

We don't know why. But it is reason to continue to have hope.

So that's the good news.

I recently lost a much-loved Amazon to gout (very rare, indeed), after a long and protracted illness. I know what you are feeling! It's so easy to fall prey to the "what if's" and "if only I had...", but you must realize that, despite our very best efforts (sometimes even the best efforts of the most highly-trained professionals) illnesses will still happen.

Since Kobus is still healthy and strong, proceed from here on the absolute belief that he will beat this. Feed him well, treat him with love & kindness, and enjoy every second with him. Even if the worst happens, you'll know you made his time heaven on earth. Remember - even a sick bird can enjoy life!! Our beloved Pauli, even when the gout had ravaged his legs and he could no longer stand (he had daily pain killers & weekly vitamin injections) still loved his treats, cuddles, and attention. We didn't make the awful decision until his organs shut down and he only had hours left.

At this point, anyone who even thinks euthanasia both angers and outrages me.

Remember, there ARE birds out there that have beat this!! Think positively, keep your chin up, and be determined the Kobus will be one of them.

Birdman666 said:

No. There is a low instance of false positives with this one.

BUT there is a 15-31% chance your bird may be IMMUNE to the effects of the disease, even though he carries the virus. Which is actually pretty high. Statistically, almost 1/3 of the birds who test positive, don't actually come down with it...

And some are exposed to it, and two months later, test negative, meaning their bodies successfully fought off the infection and it's gone.

We don't know why. But it is reason to continue to have hope.

So that's the good news.

Click to expand...

Knowing that there is still hope, but also that there is also still some
*influence* to be had, what can I do to keep Kobus' immune system
as strong as possible? If it's going to be a variable coin flip based on
his immune system, I want to do whatever it takes to keep him as
strong as possible. If there is but only the slightest chance that he
can beat the odds, I want to help him in that fight!

He gets Harrison pallets high potency coarse every day, mixed with
palm nut oil, which is supposed to be a huge source of carrotene, and,
eventually vitamin A. What else can I do, other than "keeping him fed"?

Do I let him sleep more than usual? I will keep him from stress as much
as possible. Are there other kinds of foods, vitamins or minerals that
play a crucial role in fighting off infections and diseases?

I want to be as hopeful and optimistic as I can realisticly be, but I don't
want to get any unrealistic hopes up, and realize later how naïve I was...

Nevertheless, thanks for the optimistic statistics!

Aloe detox?

mh434 said:

I recently lost a much-loved Amazon to gout (very rare, indeed), after a long and protracted illness. I know what you are feeling! It's so easy to fall prey to the "what if's" and "if only I had...", but you must realize that, despite our very best efforts (sometimes even the best efforts of the most highly-trained professionals) illnesses will still happen.

Since Kobus is still healthy and strong, proceed from here on the absolute belief that he will beat this. Feed him well, treat him with love & kindness, and enjoy every second with him. Even if the worst happens, you'll know you made his time heaven on earth. Remember - even a sick bird can enjoy life!! Our beloved Pauli, even when the gout had ravaged his legs and he could no longer stand (he had daily pain killers & weekly vitamin injections) still loved his treats, cuddles, and attention. We didn't make the awful decision until his organs shut down and he only had hours left.

At this point, anyone who even thinks euthanasia both angers and outrages me.

Remember, there ARE birds out there that have beat this!! Think positively, keep your chin up, and be determined the Kobus will be one of them.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for sharing your experience, I am so relieved that you
feel this way about preemptive euthanasia. I will take *every* necessary
precaution to make sure that no one will have to go through this on MY
account.

I grew up with 10 large dogs at all time, since my parents had a lot of
Bouviers. Big dogs. Alas, as such is life, I have lost a lot of them over the
years as well. My parents are both from a long lineage of harsh seapeople
(inland- and sea skippers, fishermen) and we were kind of raised to love,
lose and "go on". Over the years I have also grown used to losing pets,
and, however the sadness of losing is still there, I couldn't really cry over
the loss of one of my dogs anymore. Tonight, while Kobus is still alive,
cheerful and cheeky, is the first time since I can remember that I have
been crying.

Ofcourse, it's probably just the moment. I realise that in fact, nothing
has changed. The virus was traceable in his blood, but the moment that
I heard the results didn't magically change Kobus in a bird clinging to life.

The only factor that has changed is my knowledge of the situation,
and I can only try and use that to my advantage.

Other than that, I have seen friends of me and my family succumb of
dreadful diseases, sometimes only to see healthy friends succumb
before that in a car accident or the like. The only difference is that
they didn't know what was coming.

I think I must try to think that way as well and try to be the owner
that Kobus has come to know me as. I actually found it quite hilarious
that when I was sobbing and crying in my attempt to act cheerful
to Kobus, Kobus tried to (playfully but still ouchy!) snap at my finger
when I tried to touch him, as he likes my girlfriend just a little bit more.

As long as he is cheeky enough to try and bite me like the green little
dragon that all amazon parrots latently secrete, I am happy that he has
the spirit and lifeforce to do so.

The thing that Kobus and I share exclusively among us, however, is
whistling and singing, as I am a very good whistler, and Kobus is *very*
musical. That is to say, she likes to produce sound, especially when I am
also producing sound. When I get out of work tomorrow, I will make sure
to sing with him like he knows we always do.

First, I want to say that my heart really breaks for you. I am so sorry to hear of this devastating news.

THIS.... Is exactly WHY if anyone has ever noticed how viral disease paranoid I am and thought I was overboard. Even then I know that in life there are never any guarantees, and I'm certainly NOT saying it was your fault (I've lost a bird from PDD before). Unfortunately, we DO hear about this highly contagious devastating virus all too often. If anyone thinks this disease is rare, think again. This is the reason for my hyper-awareness of the issue, I've just heard it too often.

As heartbreaking as this is to cope with, I commend you for caring enough to take the necessary precautions not to spread it to others in the community. The way I understand it from my vet, even if a bird tests negative, it can still be a (healthy looking) carrier, and spread it to others.

Again, I am so sorry.

My sincere compassion for your sad news. However, as much as I've read about PBFD, I have actually never read about a case study of an Amazon with the disease. Not saying it doesn't happen but they aren't really known to be super susceptible to it. If that was my bird, I would sure have him retested using a different lab, just to verify the findings. Also, did your vet draw blood from a vein or was it from blood collected from a toenail short-clip? What people sometimes don't realize is that it is easy to cross contaminate a sample from a nail clipper, for example, that wasn't properly sanitized. So few disinfectants are effective against PBFD (bleach is about the only one that's available here in the USA, and it's been recommended to SOAK them for a period of time, not just dunk and rinse). It makes me shudder to think how many "bird groomers" use the same nail clippers on birds without properly sterilizing them between birds (and that could even happen at the vet's office). I'm not in any way suggesting your vet was negligent in the collection method used, only that it might have happened there at the collection site OR even at the lab (cross contamination happens and those tests are SUPER sensitive so it wouldn't take but a tiny bit of virus to cause a positive test). If you were here in the US, I'd suggest you clean off the nail really well, clip with brand new clippers, immediately put in the collection bag, and send to one of the labs that do that test (Avian Biotech or Research Associates Laboratory). Both are so affordable (RAL is $18 and does 24-hour turn around).

I know you're terrified and concerned, but I would sure encourage you to re-do that test to confirm it before spending another day worrying about it. I'll hope and pray it was an incorrect reading.

OOwl said:

I'd suggest you clean off the nail really well, clip with brand new clippers, immediately put in the collection bag, and send to one of the labs that do that test (Avian Biotech or Research Associates Laboratory). Both are so affordable (RAL is $18 and does 24-hour turn around).

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This is very good advice. Thanks for posting that, I was thinking about getting my birds tested before I bring in a new baby. Good advice for anyone.

To the original poster, I'm so sorry for you and your poor baby bird Just love her, spend time with her and give her the best life you can no matter what happens. It's more about quality of life now, and what you do with the rest of it.

I am just so incredibly sorry for such devastating news. Stuff like this truly knocks the wind out of you and leaves us feeling so helpless and hopeless.

However, like Birdman said there is a significant enough chance that Kobus could shake this that you've got to go for it. You're asking the right question as to "how" to boost him up and get him in tiptop virus fighting condition. If it were me, I'd be making sure his diet is top notch, not just high quality pellets, but daily varied fresh produce, healthy nuts, maybe adding some coconut oil, healthy grains legumes and fresh sprouts, maybe periodic probiotics. DMG immune support seems popular in veterinary circles, may be useless according to some, but certainly can't hurt. Milk thistle/dandelion extract is a good liver support, can't hurt to make sure his liver is top notch. Look into the Aloe Detox. Get him daily vigorous exercise, lots and lots of flying (if possible) to make his body strong. Daily exposure to natural full sunlight (not through glass) and fresh, clean air is one of the best "immune boosters" out there.

Even if he can't shake this, the healthier he is the longer he will have a high quality of life!

That Kobus has been exposed to the virus is a fact. Knowing that fact means that you can absolutely prevent him giving it to anyone else. That is a HUGE positive. Despite the upset of knowing that he might fall ill in the future, there is that HUGE positive to having the knowledge. Every single bird, every single owner who doesn't meet Kobus and isn't exposed through him thanks him and thanks you for finding out that he's a potential carrier.

The internet is a good resource for finding out all sorts of things. Unfortunately, it is also a good resource for scaring us silly. The reality is that the course of any disease is not fixed in any individual. Having the virus doesn't mean Kobus will suffer the worst case symptoms of the disease (or that he'll become symptomatic). The photos we see on the internet are the worst case scenarios, not the best case scenarios.

My former cat had feline AIDS. He was adopted from the orphanage and might have caught it when he was "living rough" before they had him for placement. I never thought about how he might have contracted it, what's the point? It can't change the fact of having contracted it, it can't make you feel any better about it and why beat yourself up over the possibility that they got it "on your watch"? Pointless, changes nothing.

Anyway, he lived his life without any apparent disability, until his health waned. Treatment kept him well until it didn't.... He didn't live as long as other cats, but he still had a decent lifespan and I think he had a good life.

Don't waste time on "ifs", just love him and carry on as normal. If he gets sick, deal with that when the time comes. There's really no need to deal with any of the possibilities now, other than to prevent infection. He's still the same lovable bird. Having a few dodgy cells in his blood doesn't change that. Ignore them and don't let them wreck your relationship.

I'm so sorry to hear this diagnosis. I know what you must be going through right now and my heart is breaking for you. Kobus does have a lot in his favor though, by being loved so very much and having you to care for him. I agree with Oowl and Miloslave, I would definitely send a new sample to Avian Biotech or Research Associates Laboratory, it's easy, fast and inexpensive and by taking the sample yourself, you'll know for sure.

It sounds like Kobus has an excellent diet, boosting his immune system could keep him healthy for years to come. We can't know what the future holds, but we can make every minute count. I wish you the very best and I hope your beloved companion is with you for a very long time.

I had PDD in my flock. My Eclectus is the one that had it and shed it in my home. Joaquin only lived to be just shy of 5 years old. BUT I have learned that PDD normally kills Eclectus right away so to have two extra years with him was a blessing.

It was passed to both my mini macaws Diego and Mihijo. However both my boys died from heart disease NOT the PDD. Mihijo lived to be almost 18 years old which is a miracle in itself because his father died young.

It suck of what you had learned but try to be positive. I don't want you to be like me "waiting for the other shoe to drop" knowing that since all three birds shared the same living space Diego and Mihijo were in "danger". I do understand that these viruses can weaken the parrots existing health issues but NOT be the cause of the death. I did learn that even though PDD was present in both my mini macaws it was not the cause of their deaths.

I hope for you that you can find peace with your news and get to the point you can enjoy Kobus again.

I understand what you are going though and my heart goes out to you and your family.