Freddie is Stll Biting

After the wing clip, Fred stopped biting. He's started again, and this AM he broke the skin on Hubby's hand. We use a stick perch. He seems angry, and goes after the hand three or four times. He's not responding to NO. Freddie is only stepped up to move him from sleep cage to day cage, or vice versa. This AM he was on his way to his day cage, and is eager to go and have breakfast...so I'm not understanding why he bites. It's not person related, as he did the same to me yesterday, although not as hard. I plan on putting him immediately on the floor, when he tries this again but I'm confused as to why he's biting. Any suggestions?

I wish I had an answer for you. There are so many reasons that could be causing this. Has anything in your schedule changed? Any enviroment changes? Is he maybe a little hormonal? Is he being protective of you?

No changes...I can't see that he's protecting me. He bites me too. Hubby went into the sleep room alone, as I was getting breakfast for the birds. It's all very frustrating...I hope it's not hormones, as I'm not ready for that yet! I think he's molting though...We've had some terribly hot weather, and he's losing lots of floofies.

That's probably it. He is molting. It's a stressful time. Only lasts about.... one month. LOL, long time there. But still he might interact with you on some days.

SharonC said:

floofies.

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you said "floofies"

we call it "love in the form of fluff".

It doesn't feel like love, everytime I grab the vac....

I'm so sorry you are experiencing this Sharon and I can sympathise as Argyle is also pretty unpredictable. Molting does seem to make them ittitable especially when they get their pins in. Hot dry weather doesn't help as high humidity is preferable especially during a molt. I hope things improve for you and soon but please know you aren't alone.

I've been doing some research and thinking...When Fred first arrived, he bit for no apparent reason when stepping up. This continued, and got harder until I clipped his wings. All biting stopped for about two to three weeks. He's now started again, and bites are again getting harder. Again, there is no apparent reason.

My thoughts....Fred is determined to be "the boss" as Amazons are inclined to do. I know some don't think that birds want to be boss, but I actually think there's something to this. Toweling and clipping the wings meant that I asserted myself as the "flock leader". After two weeks, he's now trying it again...I think maybe it's time to assert myself again, by restraining him when he bites....

Well, I can see several reasons:

1. You haven't had him long enough and he doesn't trust you yet. Male zons are independent, powerful animals and they know it so they don't give their trust immediately. They don't have to. That's for ninnies not for strong macho birds.

2. He is a male and it is the end of the breeding season so he still has quite a lot of sexual hormones in his bloodstream. Also, if he was not kept to a solar schedule, he could be sexually frustrated which makes it much worse.

3. He is beginning to molt and that makes him irritable.

4. The insecurity period they go through after clipping is over and he is now pretty po'd that his mobility has been impaired. I've never known clipping to work with naturally aggressive species or individuals and, sometimes, there are situations when time would have taken care of the problem and clipping makes it permanent (my only mean tiel is one that was pinionned).

Male zons are not usually cuddly, submissive, dependent or particularly forgiving birds. They are large, powerful, smart, independent, self-assured birds and the only way you can have a good long term relationship is to respect their boundaries and idiosyncracies. They don't like to be told what to do and/or when to do it and the only way you get them to do things is to outsmart them. And that's not that easy, either, because they are not only very intelligent, they are masters at reading body language and tone of voice.

Now, a bird only bites a hand that is near so, personally, I would just keep my hands to myself for a while and let him be until I can see that he trusts and likes me. He will let you know when and if he is ready for a closer relationship. In the meantime, talk and sing (they LOVE songs!) to him, give him treats (they are great eaters of veggies, fruits and greens) and give him a bath every morning (they ADORE baths!). He will learn to anticipate the bath right after he eats his breakfast and this will put him in a good mood. The bath and the following preening session will keep him occupied for a while and the extra activity will help dissipate sexual hormones from his bloodstream. And, most important of all, keep him to a strict solar schedule so he is not hormonal all year round. But, I have to warn you, if you are not ready to deal with hormones, a male zon is not the bird for you because they all get hormonal during breeding season and even more so as they get older.

Actually, Fred has been kept on a strict solar schedule. I don't particularly want or need him to be cuddly, and I'm only asking him to step up twice daily... that's when I move him to his day and night cages. He sleeps in a sleep room, in a smaller cage, and I bring him out in the morning. I talk, and sing to him daily, and he thoroughly enjoys that. He gets showers....
He allows me to give him head scratches...in fact he asks for them. He allows me to touch his beak and toes...so I'm not certain trust is the issue here. As far as I know, Fred is not yet sexually mature. The previous owners did not see any behavioral changes in the time that they had him. I assume that is a time that is yet to come. I don't mind dealing with hormones, and I thoroughly researched hormonal Amazon behavior, before I got Freddie, because of their reputation.

I also know that Amazons are strong-willed, macho birds, as you say. This is the reason that I think asserting myself a little more, for the two step ups a day, may be necessary. Although, I don't plan on having him on me, I do need to be able to move him at bedtime, and in the morning.

SharonC said:

I've been doing some research and thinking...When Fred first arrived, he bit for no apparent reason when stepping up. This continued, and got harder until I clipped his wings. All biting stopped for about two to three weeks. He's now started again, and bites are again getting harder. Again, there is no apparent reason.

My thoughts....Fred is determined to be "the boss" as Amazons are inclined to do. I know some don't think that birds want to be boss, but I actually think there's something to this. Toweling and clipping the wings meant that I asserted myself as the "flock leader". After two weeks, he's now trying it again...I think maybe it's time to assert myself again, by restraining him when he bites....

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I VERY strongly urge you to reconsider. I am afraid that you are going at this the wrong way because male zons don't take it kindly to people trying to subdue them by force or punishment. No parrot does but male zons are not as forgiving as other birds. It's not that they want to be 'the boss' is that they don't accept anybody as their boss. It's not in their genetic makeup. They will accept you as their equal but not as their superior. But their acceptance is not acquired in a matter of the couple of months you've had him. It usually takes longer and, besides, it takes what it takes. I feel you are trying to rush something that cannot be rushed. With birds, you need to deal in their timetables and not ours.

I have personally dealt with eight amazons, four males and four females and out of the males, there were two that were VERY aggressive (there was also an incredibly aggressive female) and, IMPE, what you are thinking of doing is not only not going to help, it might end up making things worse. Furthermore, the consequences of this action could be very far-reaching - you could very well end up with a large, strong bird who hates you and all humanity, too!

I beg you to reconsider. He just needs more time, patience, gentleness and respect for his own feelings.

OK...You make some valid points...Thanks.

I'm just afraid I'm going to end up with a bird who is not accepting me as an equal, because I'll be letting him "get away" with behavior that is not acceptable...I do accept that an occassional bite is expected, but not every time he's handled. I'm rethinking....
I hate the idea of subdueing him, actually, because it will make me as uncomfortable as it will him.

SharonC said:

I'm just afraid I'm going to end up with a bird who is not accepting me as an equal, because I'll be letting him "get away" with behavior that is not acceptable...

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You're almost there, but not quite. No matter how smart he is, no matter how funny he is, he is not a person. He doesn't think in terms of getting away with anything, he's just being a bird, the best way he knows how.

If he learned to bite, he can unlearn it, but first he has to trust you, and bond to you, and give a flying fart in a windstorm whether you like being bitten or not. It's only after he's accepted you as his flock that he'll want to learn how his "new" flock runs things. Right now he's been kidnapped and taken somewhere against his will. He probably doesn't much care how you're feeling, or how much you bleed. Give him time, and be patient. A dog can come around in a few days, but dogs don't have the smarts or the memory that parrots do. Freddie wants a flock - his instincts are telling him he has to have a flock - but you have to show him that you're a flock he can trust.

That, too, makes sense. Right now, the slight "wobbling" of the stick perch works well, when I have to step him up to move him. However, I suppose that may damage trust as well.?? He really does seem to trust me...he will completely relax, and even nap with his back turned to me, sometimes. Wouldn't that imply trust of some sort....

SharonC said:

That, too, makes sense. Right now, the slight "wobbling" of the stick perch works well, when I have to step him up to move him. However, I suppose that may damage trust as well.??

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If you're deliberately shaking his perch stick while he's on it (I don't remember reading anything like that, so maybe I've misunderstood what you're asking?) then yes, that would damage his trust.

I've got a similar setup to what you have - Boo sleeps upstairs in my office at night, but his main cage is downstairs. The first few weeks of taking him upstairs at night and down in the morning were erratic. Just before I got him, he was at a rescue, and he was used to being put into a small cage in a shed at night, then taken out during the day. In spite of that being part of his routine, he still got confused by the stairs, he didn't like the windows I passed on the way up. In the morning when I came in and turned on the lights to take him downstairs, he was startled and crabby. I started easing the door open in the morning and speaking gently to him - before I turned on the lights - so he knew I was there and he expected it. That made the mornings easier. Nights were just tricky, until he finally got used to the new routine. Now he gets crabby if I don't take him upstairs at his usual time, around 8PM, but it's been almost six years now.

Wow. I didn't realize it had been that long.

He really does seem to trust me...he will completely relax, and even nap with his back turned to me, sometimes. Wouldn't that imply trust of some sort....

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That's his instinct to bond and be part of the flock. Let it work in your favor, but that means you have to be absolutely reliable and understandable from a bird's point of view. Spend the first little while adapting to him and understanding the way he sees things. Later you can work on retraining him to adapt to you and your household.

Oh, and there are still some morning when he's not ready to get up immediately. If I put my hand down and he doesn't lift a leg up, or he moves away from me, I just sit myself down by his perch and talk to him for a few minutes, asking him if he wants to go downstairs and get some good food. He knows what food is, and he knows what good stuff is - he knew that before he came here. By cuing him in that we're going downstairs to eat, he's more willing. But I never force him to come onto my hand before he's ready, even if it means I'm going to be late for work.

Sorry....yes. I've been stepping him up on a "stick perch". He steps up almost immediately, and then usually bites. I've been giving the stick a slight wobble when he moves to bite, and it's been working. Again, I only step him up twice daily to move him from the smaller cage to the day cage, and vice versa. In the morning, he's quite eager to go to his day cage and have breakfast....I think the biting is a habit for him....

We're going away for a few days on Thursday, and I'm taking all my birds. Freddie will have to use his carrier. (it's actually a dog kennel, that I used to bring him home)...I expect I will have to towel him. I know this is not a good idea, right now.

SharonC said:

I've been giving the stick a slight wobble when he moves to bite, and it's been working.

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Boo has something I call his "alarm" noise. It's kind of an urgent growl. He makes it when he sees a crow (he hates crows), or if something startles him. He also makes it if he's stepped onto my hand and my hand wiggles for any reason, making him feel unsure of his perch. I try to keep my hand as steady as I possibly can between his cage and my shoulder.

The perch shake would definitely distract him from biting - and I understand not wanting to get bitten. The one time Boo bit me wasn't one of my best memories of our time together. I'm just wondering if there might be something else that could work. The volunteer at the rescue where I got Boo had to bring him out of his cage on a perch stick, and as soon as he was on it, he went for her hand to bite her. She just waited until he was almost there - the perch stick was about 3 feet long - grabbed the other end of the stick and rotated it around, so she was on the opposite end of the stick from him. He went back for her hand, and she rotated it again. She did this as she got him moved to a perch stand, where she could put him down. It worked for her, and she didn't get bitten.

He liked men better than women, so it was easier for me. I just talked to him until his eyes stopped pinning, and he wasn't flaring his tail. Then I rested my fingers on his perch stand, but as far away from him as I could get, and I kept talking to him. He glared at my fingers, and lunged at them, but he didn't move to bite me. When he settled down and stopped glaring at my fingers, I moved them a little closer. We kept this up for almost an hour, until my fingers were right next to his feet. He lunged at me again, but I didn't jerk my hand back or do anything else to startle him. When he let me touch his toes, that's when he lifted a leg up to be picked up. He was happy and comfortable on my shoulder, and he didn't bite me until I was trying to get him off and put him back down on the perch stand. I got too aggressive and was chasing him around my shoulders with my hand. He just tried to avoid me until i pushed him too far, and he bit me good. I bled for a while.

I've since read that I also should have approached him with my head turned, and looking at him out of the corners of my eyes. In the wild, the only thing that looks head-on at a parrot and stares is a predator. Their instinct is to flight or flee when something does that. I've tried that on parrots in other places, and they seem more relaxed around me. Maybe it wouldn't have taken an hour for him to adjust to me if I'd done that.

Edited to add: I still can't put my hand up to my shoulder to get him down - he won't tolerate it. Instead I just move close to his perch, so he can step over himself. He knows when I'm leaning in next to his perch, that's his cue to climb off.

I used my hand for the first three weeks. He usually bit, so I thought maybe my arm wasn't what he wanted....I then changed to the stick perch. I have no clue why he bites in this situation....

I agree with Scott 100%. As to his bites, I think he might do it as a warning to you. I also think that maybe your moving his stick when he looks as if he is going to bite you might not be making things better (it's kind of like fulfilling his prophecy and justifying his continuing with the bites). Why don't you try putting on a very thick (or two, one on top of another) oven mitt? It would prevent his bite from hurting you and would eliminate the 'wobbly' stick.