I've Been Thinking...

...and for me that might be dangerous!!! LOL!

Fred has been in a bad mood for a couple of days.

Yesterday, he bit me hard, between the fingers, when I placed my hand in front of him to step him up. I was asking him if he wanted to come. There was room for him to say NO. He lunged and bit. I yelled at him, stepped him up on to the stick, and put him in the cage. I gave him a really dirty look, and ignored him for about an hour. I think I reacted badly, according to what I read...BUT....Fred actually looked ashamed of himself. He said softly...Freddie's a good bird?, to which I replied No, Freddie's not a good bird. I'm very angry with you! He continued to look ashamed.

This morning, all was well. Step ups were not a problem. Later today, he left the top of his cage and jumped on a leather sofa...where I don't allow him to be. I attempted to step him up. He refused, so I got the stick perch. He stepped up...I thought it would be a good time for him to have a little physical contact. He walked up my arm, attempted to get on the shoulder. I do not allow him on my shoulder. He chomped my upper arm, and removed skin. It was a bite...not an attempt to climb. I again let him know that I was angry, and he got placed in his cage. About an hour later, I offered him my hand. He took my finger gently in his beak. Again, it was quite obvious, that he KNEW that I was displeased with him, and why, and he altered the behavior.

My thinking may be flawed but I'm questioning whether I'm being firm enough with him. I know that I can't destroy his trust, and I should just ignore bad behavior. But Fred seems like a very smart bird who is quite capable of knowing what is acceptable and what is not. He also is a very stubborn bird who is capable of trying to get his way, and trying to discipline me. I think the time has come to get a little more "aggressive" with some of his antics.

Opinions welcome....

I always have, and always will say that amazons are one of the most complex and sensitive species of all the parrots for just these types of examples, little Jekyll and Hydes, to this day I still don't know anyone that truely knows what makes them tick, since you seem to have better results in getting a reaction out of Freddie by being disappointed in him than by just simply ignoring his bad behavior, I'd keep trying that and see what results you get for a period of time, it may make a difference, and I know you always praise him when he's a good boy, so I wouldn't change that, you might try being a little more stern with him when he misbehaves(I know thats hard for you Sharon) so he doesn't think your more of a pushover than he already does :09:...........good luck with the grumpy little bugger....lol

I think I am going to try a more stern approach. He does seem to be a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde. It makes sense to me, to let him see that there are consequences for nasty behavior...and he does seem to be "ashamed" when he knows he's done something wrong. I'm going to work on that, and see how it goes.

When you think about it, we all have "rules". Children and other pets are educated in how to be social in a family...I'm really good with kids and dogs, and I've always had "rules" for both. I read many times that birds aren't dogs and should not be trained as such, but from what I've seen Fred is very smart. I think he's very capable of learning rules and respecting those rules and his people.

Is there anyway you can expand your Fred's world? What I mean is to take him places with you in a travel cage like a school or just sitting outside on a park bench? When Rosie gets nippy I do put her back in the cage for a while but later that day try to give her a change in scenery. Just a thought. Another thought is often times territoriality is a big issue and problem in biting. If you let Fred on the cage door or playtop he will feel more agressive to anyone approaching him. "This is my home and stay away". I know it is a problem for Rosie.

Good avvice, SB. We are thinking alike as he's currently in the sun on the patio. I too, think a change of scenery does him good. I also just finished rearranging his cage, and rotating toys. I expect I'm going to take a road trip soon, to just get away for a day. I guess Fred will be going with me!

I scold Boo occasionally, and I don't see a problem with letting him know that he's done something I don't like. I'm a little more mixed on locking him in his cage as punishment, just because I'm nervous about Boo ever thinking that being in his cage is the same as being punished. Possibly not an issue with the way Boo's cage is, but I still avoid it. I put him *on* his cage - away from me - if he's done something to deserve a time out.

Just keep in mind that there's a fine line sometimes between discouraging a behavior by separating him from you and encouraging a behavior because it gets him attention and excitement. When Boo first came to us, I sometimes spent as much as an hour camped out in my dining room because I wasn't going to encourage him screaming by going into the room where he could see me while he was doing it. I'd wait until he was quiet, and then walk in. Now when he wants to know where I am, he whistles. I whistle back, and we're good. If he screams (he still does, sometimes) I don't respond at all.

Fred's favourite place to be is on his cage, so that won't work for me. I put him back in the cage, more to deprive him of his "freedom with people" time. I then completely ignored him...not even eye contact. Fred is used to being talked to a lot, so the silence seemed to bother him. I think that was the reason for his saying "Freddie's a good bird," spoken very quietly, almost as if he were trying to get me to speak to him. When I replied "No. Freddie's NOT a good bird" I spoke with irritation in my voice....followed by my silence. He did seem to understand...I think the punishment for Fred here, is the ignoring. He truly loves his cage, and will often choose to be in it, even though the door is open.

In my experience with Earlyn (my disaster BFA turned loving companion), the more firm I was, the more stubborn she became. It was a battle of wills, and she was the one with the can-opener-face defense mechanism (i.e. bites), so I was the one with the battle scars. I am her third owner, and she came to me with a boatload of behavior problems.

The most significant change I have seen happened after (ok, this might sound crazy) I stopped treating her like a "pet" and started treating her like another individual. In this sense, dogs are more like "pets". You can train them to follow your will. Parrots are trainable too... but I don't think you can ever overcome their will. Treating her like an individual meant accepting that there were some days she didn't want to play or come out of her cage. Consistency became important than stern treatment (i.e. I had to be consistent with my behavior): I would offer my hand for her to step up (without shoving it into her) while speaking kindly and invitingly to her (with the requisite "step up!"), and if she wanted to interact, she would. If she doesn't, it is either because she doesn't trust me to hold her without dropping her, she's afraid I might pull my hand away (early problem, when I was worried about being bitten), or she just doesn't want to come out. I usually make the offer a few times before rescinding it, talking the whole time ("Step up. Step up. No? You don't want to come out? Ok... I won't make you, but I'm sad that you don't want to spend time with me").

Now, in the situation you describe where Fred was in a place you didn't want... and riled up to boot... I would have grabbed the towel. I think we all know "overloaded parrot" mode, and at that point I find it safest (for our relationship) just to towel her quickly and place her back in the cage to cool down. Especially during hormone season. Otherwise, I might get bitten and feel angry, which won't help.

For punishment, I am very careful not to yell or get emotional. I agree that Amazons are extremely sensitive... I can remember being very upset about a breakup a few years ago, sobbing on my couch, and then looking over to see poor Earlyn pulling her feathers out. She had been making little noises at me while I was sitting there, and I'm assuming that the feather-pulling resulted from the frustration of seeing her flockmate and friend upset while she was confined to her cage and unable to understand why I was upset or approach me. I'll never forget that. Similarly, if I scream or get angry, I can see changes in her mood.

The most effective punishment is isolation. Bad bird = alone time in cage. Bad NOISY bird = alone time in cage w/cover for 10 minutes. During that time, no one is allowed to respond to the bird or make any reference to her that she might understand or touch the cage. Continued bad behavior? Continued cover... until I get 10 minutes of quiet (or soft, regretful noises). Sometimes it's a long time. Sometimes you take the cover off only to have to re-cover right away, or 5 minutes later. It can take MONTHS for the bird to understand what is happening, but the end results are completely worth it (versus battle of the wills). Good behavior reinforces good behavior... and in time, the bird will more or less forget the naughty things that he/she could do to rile you up. Patience is essential, although it's insanely frustrating. Sometimes the behavior regresses and you have to start over again.

Sorry that a lot of this is just me rambling... hopefully part of it is relevant and/or helpful.

P.S. I do not allow Earlyn to lounge about on top of her cage anymore because I read somewhere that it encourages territorial behavior. She has a play stand that she hangs out on outside of the cage instead. I swear this makes a huge difference, because even though she'll let me pick her up anywhere, the top of the cage is still the hardest place to get her to step up.

SharonC said:

He truly loves his cage, and will often choose to be in it, even though the door is open.

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Boo's cage is open most of the time, too. We just got him (well, a few months ago) a new, much larger cage. The old one was about 40" high by 30" wide and 24" deep. The new one is much wider, much taller, and has a split playtop/open top. I'll see if I can find a picture.

OK, I found one:


If you click on it, it gets bigger. I was worried he'd be freaked out by a new cage, but he loves it. Climbs all over it. I have the top permanently open for him, and the side door onto his playtop also locked open. The only door he can't go in and out is the front cage door (but that bothers him, so he crawls down the front of the cage and is trying to figure out how to work the lock). He doesn't fly, because of his stiff wing, and he loves being able to be outside the cage whenever he wants. And when he sits up on top of the highest point, he's probably 7' up in the air (good thing we have tall ceilings). He's now king of his domain and he knows he can always get away from whatever is bothering him - he's a happy Boo. But he still likes being with me, so me putting him back on his cage is all I need to do.

thegreatkatsby said:

I do not allow Earlyn to lounge about on top of her cage anymore because I read somewhere that it encourages territorial behavior.

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The height dominance thing is a myth. A bird's instinct is to get to high ground when they feel threatened. If you reach for your bird when it's feeling threatened, you'll get bitten - no matter how high or low she is. Boo spends most of his time way up above my head (his cage is 7' tall, and I'm only 5'9") but I don't worry about him ever feeling "superior" to me just because he's taller.

ScottinVentura said:

The height dominance thing is a myth. A bird's instinct is to get to high ground when they feel threatened. If you reach for your bird when it's feeling threatened, you'll get bitten - no matter how high or low she is. Boo spends most of his time way up above my head (his cage is 7' tall, and I'm only 5'9") but I don't worry about him ever feeling "superior" to me just because he's taller.

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I suppose then it might just be a learned behavior from when we were still getting to know each other. She knew she was harder to catch on top of the cage, and she also realized it was easier to bite me when she was on top of the cage (i.e. I couldn't drop her).

Maybe, but you could still let her unlearn it, if you decided it was important.

The biggest thing with Boo is he knows he always has the choice whether to come up or not. He's smart enough, and independent enough, that I don't expect the kind of obedience my dogs give me. If I offer my hand to Boo, all he has to do is move a couple of steps away from me, and I leave him alone. He doesn't want to come up right now, and that's fine. Because he knows he's got a choice, he doesn't feel like he has to defend himself. Even when it's time for bed, if he moves away from my hand, I just take my hand away and talk to him, telling him it's very late and time for Boo to go upstairs and get some sleep. Eventually he moves down the cage toward me and then comes to my hand willingly.

Bedtime is easier since I started giving him cues that it's time to go upstairs. I turn off the television, then turn off all but one of the lights in the room, so it's fairly dim, and while I do it I talk to him and tell him it's late and time for sleep. 90% of the time, when I put my hand out to him, he climbs right on.

I think when it comes to discipline, like children each bird is different to what they respond to. Although there are general "rules" they need to be adjusted to suit your bird. I think consistency is a must, without it your fid will become frustrated and confused and wont know what behaviour is OK and what isn't

"Punishing" is not something that works for birds. I think something like "nurturing dominance" might be better. I have found that more often than not, if I am the one who takes the "time out" if I get upset with something my bird does, the situation gets better faster. If I ever needed to resort to using a stick to pick her up, she gets more pissed off so I would never try to handle her right after that. Birds really feed off your energy so if you are angry, they will get defensive and the "bite" is how they defend themselves. I don't think it is productive to "ignore" a bird either...it is better to take a deep breath, try not to take a bite personally and approach your bird when you are feeling more relaxed. If the bird goes onto some furniture that he is not allowed on, pick him up with NO drama and limit his access in the future. I think Amazons get more territorial when they have raging hormones, so be aware of seasonal changes and also what you might be doing to add to the problem (without knowing it). Overfeeding and petting the "wrong" way can set off hormonal changes that are not terribly healthy. Some birds also get moody when they are molting. Foraging activity should be encouraged so the bird is not bored. Go to the Medical Center for Birds website and download some of the patient handouts they have available. I hate to keep bragging about my vet, but he is fantastic:

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