Why does Emil bite me?

Hi, I'm trying all I can to socialize this 11 year old male red lored amazon that I got 4 months ago. He is perfectly fine with me, in fact he is really bonded to me and is the most amazing, cuddly and affectionate companion parrot i've ever had. But I have one very BIG issue with him. And it seems like previously mentioned in another thread that he has never, ever been socialized. (damn that previous owner to hell). He will litteraly attack ME, with no warning signs what so ever. Just a sudden lunge. And bite a hole in my arm/hand every single time another man comes around, whether inside or outside in his harness because of his hot three temperament x2. He is not acceptable to be socialized right now. He will attack either me, or dive into the other person (man). Not women though. The problem is I have to get two stitches almost every time.. That's how friggin hard and deep he bites. His biting power is crazy compared to all other amazons i've been bitten by including blue fronts and DYH's. And it's REALLY getting on my nerves. I'm almost starting to doubt amazon males should even be considered pets. But then I remember that they are all still wild ceatures. And really stupid, yet they're intelligent, and can/will always learn. But I wont and I cant give up. I really need help. So what the hell do I do, Do you think mating season has anything to do with this behaviour?

You said he bites you so hard you need 2 stitches every time he does it? So...how many hospital visits have you had? How many stitches in total? :54:

Yes, it IS Amazon breeding season right now. Yes, males CAN and often ARE a handful during this time. How about keep handling to a minimum until he appears 'nicer'?

Another thing our henpecked has taught me is this: If he allows you to pet him, only do so very briefly, then stop. He will want more, so you are stopping on good terms.

Socialization doesn't happen over night. Wait til his hormones subside (IF it's indeed hormonally related), then try again.

First, red loreds are NOT hot 3's.

Second, this sounds like displacement biting. With strangers being the trigger. So, either overbonding/mate aggression issue or displacement biting... fear of strangers. Sounds like fear of strangers to me. And red loreds can be on the shy side for zons.

Third, I have had a red lored that was so far gone when I got her she was going to be put to sleep. (She's been a shoulder bird for fifteen years or so now.) So, no, that's not their base nature. It takes time to properly socialize a zon, and for now you have to realize that strangers walking up to you are likely to trigger a bite reaction. Anticipate it and control the bird BEFORE it happens...

THIS BIRD NEEDS TO BE BITE PRESSURE TRAINED!!! Train this bird to pinch, instead of latch on...

I beak wrestle with mine nose to beak, so NO, IT'S NOT A UNIVERSAL AMAZON TRAIT.

JerseyWendy said:

You said he bites you so hard you need 2 stitches every time he does it? So...how many hospital visits have you had? How many stitches in total? :54:

Yes, it IS Amazon breeding season right now. Yes, males CAN and often ARE a handful during this time. How about keep handling to a minimum until he appears 'nicer'?

Another thing our henpecked has taught me is this: If he allows you to pet him, only do so very briefly, then stop. He will want more, so you are stopping on good terms.

Socialization doesn't happen over night. Wait til his hormones subside (IF it's indeed hormonally related), then try again.

Click to expand...

Thank you, I will keep that in mind about the petting. He wants me to pet him for hours, but I do it in my terms though.. Which is often less than 25 minutes/day. He has been alot worse though since I got him, and he seems to get better with time. I have been seriously bitten about 3 times so far 2 times on my hand and one on my arm. And all of those times blood was oozing out, so I had to get 2 stiches each time. But most of the times he just nips me so it's nothing too serious.

Birdman666 said:

First, red loreds are NOT hot 3's.

Second, this sounds like displacement biting. With strangers being the trigger. So, either overbonding/mate aggression issue or displacement biting... fear of strangers. Sounds like fear of strangers to me. And red loreds can be on the shy side for zons.

Third, I have had a red lored that was so far gone when I got her she was going to be put to sleep. (She's been a shoulder bird for fifteen years or so now.) So, no, that's not their base nature. It takes time to properly socialize a zon, and for now you have to realize that strangers walking up to you are likely to trigger a bite reaction. Anticipate it and control the bird BEFORE it happens...

THIS BIRD NEEDS TO BE BITE PRESSURE TRAINED!!! Train this bird to pinch, instead of latch on...

I beak wrestle with mine nose to beak, so NO, IT'S NOT A UNIVERSAL AMAZON TRAIT.

Click to expand...

Yeah I guess they can be hard during the spring. This is the first time i'm experiencing/handling a hormonal amazon as my own companion. First. My red lore is like no other Red lored. Trust me in that. You may think that the hot 3 are actually hot 3 until you've experienced Emils hormones. He is an Exception to all the other ones. And I have met ALOT of different adult amazons in their spring hormones on our monthly meetings here in Sweden. Examples: Double yellow heads, Blue fronts, Yellow napes, Yellow crowns, and even their owners say that none of them come close to Emils aggression and hormonal levels. I think Science is wrong in this one. And he is also 40 cm in lenght from tail to head weighing 553 Grams now. Contrary to every site suggesting they range from 32-35 cm and a weight from 300-480 grams. He almost dwarfs other red lores that he stood by in size and mass. Even my local avian vet was amazed and said he was still in a very healthy weight/shape considering his abnormal size. That was a little soothing since I was worried he was overweight. I think with that comes raw beak power and aggression. Second. I do wrestle with his beak as well. I found that this makes him nip me more than bite me hard. Which is good. I think i'll just have to keep on going, and handle him away from other men. He doesn't care much about women though. Third. He is not shy at all! He is the opposit. He litteraly flies to anyones shoulder and stays there without doubt, and then he bites. So I have to stop this behaviour some how. Very seldom is he showing fear. Not even when there are predators in his field of view. He is unlike any amazon I have ever seen and is very VERY de-sensitized to almost everything except.. bubbles. Bubbles make him freak out.. HAHAH. I remember at our local meeting once when all our amazons were in a huge aviary and a predator came lurking above them, all amazons started freaking out flying everywhere.. But Emil, and a panama amazon. They were just standing there like what the hell are they freaking out about? And that was several tame blue fronts, yna's, dyh's a.s.o. Strange. :S

But thanks for your help and I will continue and come back when breeding season ends. Hopefully he will be calmer then. But so far, on the bright side.. He has been great at trick training, in 4 months he has already mastered how to turn around, wink, spread his wings on command, and to accept putting on a harness. Now all we need to train is to fly to me on command.

Those are big numbers for a RLA. He is bigger then my mid-range DYHA.

Pictures please!

He should be displacing enough for you to catch his change in behavior prior to being bitten. More comments once some pictures are included (Bribery).

Snabb, am I understanding you correctly in that you take your RL to monthly meetings with many other Amazon owners, all of which bring their birds along?

If that's the case, please be careful. It's quite easy to spread disease! Also, when 'socialization' is mentioned, we don't mean with other parrots, but with other people, taking him for walks, out and about in public (safely, of course)

And I agree, I MUST see pictures of your giant terror.

SailBoat said:

Those are big numbers for a RLA. He is bigger then my mid-range DYHA.

Pictures please!

He should be displacing enough for you to catch his change in behavior prior to being bitten. More comments once some pictures are included (Bribery).

Click to expand...

JerseyWendy said:

Snabb, am I understanding you correctly in that you take your RL to monthly meetings with many other Amazon owners, all of which bring their birds along?

If that's the case, please be careful. It's quite easy to spread disease! Also, when 'socialization' is mentioned, we don't mean with other parrots, but with other people, taking him for walks, out and about in public (safely, of course)

And I agree, I MUST see pictures of your giant terror.

Click to expand...

Sure, I'll get you some pictures in a minute. Though pictures doesn't show you exactly how big he is.. I think I had a picture of him next to another Red lored female and he made her look tiny. But I have wayy to many pictures of emil to even bother looking for it haha. But If I find it. I will post it here. And yes i'm aware of diseases, but our company called SPF only allows healthy birds with a vets permit. So no need to worry about that. And of course i'm socializing him with people, and not parrots. Problem is those people are afraid of him for an understandable reason.

Here are some pictures of him.

I don't know amazons, but your bird is lovely <3 Such healthy looking feathers! (don't know why that's the first thing I notice)

Just a thought here. It may simply be that your bird is not as bonded to you yet as you think. I have a CAG that I got due to a feather plucking/new puppies situation. It was almost 14 months before I could pet her without her attempting to nip/bite. Also she would chase my family members and bite them for a long time. These bites always resulted in broken skin and severe bruising. It is just in the last two months that her behavior is settling down.

I just wonder if you are still seeing reactions that are the result of previous experiences. It might take a long time for these behaviors to be unlearned and for trust to develop between you. I would encourage patience and consistency in your dealing with the biting.

female red lored amazon

My female red lored amazon (miss-named Pacho) use to be like this with me.
Not the displacement biting but the sudden biting with no warning.
I would be giving her a neck scratch and she would turn her head and bite real hard.
Eventually I was able to read very subtle hints in body tension rather than body language per say. One I could do that and pull away to avoid the bite she stopped trying to bite me.
Pacho is the only amazon I have that can now be handled by someone other than me.

If I could just get her to stop picking her feathers.:22:
texsize

SailBoat said:

Those are big numbers for a RLA. He is bigger then my mid-range DYHA.

Pictures please!

He should be displacing enough for you to catch his change in behavior prior to being bitten. More comments once some pictures are included (Bribery).

Click to expand...

That is a VERY LARGE red lored. Mine is about 450 grams. He's big, but he looks healthy. He's not a round perch potato bird.

My red lored is a very jealous bird. She'll pinch me if I am holding her and paying attention to other amazons at the same time.

Good Lord, that's one big Red Lored Amazon!

The serve arm bits that you are receiving has much to do with the length of his beak. Shaping the upper and/or lower structure should be left to an Avian Vet. Over-growth of that structure can be the result of a lack of use, all the way too, an underlying health problem. In combination with his longer claws (nails), they combine to support a visit to the Vet's office for trimming and testing.

Please take the time to read or re-read the first Thread in the Amazon Forum regarding reading Amazon body language.

Your goal should be learning from your Amazon. Biting and other behaviors are a reaction to what we and those around your parrot are doing. It is not the fault of your Amazon! If, you always start from this position, you will quickly become aware of what your Amazon is trying to tell you, i.e. you need to learn Amazon.

ZephyrFly said:

I don't know amazons, but your bird is lovely <3 Such healthy looking feathers! (don't know why that's the first thing I notice)

Click to expand...

Thank you! I appreciate that. That makes me so proud of him and me.

jdlehman76 said:

Just a thought here. It may simply be that your bird is not as bonded to you yet as you think. I have a CAG that I got due to a feather plucking/new puppies situation. It was almost 14 months before I could pet her without her attempting to nip/bite. Also she would chase my family members and bite them for a long time. These bites always resulted in broken skin and severe bruising. It is just in the last two months that her behavior is settling down.

I just wonder if you are still seeing reactions that are the result of previous experiences. It might take a long time for these behaviors to be unlearned and for trust to develop between you. I would encourage patience and consistency in your dealing with the biting.

Click to expand...

It may be. I have alot to learn about his behaviours still. But thanks for the comment and I will keep that in mind!

texsize said:

My female red lored amazon (miss-named Pacho) use to be like this with me.
Not the displacement biting but the sudden biting with no warning.
I would be giving her a neck scratch and she would turn her head and bite real hard.
Eventually I was able to read very subtle hints in body tension rather than body language per say. One I could do that and pull away to avoid the bite she stopped trying to bite me.
Pacho is the only amazon I have that can now be handled by someone other than me.

If I could just get her to stop picking her feathers.:22:
texsize

Click to expand...

Hmm sounds almost exactly like Emil. Except he would bite me if someone else comes close. I read this is like a partner behaviour? That when an amazon chooses it's mate for spring mating, it attacks all other ''intruders'' to keep away from his mate and after spring they get together with the flock as usual with no problems? So it might just be spring behaviours. I hope your wonderful little cutie starts getting better soon!

Birdman666 said:

SailBoat said:

Those are big numbers for a RLA. He is bigger then my mid-range DYHA.

Pictures please!

He should be displacing enough for you to catch his change in behavior prior to being bitten. More comments once some pictures are included (Bribery).

Click to expand...

That is a VERY LARGE red lored. Mine is about 450 grams. He's big, but he looks healthy. He's not a round perch potato bird.

My red lored is a very jealous bird. She'll pinch me if I am holding her and paying attention to other amazons at the same time.

Click to expand...

I told you he's big! And thank you. I think Emil is jealous too.. That's probably why he bites me when someone else ''intruder'' comes close to his mate ''me''.

SailBoat said:

Good Lord, that's one big Red Lored Amazon!

The serve arm bits that you are receiving has much to do with the length of his beak. Shaping the upper and/or lower structure should be left to an Avian Vet. Over-growth of that structure can be the result of a lack of use, all the way too, an underlying health problem. In combination with his longer claws (nails), they combine to support a visit to the Vet's office for trimming and testing.

Please take the time to read or re-read the first Thread in the Amazon Forum regarding reading Amazon body language.

Your goal should be learning from your Amazon. Biting and other behaviors are a reaction to what we and those around your parrot are doing. It is not the fault of your Amazon! If, you always start from this position, you will quickly become aware of what your Amazon is trying to tell you, i.e. you need to learn Amazon.

Click to expand...

I know right? He's huge. And thanks for the good comment. But I have been to the avian vet and she told me that the beak and claws werent that over grown to be fixed yet. His claws I can clip my self, but i'm just afraid to clip too much. Even though they aren't sharp at all. I think I'll just leave them until the next 5 months for the next visit so they can fix his claws and beak. They took blood samples and checked his liver a.s.o and did x-rays, (which cost me a ****load of money) and he was all healthy and fine. I am still learning from my Male amazon. Hell he even says new words every month that I haven't heard. Though not very clear as it's an old mans voice. Thing is I have no issues learning and knowing when my female Blue front wants to do something evil, then I can simply tell by the fluffing of the feathers, the stance, the eye pupils. But with emil, none of that shows until he attacks, except his eye pupils. So it's really hard to read him. But I'm working on it.

Holy Giant Red Lored! :11: Absolutely STUNNING! :heart: Look at the size of his feet! FAINT!!!!

You rendered me speechless. :52:

JerseyWendy said:

Holy Giant Red Lored! :11: Absolutely STUNNING! :heart: Look at the size of his feet! FAINT!!!!

You rendered me speechless. :52:

Click to expand...

Haha I told you he's special! And my hands are quite big as well, and he makes them look tiny. I've proven science wrong hahah. Why do I feel a little special now?

he is truly a beautiful bird, wow.
texsize