Great illustration of blue front subspecies

Kiwibird · Oct 19, 2016

Randomly found this great illustration of the difference in colorations between the 2 subspecies of blue fronts and thought I'd share

:

It is still a mystery to me why the a.a's are more common in Europe and Australia where the a.x.'s seem more common in the Americas and middle east. Kind of an interesting thing to see how their wild cousins were exported, but WHY did the subspecies end up in such different distribution patterns in the pet trade? Seems to me they'd be fairly evenly represented all over.

Terry57 · Oct 19, 2016

Thank you for sharing this, April..I always wondered what the differences in appearance were.

SailBoat · Oct 19, 2016

Thank-you, April. They are truly 'great' illustrations of our shared Love for the Blue-Fronted Amazon family!

Its been a very long time since I had heard about the New World trade process /industry. In the deep fog of my memories, I recall something about North America placing import restrictions or limiting numbers from some regions and not others. I recall that it was at a meeting of the Amazon Society and that the presenter was with the UK Amazon Society. Sorry, but the fog thickens at that point.

From April's Thread: "It is still a mystery to me why the a.a's are more common in Europe and Australia where the a.x.'s seem more common in the Americas and middle east. Kind of an interesting thing to see how their wild cousins were exported, but WHY did the subspecies end up in such different distribution patterns in the pet trade? Seems to me they'd be fairly evenly represented all over. "

I do recall that the a.a's that had been in North America had been heavy interbreed to a point that their overall size had decreased and their coloration had muted. At or prior to this point, a.x.'s had been entering North America. But, I will not testify to that being fully factual.

My quick search is not finding any writings on their importing.

Kiwibird · Oct 19, 2016

SailBoat said:
Thank-you, April. They are truly 'great' illustrations of our shared Love for the Blue-Fronted Amazon family!

Its been a very long time since I had heard about the New World trade process /industry. In the deep fog of my memories, I recall something about North America placing import restrictions or limiting numbers from some regions and not others. I recall that it was at a meeting of the Amazon Society and that the presenter was with the UK Amazon Society. Sorry, but the fog thickens at that point.

From April's Thread: "It is still a mystery to me why the a.a's are more common in Europe and Australia where the a.x.'s seem more common in the Americas and middle east. Kind of an interesting thing to see how their wild cousins were exported, but WHY did the subspecies end up in such different distribution patterns in the pet trade? Seems to me they'd be fairly evenly represented all over. "

I do recall that the a.a's that had been in North America had been heavy interbreed to a point that their overall size had decreased and their coloration had muted. At or prior to this point, a.x.'s had been entering North America. But, I will not testify to that being fully factual.

My quick search is not finding any writings on their importing.

Very interesting. From all I can find the a.a's range is greater covering parts of Paraguay and Brazil whilst the a.x's is mostly concentrated in Brazil. It would make sense their natural ranges could explain the distribution differences if some countries allowed importation from one region more openly than another. We were also told shortly after getting Kiwi he was a "chaco" blue front. No doubt he's an a.x but the term "chaco" (from my research) seems to be little more than a tactic to up the price on baby a.x blue fronts as it cannot be verified from what precise region of Brazil their wild caught predecessors came from. Any insight into that one?

So are the a.a's smaller due to human meddling or are they naturally smaller and interbreeding made them even moreso? I always thought they were naturally a bit smaller than the a.x's.

Kiwibird · Oct 19, 2016

Terry57 said:
Thank you for sharing this, April..I always wondered what the differences in appearance were.

It's a much better illustration than ones I've seen before for differentiating between the 2. A.a's have more patchy blue all over the head and face, less yellow and more red on the wings. The a.x's have less blue concentrated mostly on the front near their cere, more yellow and prominent yellow on the tops of the wings.

I've also hear the smaller a.a's have a calmer temperament more in line with smaller amazons where the a.x's are the big rowdy troublemakers placing BFA's in the "hot 3" category

chris.carr11.cc · Oct 19, 2016

Kiwibird said:
Randomly found this great illustration of the difference in colorations between the 2 subspecies of blue fronts and thought I'd share:

It is still a mystery to me why the a.a's are more common in Europe and Australia where the a.x.'s seem more common in the Americas and middle east. Kind of an interesting thing to see how their wild cousins were exported, but WHY did the subspecies end up in such different distribution patterns in the pet trade? Seems to me they'd be fairly evenly represented all over.

The bottom image almost looks like a cross between a blue front and a white fronted like what I have. especially with the red on the chest as well. Almost wonder if it was a hybrid or something between the 2 species of birds

SailBoat · Oct 19, 2016

Kiwibird said:
SailBoat said:

Thank-you, April. They are truly 'great' illustrations of our shared Love for the Blue-Fronted Amazon family!

Its been a very long time since I had heard about the New World trade process /industry. In the deep fog of my memories, I recall something about North America placing import restrictions or limiting numbers from some regions and not others. I recall that it was at a meeting of the Amazon Society and that the presenter was with the UK Amazon Society. Sorry, but the fog thickens at that point.

From April's Thread: "It is still a mystery to me why the a.a's are more common in Europe and Australia where the a.x.'s seem more common in the Americas and middle east. Kind of an interesting thing to see how their wild cousins were exported, but WHY did the subspecies end up in such different distribution patterns in the pet trade? Seems to me they'd be fairly evenly represented all over. "

I do recall that the a.a's that had been in North America had been heavy interbreed to a point that their overall size had decreased and their coloration had muted. At or prior to this point, a.x.'s had been entering North America. But, I will not testify to that being fully factual.

My quick search is not finding any writings on their importing.

Click to expand...

Very interesting. From all I can find the a.a's range is greater covering parts of Paraguay and Brazil whilst the a.x's is mostly concentrated in Brazil. It would make sense their natural ranges could explain the distribution differences if some countries allowed importation from one region more openly than another. We were also told shortly after getting Kiwi he was a "chaco" blue front. No doubt he's an a.x but the term "chaco" (from my research) seems to be little more than a tactic to up the price on baby a.x blue fronts as it cannot be verified from what precise region of Brazil their wild caught predecessors came from. Any insight into that one?

So are the a.a's smaller due to human meddling or are they naturally smaller and interbreeding made them even moreso? I always thought they were naturally a bit smaller than the a.x's.

Oh-Boy April, "chaco" brings back some very sweet memories about our Yellow-Winged Amazon. He was also referred to as a "chaco" and when I went searching years ago, I recall finding pretty much the same dead end.

However, I recall something about a Chaco area or region tied to the Yellow-Winged Amazons. I think that I will take a look at that, been a long while and likely worth looking again. Double checking the memories would be worth it. Something about it being South of Brazil just popped up. Not sure if that's a Mind Drift or whether it has merit. Northern Argentina just popped into my mind and that Chaco maybe a State? Ahhh, the joys of the older human mind!!!

Your correct regarding the a.a's being naturally smaller. What I recall from discussion in the Amazon Society and having seeing several that the interbreeding had them as small as a LCA. At that point, market interest fell apart. I have not seem one of those guys in fifteen years, possible longer. Their colors had been so muted that they presented almost as if they had been ill, very dull green body and also the flash feather colors.

SailBoat · Oct 19, 2016

chris.carr11.cc said:
Kiwibird said:

Randomly found this great illustration of the difference in colorations between the 2 subspecies of blue fronts and thought I'd share:

It is still a mystery to me why the a.a's are more common in Europe and Australia where the a.x.'s seem more common in the Americas and middle east. Kind of an interesting thing to see how their wild cousins were exported, but WHY did the subspecies end up in such different distribution patterns in the pet trade? Seems to me they'd be fairly evenly represented all over.

Click to expand...

The bottom image almost looks like a cross between a blue front and a white fronted like what I have. especially with the red on the chest as well. Almost wonder if it was a hybrid or something between the 2 species of birds

You're much closer than you may realize. The full family of Amazons (Genus Amazona) are all DNA related. The recent DNA studies are in the beginning stages of develop a 'family tree' if you will. In the not too distant future and with the aid of a Super Computer, we will have that information.

Edit: Yes, i am repeating the Illustration, they are just so great!!!

Kiwibird · Oct 19, 2016

chris.carr11.cc said:
The bottom image almost looks like a cross between a blue front and a white fronted like what I have. especially with the red on the chest as well. Almost wonder if it was a hybrid or something between the 2 species of birds

Very possible. All amazons are related, as Sailboat said. Though I will note that on live blue fronts, the patches in these images that appear white are in fact a very pale yellow which looks almost white against the deeper, brighter yellow.

I also want to embarrass my own blue front by asking- is it normal for them to have blue around their vent

He has more blue under there than on his actual front lol. We jokingly call him the "blue rumped" amazon, as it seems more suiting to his actual colorations

Kiwibird · Oct 19, 2016

SailBoat said:
Oh-Boy April, "chaco" brings back some very sweet memories about our Yellow-Winged Amazon. He was also referred to as a "chaco" and when I went searching years ago, I recall finding pretty much the same dead end.

However, I recall something about a Chaco area or region tied to the Yellow-Winged Amazons. I think that I will take a look at that, been a long while and likely worth looking again. Double checking the memories would be worth it. Something about it being South of Brazil just popped up. Not sure if that's a Mind Drift or whether it has merit. Northern Argentina just popped into my mind and that Chaco maybe a State? Ahhh, the joys of the older human mind!!!

Your correct regarding the a.a's being naturally smaller. What I recall from discussion in the Amazon Society and having seeing several that the interbreeding had them as small as a LCA. At that point, market interest fell apart. I have not seem one of those guys in fifteen years, possible longer. Their colors had been so muted that they presented almost as if they had been ill, very dull green body and also the flash feather colors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Chaco

Also seems I got my ranges confused (I should know better than to not fact-check myself before posting and sound like a fool:29

. It is the a.a's with their range more concentrated in Brazil and the a.x's who are more widely spread out. Interesting that their exportation actually increased their natural range instead of pushing them to the brink of extinction like so many other parrot species:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-fronted_amazon

SailBoat · Oct 19, 2016

Kiwibird said:
chris.carr11.cc said:

The bottom image almost looks like a cross between a blue front and a white fronted like what I have. especially with the red on the chest as well. Almost wonder if it was a hybrid or something between the 2 species of birds

Click to expand...

Very possible. All amazons are related, as Sailboat said. Though I will note that on live blue fronts, the patches in these images that appear white are in fact a very pale yellow which looks almost white against the deeper, brighter yellow.

I also want to embarrass my own blue front by asking- is it normal for them to have blue around their vent He has more blue under there than on his actual front lol. We jokingly call him the "blue rumped" amazon, as it seems more suiting to his actual colorations

I sincerely hope that Kiwi is napping at this moment!!!

But yaaa, our guy had that 'coloration' also. I must admit to not being an 'Amazon Tipper!' Well, other people's Amazons, that is! I do target, training our Amazon's to enjoy being tipper onto their backs to support, easy and less stress during our Avian Vet visits. And so, yes I admit to looking and he's the only one that had that coloration of all our Amazons.

Hey, you had better write this up quickly! I have not seen this as part of a description, let alone in a 'detailed descriptions' of the different Blue Fronted Amazons. There is now written proof here that you are the first to identify this as a description of this marking.

STUDY NOTICE: As Part of an Informal Amazon Forum Member Study - I am asking that all members 'So Owned' by a Blue-Fronted Amazon please check the rump region of their BFA (fully family) for the presents of blue feathering near /around the rump region. Quickly reporting such finds will great easy the current 'Owner' induced discomfort and Thank-You in Advance! Kiwi.

At present, we are aware of two BFA's, which are so blessed!

SailBoat · Oct 19, 2016

Kiwibird said:
SailBoat said:

Oh-Boy April, "chaco" brings back some very sweet memories about our Yellow-Winged Amazon. He was also referred to as a "chaco" and when I went searching years ago, I recall finding pretty much the same dead end.

However, I recall something about a Chaco area or region tied to the Yellow-Winged Amazons. I think that I will take a look at that, been a long while and likely worth looking again. Double checking the memories would be worth it. Something about it being South of Brazil just popped up. Not sure if that's a Mind Drift or whether it has merit. Northern Argentina just popped into my mind and that Chaco maybe a State? Ahhh, the joys of the older human mind!!!

Your correct regarding the a.a's being naturally smaller. What I recall from discussion in the Amazon Society and having seeing several that the interbreeding had them as small as a LCA. At that point, market interest fell apart. I have not seem one of those guys in fifteen years, possible longer. Their colors had been so muted that they presented almost as if they had been ill, very dull green body and also the flash feather colors.

Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Chaco

Also seems I got my ranges confused (I should know better than to not fact-check myself before posting and sound like a fool:29. It is the a.a's with their range more concentrated in Brazil and the a.x's who are more widely spread out. Interesting that their exportation actually increased their natural range instead of pushing them to the brink of extinction like so many other parrot species:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-fronted_amazon

Wow, nice to know that I was not 'fully' wandering in a mind drift! Regarding its location - hey, really close anyways!

Thanks for the links. And Yes, really - Thank-You good friend! Your Thread has allowed me to enjoy memories that had set for far too long!

No problem, a bunch more years, you can start legally calling that an Oooops!

Argentina was one of the last Import Countries prior to the full band being set into place.

chris.carr11.cc · Oct 19, 2016

Kiwibird said:
chris.carr11.cc said:

The bottom image almost looks like a cross between a blue front and a white fronted like what I have. especially with the red on the chest as well. Almost wonder if it was a hybrid or something between the 2 species of birds

Click to expand...

Very possible. All amazons are related, as Sailboat said. Though I will note that on live blue fronts, the patches in these images that appear white are in fact a very pale yellow which looks almost white against the deeper, brighter yellow.

I also want to embarrass my own blue front by asking- is it normal for them to have blue around their vent He has more blue under there than on his actual front lol. We jokingly call him the "blue rumped" amazon, as it seems more suiting to his actual colorations

Thats how the white fronted are also. The "White" that is located on the front of the head is a lighter shade of yellow then other amazon (BF/YN/DYH) that blends into the blue towards the back of the head. The only main difference that I see is that mine has read on the front that cover the eyes like the Mexican Amazon. The main different though is mine has a yellow beak like that of the Mexican Amazon rather then the darker beak like the other amazons. Wonder if the White Fronted is a hybrid of the Mexican or Red Speckled with a blue fronted. Interesting seeing all the similarities and differences of all the birds.

SailBoat · Oct 19, 2016

chris.carr11.cc said:
Kiwibird said:

chris.carr11.cc said:

The bottom image almost looks like a cross between a blue front and a white fronted like what I have. especially with the red on the chest as well. Almost wonder if it was a hybrid or something between the 2 species of birds

Click to expand...

Very possible. All amazons are related, as Sailboat said. Though I will note that on live blue fronts, the patches in these images that appear white are in fact a very pale yellow which looks almost white against the deeper, brighter yellow.

I also want to embarrass my own blue front by asking- is it normal for them to have blue around their vent He has more blue under there than on his actual front lol. We jokingly call him the "blue rumped" amazon, as it seems more suiting to his actual colorations

Click to expand...

Thats how the white fronted are also. The "White" that is located on the front of the head is a lighter shade of yellow then other amazon (BF/YN/DYH) that blends into the blue towards the back of the head. The only main difference that I see is that mine has read on the front that cover the eyes like the Mexican Amazon. The main different though is mine has a yellow beak like that of the Mexican Amazon rather then the darker beak like the other amazons. Wonder if the White Fronted is a hybrid of the Mexican or Red Speckled with a blue fronted. Interesting seeing all the similarities and differences of all the birds.

It is very possible that you have just completed /defined, the link line between the Ivory (Yellow) beak Amazons and the dark beak Amazons!!!

Congratulation!!!

Now its time for the DNA studies to family that link line.

FYI: Consider line charting (or using their full names by listing) that for clarity! As non-Amazon members do frequent us and also new Amazon owners that haven't been as attentive will like to better follow your link line.

Again, well done!

chris.carr11.cc · Oct 19, 2016

SailBoat said:
chris.carr11.cc said:

Kiwibird said:

Very possible. All amazons are related, as Sailboat said. Though I will note that on live blue fronts, the patches in these images that appear white are in fact a very pale yellow which looks almost white against the deeper, brighter yellow.

I also want to embarrass my own blue front by asking- is it normal for them to have blue around their vent He has more blue under there than on his actual front lol. We jokingly call him the "blue rumped" amazon, as it seems more suiting to his actual colorations

Click to expand...

Thats how the white fronted are also. The "White" that is located on the front of the head is a lighter shade of yellow then other amazon (BF/YN/DYH) that blends into the blue towards the back of the head. The only main difference that I see is that mine has read on the front that cover the eyes like the Mexican Amazon. The main different though is mine has a yellow beak like that of the Mexican Amazon rather then the darker beak like the other amazons. Wonder if the White Fronted is a hybrid of the Mexican or Red Speckled with a blue fronted. Interesting seeing all the similarities and differences of all the birds.

Click to expand...

It is very possible that you have just completed /defined, the link line between the Ivory (Yellow) beak Amazons and the dark beak Amazons!!!

Congratulation!!!

Now its time for the DNA studies to family that link line.

FYI: Consider line charting (or using their full names by listing) that for clarity! As non-Amazon members do frequent us and also new Amazon owners that haven't been as attentive will like to better follow your link line.

Again, well done!

It would be a really interesting study to do research on the difference between the Amazons and try to trace them back to the original locations and see if the black vs yellow beaks come from different regions or if they just stem from a different breed altogether that mixed to create those breeds of amazons.

Kiwibird · Oct 19, 2016

If I were so inclined, my first step would be to compile a list of all known amazon species, living and extinct (this beautiful book would be a great resource

- https://www.amazon.com/Parrots-Worl.../ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=)

I would then plot the amazon species by beak color and native ranges (including island species) to see what, if any, pattern emerges. One could also use some clever computer skills to plot pictures of amazon species to see if any patterns emerge in head/wing colorations and their natural ranges (i.e. BFAs and DYHs have overlapping ranges and very similar head and wing colors). Could be an interesting project. Could possibly be an interesting collaborative project for some of us amazon enthusiasts on the forum.

chris.carr11.cc · Oct 19, 2016

Kiwibird said:
If I were so inclined, my first step would be to compile a list of all known amazon species, living and extinct (this beautiful book would be a great resource- https://www.amazon.com/Parrots-Worl.../ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=)

I would then plot the amazon species by beak color and native ranges (including island species) to see what, if any, pattern emerges. One could also use some clever computer skills to plot pictures of amazon species to see if any patterns emerge in head/wing colorations and their natural ranges (i.e. BFAs and DYHs have overlapping ranges and very similar head and wing colors). Could be an interesting project. Could possibly be an interesting collaborative project for some of us amazon enthusiasts on the forum.

I think I may order this and a couple of other amazon books when I get paid. Be a really cool project. I'll see about scanning the images in and posting them on my web server and see if I can start to start profiling them and seeing what patterns have occurred.

SailBoat · Oct 19, 2016

chris.carr11.cc said:
Kiwibird said:

If I were so inclined, my first step would be to compile a list of all known amazon species, living and extinct (this beautiful book would be a great resource- https://www.amazon.com/Parrots-Worl.../ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=)

I would then plot the amazon species by beak color and native ranges (including island species) to see what, if any, pattern emerges. One could also use some clever computer skills to plot pictures of amazon species to see if any patterns emerge in head/wing colorations and their natural ranges (i.e. BFAs and DYHs have overlapping ranges and very similar head and wing colors). Could be an interesting project. Could possibly be an interesting collaborative project for some of us amazon enthusiasts on the forum.

Click to expand...

I think I may order this and a couple of other amazon books when I get paid. Be a really cool project. I'll see about scanning the images in and posting them on my web server and see if I can start to start profiling them and seeing what patterns have occurred.

April, correct me if I just walked off the cliff, but I believe that there is a specific book that targets just the known Amazons. I saw it years ago! That would be a much better source document.

Love the idea! I'm going to check with my local Parrot Club for the Amazon book.

chris.carr11.cc · Oct 19, 2016

SailBoat said:
chris.carr11.cc said:

Kiwibird said:

If I were so inclined, my first step would be to compile a list of all known amazon species, living and extinct (this beautiful book would be a great resource- https://www.amazon.com/Parrots-Worl.../ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=)

I would then plot the amazon species by beak color and native ranges (including island species) to see what, if any, pattern emerges. One could also use some clever computer skills to plot pictures of amazon species to see if any patterns emerge in head/wing colorations and their natural ranges (i.e. BFAs and DYHs have overlapping ranges and very similar head and wing colors). Could be an interesting project. Could possibly be an interesting collaborative project for some of us amazon enthusiasts on the forum.

Click to expand...

I think I may order this and a couple of other amazon books when I get paid. Be a really cool project. I'll see about scanning the images in and posting them on my web server and see if I can start to start profiling them and seeing what patterns have occurred.

Click to expand...

April, correct me if I just walked off the cliff, but I believe that there is a specific book that targets just the known Amazons. I saw it years ago! That would be a much better source document.

Love the idea! I'm going to check with my local Parrot Club for the Amazon book.

I found this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia...d-3035-4a40-b691-0eefb1a18396&pf_rd_i=desktop

Not sure if that's what your looking for, but I was debating on grabbing that one when I get paid also.

Kiwibird · Oct 19, 2016

chris.carr11.cc said:
Kiwibird said:

If I were so inclined, my first step would be to compile a list of all known amazon species, living and extinct (this beautiful book would be a great resource- https://www.amazon.com/Parrots-Worl.../ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=)

I would then plot the amazon species by beak color and native ranges (including island species) to see what, if any, pattern emerges. One could also use some clever computer skills to plot pictures of amazon species to see if any patterns emerge in head/wing colorations and their natural ranges (i.e. BFAs and DYHs have overlapping ranges and very similar head and wing colors). Could be an interesting project. Could possibly be an interesting collaborative project for some of us amazon enthusiasts on the forum.

Click to expand...

I think I may order this and a couple of other amazon books when I get paid. Be a really cool project. I'll see about scanning the images in and posting them on my web server and see if I can start to start profiling them and seeing what patterns have occurred.

Already brainstorming here on the best way to plot the data in a way that makes sense

This could be a cool thing to work on and see what the bright minds here can come up with about the feathery little devils:44::44::44:

Great illustration of blue front subspecies

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Yellow Naped Amazon for first bird!

Amy and Salty..

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