Kizzy testing her limits

It's been a very long time since I had to deal with a bird pushing the limits and this is the first bird I've worked with who was fully flighted.

Over twenty years ago, I met Sally Blanchard and played with her black-headed caique, Spike. I still have a feather he moulted. I read every article Sally Blanchard wrote for Bird Talk magazine and subscribed to her newsletter for a time. I do not have her book.

I have two different editions of Mattie Sue Athan's book, but I haven't read it in quite some time. I remember applying what worked with certain parrots and discarding the rest, as needed.

I'm in the middle of reading the Parrot Wizard's Guide to a Well-Behaved Parrot. I decided the clicker was completely unnecessary and right now I'm not terribly keen on his idea of limiting food intake. Kizzy is much more cooperative and gentle when her crop is full. Also, he makes a ridiculous claim: Bird-proofing your house for a clipped parrot is just as hard as it is for a flighted parrot. Baloney. This isn't a comment on the clipped vs. non-clipped debate. It's just an observation that anyone should be able to make, probably a "talking point" regurgitated without actually thinking things through. I never had to hang streamers around a ceiling fan when I had clipped parrots. Nor did I have to keep a constant monitor Gabby's movements. Kizzy, on the other hand, can get herself into trouble very quickly with a few flaps of her wings.

I used to use "a bitten hand is an unsteady hand," and it worked with 85% of parrots, including my own Amazon parrot Gabby. Now it seems to have fallen out of favor with a lot of people. It's so ingrained in me that I can't help jerking my hand when too much bite force is applied. It's too early to tell if this will work or simply anger the flying toddler. It once failed miserably when I tried to use it with a scarlet macaw. Long story short: Ignoring the bird worked and after we kissed and made up, she never bit me again.

I may have already made a mistake by letting Kizzy roughhouse with toys while I'm holding her. She wants to play and it has been very hard to resist joining her. Unfortunately, she gets too worked up and can't resist biting a finger instead of toys. I don't recall ever roughhousing with Gabby. I'm not sure if it's because he got too worked up and bit me or if it was because the literature said it was not a good idea. Either way, he could entertain himself and I'm not sure Kizzy is quite there yet. Gabby was roughly the age Kizzy is now when I adopted him.

I respect the people here. Understand I have forgotten a lot of what I learned and that some of what I learned may be hogwash, anyway. With time, protocols change, as well they should as new information becomes available. Also, a flighted Amazon is a completely new dynamic for me.

Part of the problem is I'm so busy trying to work with her on socialization, harness training and target training, I literally don't have a lot of time for reading, so I'd like to know which sources would be the most helpful.

Thanks in advance.

Gosh.. your mentioning "Bird Talk" magazine took me back 20 plus years. I use to subscribe. Back in those days there was no internet, no forums.. occasionally you could get good tips from a reputable pet shop owner. Lots of what I've learned over the years came from trial and error... including things like diet, health, and behavior. As you seem to be pointing out, there is lots of bad info out there. Lucky me, I ran across a breeder/trainer that had a house slap full of well behaved exotic birds and she helped me a lot. I wish she had written a book or 2 of her own, she was that awesome. I found the solution to ceiling fans on my own..(I don't turn them on.. hah)
There are 2 major issues ya hear over and over regarding birds. #1.. they bite.. #2..They are noisy. As far as noisy is concerned, if you have a bird that's quiet you probably have a sick bird. If you have a constant screamer it means you are doing something wrong and need to take a deeper look as to why. As for biting birds. Yes birds are going to bite. Some can be real vicious and if that's the case again, you are doing something wrong and need to examine the whys on that too.
Like you, I don't feel the need for a "clicker". I have yet to see any wild bird flocks with clickers to communicate with each other and they get on just fine. Our companion birds regard us as part of the flock (if we are lucky) hence will respond really well to simple words and phrases, gestures, and touch. Far from being some sort of "bird whisperer" I have figured out that if you can communicate with birds on their level respecting the fact they are birds (not human toddlers) you can solve the screamer and/or biter issues should they come up. As far as diet.. they have made leaps and bounds in the last 20 years as to birds need and some great pelleted diets are out there along with list of healthy fresh foods we can feed them. I recall way back when.. I was told the best thing to feed parrots is "what you eat". Well.. maybe it beat the seed diets but didn't take long I had an overweight bird. Lesson learned there.

Between the two of you, you have it pretty much defined. Regarding 'Parrot Wizard' I have found that his books make great chew toys.

My foundation in working with Amazons is based on Sally's approach blended with a couple of others lesser know individuals. The "It is NEVER the fault of the Amazon! It is ALWAYS the fault of the Human!" grew from their works.

One of the biggest challenges that individuals who take on baby Amazons is when they start testing their limits. Better stated as PUSHING their limits in the relationship. From the point they start and for the next eight years they will trail you every day! Smile and know you're baby is growing up, its all part of the process!

In their home regions, it is very common to see Amazon family with third and fourth year members still around and 'helping.' That tiny piece of information is critically important in understanding that your Amazon needs something to do. Something that makes s/he part of the family unit. Wrench13 is one of the best examples of this in his working with Salty. That everyday 'work' that they do (learning tricks) is critical in their relationship and Salty's behavior. Not saying that there is not those days, but they are fewer.

SailBoat said:

Between the two of you, you have it pretty much defined. Regarding 'Parrot Wizard' I have found that his books make great chew toys.

My foundation in working with Amazons is based on Sally's approach blended with a couple of others lesser know individuals. The "It is NEVER the fault of the Amazon! It is ALWAYS the fault of the Human!" grew from their works.

One of the biggest challenges that individuals who take on baby Amazons is when they start testing their limits. Better stated as PUSHING their limits in the relationship. From the point they start and for the next eight years they will trail you every day! Smile and know you're baby is growing up, its all part of the process!

In their home regions, it is very common to see Amazon family with third and fourth year members still around and 'helping.' That tiny piece of information is critically important in understanding that your Amazon needs something to do. Something that makes s/he part of the family unit. Wrench13 is one of the best examples of this in his working with Salty. That everyday 'work' that they do (learning tricks) is critical in their relationship and Salty's behavior. Not saying that there is not those days, but they are fewer.

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Wrench13 is an amazing parront. He's so patient and loving with Salty. As a YSA, I think Salty is perhaps naturally better-behaved than Kizzy, but he's still an Amazon. It's quite a testament to his patience, kindness and persistence that Salty is such an incredible parrot.

I used Sally Blanchard's approach with Gabby and it worked beautifully. I definitely need to order her book if I can find it. Yes, Gabby tested me, but I at least had a basic road map of how to proceed. Once he was fairly well trained, all I had to do was give the "up" command and he was immediately handleable again. In rare cases of extreme Amazon overload, it was best to leave him alone until he calmed down. A serious bite from Gabby was very rare (and my fault). A hard pinch was fairly rare (also my fault). I still miss him. When I read about Patcho's illness today, I broke down. The week Gabby was ill was so difficult: X-rays; gram stains; cloacal probes; antibiotics; antifungals; subcutaneous hydration; drastic upturns and downturns in his condition that gave me hope and dashed it to pieces over and over again. I hate to see someone else going through that with their precious fid. I'm hoping with all my heart Patcho's outcome is different.

Thank you for that bit of information about Amazons in the wild. Acorn woodpeckers also form family units. They're indigenous to the area where I live, so I've spent a bit of time observing them. I found myself wondering if parrots do the same thing. Now I know. It makes perfect sense juveniles would help their parents, considering how long it takes them to reach sexual maturity.

Much of the "Parrot Wizard's" book details how to deprive a parrot of food so that is always a bit hungry, doesn't gain weight and is easier to work with. I believe I gave it a fair hearing, but it didn't take me long to figure out Kizzy is much better behaved when she has a full crop. As a basically wild creature, Kizzy's sense of security stems from reassurance she won't go hungry. You'd think Michael Sahzin would have figured that out by now. I've found that Amazon parrots work very well with full crops, sometimes even if you've recently fed them their favorite treat. They love attention, drama and food, so it is entirely unnecessary to half-starve them to get them to cooperate. It's counterproductive at worst. If you give an Amazon a treat and make a big fuss over how well they did something, it's usually enough to keep them interested.

Kizzy has only been weaned for a couple of weeks and sometimes I feel she doesn't get enough calories. I hand-fed her just now to supplement the day's calories and boy did she ever get mad when I went to wipe her face! When she was a tiny baby, she actually loved having her face wiped. Fast-forward a few months and she is pissed! I accidentally squirted the formula down her face and neck. Because she can't clean her head, I had to do it. I was surprised at how angry she got! I had to restrain her for the first time in order to remove the formula and she gave me one heckuva pinch (yep, my fault; I'll have to figure out what's going on)! My sweet little baby has turned into an Amazon parrot. XD Due to past experience, I knew it was coming. It's just a question of how to deal with it. She's her own little autonomous being who needs to be respected, but trained.

So well said!

I believe that you are looking for Sally Blanchard's COMPANION PARROT HANDBOOK, second edition. Last I head, she still has several left and can be purchased at her Website. You can also find them on Amazon.com and a couple other used book sites.

She also has a book dedicated to Amazons and her Bite Book is great.

Loving Amazon! Have two very separate, but very related meanings!

Well gosh, thanks the two of you. Many is the nite where I am tired or preoccupied, and stopping to set up and do our training session is a thought, but that all it is. I dont allow myself the option of skipping training, but I let Salty have it, and he will occasionally show that he is not into training that nite, and I will cut it short or not do it.

Lady Hawk I got Sallys book a month after we got Salty, and its our bible ( after birdman666 and 'Boats here). I find she writes more with Greys and Cockatoos in the back of her mind, but a lot of what she writes is dead on. I find with Amazons you got to read the body language. Even with Salty, he can get overloaded and put that little bit more pressure and viola! a bite. LOL, happened last nite matter of fact. When I get home every nite, Salty gets a special treat and we have our hello ritual, which ends with him on my shoulder for a good scratch. Last nite I failed to see how amped up he was, and he beaked just a little too hard on my ear. He got a short 1 min time out for that, and was good as gold all nite after that. But it was my error, he was weaving a bit much ( i think they are really just improving their 'aim' when they do that) and eyes pinned. I should have let him cool down.

I flat out dont like the advice the parrot 'wizzard' gives.

Talk to us more about rough housing with Kizzie. DO you ever just do it with the 2 of you?
Will she let you play with her while she is on her back?
Have you played with her with a small bit of towel as the 'toy' ( not much maybe 6" square)? Salty was not keen at first but likes it a lot now, an it helps him be desensitized to a full size towel, like at the vet.

Heck.. all these books I've never even heard of. Looks like I need to catch up on some reading. Over the past year or so I've popped in and out of this forum but the last few days with some of the threads.. kinda made me feel like I've found a home. Its refreshing to see there are other folks are around that value their critters and much as this old fart. I also was unaware of that tidbit on Amazons in the wild. But I had an experience about 30 years ago that left me impressed. I was on a boat in the wilds of South Carolina by myself on a winters day fishing and it turned in to a day of bird watching. A flock of about 50 crows settled in a tall tree near me.. and let me tell you, they put on a show. It was apparent during watching them interact just how smart they really were and all that racket coming from that tree was not just a bunch of mindless chatter. These critters were talking to each other in "crow". Their vocabulary was huge and I could make out repeated "crow" words and phrases, watched the gestures they made during their interactions. I guess one would have to have been there to appreciate just how interesting it was. I quit fishing and just watched them for several hours. My understanding, crows are the most intelligent birds in North America.. now I believe it... and I imagine they are on par with the Amazons at least. I reckon that's when it hit me how important it was to work at communication with my birds... and been working at it every since with a fair amount of success. Now couple that with a forum that other folks value the companionship of these amazing critters.. where one can glean from others experience.. hah.. this hagged out old fart is a happy camper.
Mr Sailboat... your advice. Being of limited funds here, of all the books you have read, which one do u suggest is best?
appreciate your suggestion. Thanks

wrench13 said:

Talk to us more about rough housing with Kizzie. DO you ever just do it with the 2 of you?
Will she let you play with her while she is on her back?
Have you played with her with a small bit of towel as the 'toy' ( not much maybe 6" square)? Salty was not keen at first but likes it a lot now, an it helps him be desensitized to a full size towel, like at the vet.

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Well, I can answer most of your question with a recent video:

[ame="https://youtu.be/IGi69UQklYM"]Baby Amazon Parrot Lies on Her Back - YouTube[/ame]

As for a towel, I used to use them in cuddle sessions when she was still very young and cuddly. I think I just realized that everything we did in cuddle sessions needs to be refitted to work during play sessions. She's so playful that even head scratches usually turn into play.

I do believe she is learning to limit her bite pressure. Aside from the really painful nip she gave me last night for wiping off her face, she's been a bit better. She is more relaxed on her back, as well. Now that I've written this, she'll ramp up into test mode again. XD Typical Amazon behavior.

As you may have noticed, slightly shaking the toy in her mouth sometimes leads her to regurgitate for it. I'm not sure I should encourage that.

BTW, I just reduced my energy level and held Kizzy on her back. I forgot that this was an excellent way to get a parrot to reduce her energy level. I didn't have a toy between her beak and my fingers. I let her mouth them and she was quite gentle.

Some of Sally Blanchard's lessons are coming back.

Seems Kizzy lets you handle her enough to get the harness on. She will put her head thru the head loop for a treat, right? She is beautiful in that video, such a lively glint to her eyes and playful in her body language.

haha Kizzy is just working out what she can get away with, she'll learn pretty quick. She's a smart bird

as for parrot wizard WOW advising to limit food (or starve as I'd call it) is barbaric and dare I say advocating animal cruelty. I've seen some of his blogs and videos and they were always off to me, more forcing birds to do things than letting them and that little bit of info is enough to turn me away from him forever.

I find the best training methods are the ones you adapt yourself, no one person has the magical answer to a happy friendly parrot. I'm sure they'd be busy if they did exist, but lots of people with ideas exist. One of the reasons I love this place is finding the different methods people use. I would know genuinely nothing if I didn't stumble across this forum.

IMO there's no major difference between training a flighted bird and a clipped bird, only real difference is the flighted bird can choose to leave if they're done with the session while a clipped bird is going to be slightly more prone to giving a bite to tell you "no more" aside from that really a flighted bird needs the lessons more ingrained due to that element of choice they have

saying all that I could be talking nonsense, it's a very slow day at work today!

LordTriggs said:

haha Kizzy is just working out what she can get away with, she'll learn pretty quick. She's a smart bird

as for parrot wizard WOW advising to limit food (or starve as I'd call it) is barbaric and dare I say advocating animal cruelty. I've seen some of his blogs and videos and they were always off to me, more forcing birds to do things than letting them and that little bit of info is enough to turn me away from him forever.

I find the best training methods are the ones you adapt yourself, no one person has the magical answer to a happy friendly parrot. I'm sure they'd be busy if they did exist, but lots of people with ideas exist. One of the reasons I love this place is finding the different methods people use. I would know genuinely nothing if I didn't stumble across this forum.

IMO there's no major difference between training a flighted bird and a clipped bird, only real difference is the flighted bird can choose to leave if they're done with the session while a clipped bird is going to be slightly more prone to giving a bite to tell you "no more" aside from that really a flighted bird needs the lessons more ingrained due to that element of choice they have

saying all that I could be talking nonsense, it's a very slow day at work today!

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I am not a strong believer in Behavioral Training programs that use deprivation of any kind to Train a Companion Parrot to provide specific 'tricks!' I am not going to go into a deep discussion as to the potential problems that such a program can cause if not correctly applied.

My point regarding 'The Wizard' is that for me, his approaches are variations of other well-known individuals in the fields his writings include. When compared to the original Author's writings, they lack the important precautions and proper processes that makes critical differences to the likely success and safeguards of the Parrot. From my perspective, his interest was more in creating a series of Writings and Followers than to provide proper credit to those original Authors that are either not credited at all or with little more than their name.

Those who develop original ideas should always be credited for their contribution to the development of Avian Knowledge. Those who use their hard work without properly acknowledging and presentation the concept in total, to highlight themselves should be seeing in harsh Sunlight.

SailBoat said:

From my perspective, his interest was more in creating a series of Writings and Followers than to provide proper credit to those original Authors that are either not credited at all or with little more than their name.

Those who develop original ideas should always be credited for their contribution to the development of Avian Knowledge. Those who use their hard work without properly acknowledging and presentation the concept in total, to highlight themselves should be seeing in harsh Sunlight.

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When I contacted him, I was panicking a bit because I'd decided not to clip Kizzy's wings. It was a scary time for me. I'm still a little frightened, but I don't want to extinguish the joy I see on her face when she flies. When she says, "Whe-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-ee!" that's just icing on the cake.

The "parrot wizard" wanted quite a bit of money for a consultation. Now that I've read most of his book, I'm glad I didn't pay him for one. You're right. There's nothing new in his books. If anything, they're a step backward. That picture of how to hold a target stick, clicker and treat in one hand is hilarious. It should be in a contortionist manual, not a parrot training book. I wonder if he started off training dogs and assumed parrots needed a clicker, too? That's completely backward thinking. Parrots can distinguish fine variations in human speech. With a bridge word and praise, you can express your level of satisfaction. A clicker? Not so much.

I thought fresh young eyes might reveal a better way of doing things. In many cases, they do. But so far, the self-proclaimed "parrot wizard" doesn't live up to the hype. Thanks to people like Sally Blanchard, I've probably forgotten more than he knows. It will come back to me just like hand-feeding and weaning procedures did. My mind is open to new ways of doing things, but I have a feeling Michael Sahzin's mind might be closed to old ways of doing things. I will read the rest of his book and try to keep an open mind. Maybe there's something I can use amid the horrible "starve your bird" advice.

I just now ordered Sally Blanchard's Companion Parrot Handbook: Using Nurturing Guidance to Create the Best Companion Parrot Possible: Aka, the Happy Bappy Fun Book. The Beak Book is out of print, so the lowest price on Amazon was around $160! There has to be a cheaper one somewhere out there.

By the way, Spike the caique was a really fun bird. When Sally Blanchard came to speak to the Fresno, CA bird club, I was invited to have dinner with the people who were hosting the event, so I had lots of time to spend with Spikey LeBec. I never got tired of having him hop across the table and neither did he. He was an extremely well-behaved little caique.

As an aside: I was able to get in touch with Dr. Irene Pepperberg as one of my sources for a college paper. The Internet didn't exist back then, so I got to talk with her on the phone. That was really exciting for me! The prof let everyone in the class ahead of me read his or her paper. When he told me there was no time to read mine, I insisted, saying I'd been able to contact a world-renowned animal communication researcher and that everyone should be interested in what she had to say. They mostly looked at me as if I'd sprouted wings, but I got to read my paper. I wonder if it's still hiding away somewhere under a pile of papers? Alex became much more famous after that, so I doubt I would have been able to talk with Dr. Pepperberg at a later date. I cried for a long time when I found out Alex had passed away. Even though I never met him, his life profoundly touched mine.

Ladyhawk said:

The "parrot wizard" wanted quite a bit of money for a consultation. Now that I've read most of his book, I'm glad I didn't pay him for one. You're right. There's nothing new in his books. If anything, they're a step backward. That picture of how to hold a target stick, clicker and treat in one hand is hilarious. It should be in a contortionist manual, not a parrot training book. I wonder if he started off training dogs and assumed parrots needed a clicker, too? That's completely backward thinking. Parrots can distinguish fine variations in human speech. With a bridge word and praise, you can express your level of satisfaction. A clicker? Not so much.

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Yeah everything about the parrot wizard seems to be more about money and being in control over others than caring for a pet. I looked at that picture and for me that's physically impossible due to some issues with my hands. I can tell you that they can understand different wordings used. I would say "good boy" "good bird" "good baby" "good" or even just a "yay" they more understand the tone than the words themselves IMO. Sure a clicker does work but it's not entirely necessary.

Ladyhawk said:

When I contacted him, I was panicking a bit because I'd decided not to clip Kizzy's wings. It was a scary time for me. I'm still a little frightened, but I don't want to extinguish the joy I see on her face when she flies. When she says, "Whe-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-ee!" that's just icing on the cake.

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Oh my god that sounds adorable! You need to get a video of her screaming in delight!

Yeah, clickers are not necessary for training birds. I think it's great that the Parrot Wizard is training his birds, but he shouldn't expect everyone else to deprive their parrots of food just so they can perform better. I agree with some things he says, like how he thinks it's important for parrots to fly, but the deprivation of food is just going a little too far. It's not the most important thing in the world for your parrot to do cute tricks, sure it's fun and it builds trust with your bird but it's not important enough to deprive your parrots of food.

FlyBirdiesFly said:

Yeah, clickers are not necessary for training birds. I think it's great that the Parrot Wizard is training his birds, but he shouldn't expect everyone else to deprive their parrots of food just so they can perform better. I agree with some things he says, like how he thinks it's important for parrots to fly, but the deprivation of food is just going a little too far. It's not the most important thing in the world for your parrot to do cute tricks, sure it's fun and it builds trust with your bird but it's not important enough to deprive your parrots of food.

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Depriving an Amazon of food in order to train him is unnecessary and counterproductive. Gabby worked on a full crop all the time. He still loved the treats and attention he received. He did lots of tricks and enjoyed doing them. I never did anything to force him to learn the tricks and as a result, he loved doing them. He was at his most animated and happy while showing off.

Kizzy sometimes gets mad if she thinks I'm not "paying" her enough. If she thinks she did something right and I don't reward her, she gets nippy. It's possible she isn't getting quite enough calories. As a recently-weaned baby, she still needs lots of support. I monitor her food intake and still offer the occasional warm formula. Still, Gabby would never have had such an attitude during training. Then again, Kizzy is smarter than he was. That will definitely present challenges I never faced while working with Gabby.

Ladyhawk said:

FlyBirdiesFly said:

Yeah, clickers are not necessary for training birds. I think it's great that the Parrot Wizard is training his birds, but he shouldn't expect everyone else to deprive their parrots of food just so they can perform better. I agree with some things he says, like how he thinks it's important for parrots to fly, but the deprivation of food is just going a little too far. It's not the most important thing in the world for your parrot to do cute tricks, sure it's fun and it builds trust with your bird but it's not important enough to deprive your parrots of food.

Click to expand...

Depriving an Amazon of food in order to train him is unnecessary and counterproductive. Gabby worked on a full crop all the time. He still loved the treats and attention he received. He did lots of tricks and enjoyed doing them. I never did anything to force him to learn the tricks and as a result, he loved doing them. He was at his most animated and happy while showing off.

Kizzy sometimes gets mad if she thinks I'm not "paying" her enough. If she thinks she did something right and I don't reward her, she gets nippy. It's possible she isn't getting quite enough calories. As a recently-weaned baby, she still needs lots of support. I monitor her food intake and still offer the occasional warm formula. Still, Gabby would never have had such an attitude during training. Then again, Kizzy is smarter than he was. That will definitely present challenges I never faced while working with Gabby.

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Gabby was just more forgiving of his Human!