Harness training = stubborn, stubborn Kizzy

[Ladyhawk]

I was just getting back to where we were before I forced the harness on her. I thought I found a treat she would do anything for (unsalted pistachios in the shell) and we were about to make very rapid progress.

Suddenly, Kizzy refuses to work with the harness. Period. She flies away. No amount of cajoling or special treat can get her to cooperate. It's been three days now. Maybe I made the mistake of giving her a day off in the first place. I don't know.

I tried putting her in her cage and "working" with some fake parrots I have, making a big fuss and letting them have all kinds of treats. It was sort of a mean model / rival method. I did it once today and she got very pissed. During her cage time, she first started singing to get my attention and when that didn't work, she beat the crap out of one of her toys.

If jealousy and treats don't work, where can I go from here? I want to use positive reinforcement, but darn if she isn't a stubborn little bird. Just when I think I've made real progress with her, she proves me wrong. Right now she is outsmarting me.

Before posting this, I tried something else. Out of curiosity, I offered the harness as a toy and she beat the crap out of it. She definitely has some issues with it. I have no idea where to go from here.

 

[wrench13]

How long have you been working with her on this? Every night? As a part of other trainng, or just doing this? I so want to help Kizzy enjoy the freedom of going out in harness.

 

[Ladyhawk]

How long have you been working with her on this? Every night? As a part of other trainng, or just doing this? I so want to help Kizzy enjoy the freedom of going out in harness.

So do I. Except for the last three days, I've worked with her every single day since she was around 8-9 weeks old. Usually, I work up to it after tricks she enjoys doing. But she is acting phobic and I don't know why.

I've worked with lots of parrots in my life (most of them when I was younger) and never have I faced such an intelligent, stubborn little girl. She is insanely smart. I would go so far as to say she is the smartest parrot I've ever worked with. If she wants to learn something it doesn't take her very long. She also has her own ideas as to what constitutes a "good enough job" to receive a treat and if I don't give her one, she gets very angry. This little girl is something else.

 

[SailBoat]

Starting Point: It is NEVER the fault of the Amazon!!! It is ALWAYS the fault of the Human!!!

The reality of Harness Training is that it requires that your Parrot has 100% comfort with you doing near anything with her. Plus the harness has been hanging around and she is as comfortable with it as the water and food bowls.

If you, in fact, forced it on her - you are now in the Amazon (dog) House!

Having her 'vent' her displeasure on the harness and as you saw, she had no love for it! Great Idea, much knowledge gained, and a clear statement you will be starting from square one!

You may want to have a long discussion with Wrench13 on the process staring from square one.

 

[Ladyhawk]

Starting Point: It is NEVER the fault of the Amazon!!! It is ALWAYS the fault of the Human!!!

The reality of Harness Training is that it requires that your Parrot has 100% comfort with you doing near anything with her. Plus the harness has been hanging around and she is as comfortable with it as the water and food bowls.

If you, in fact, forced it on her - you are now in the Amazon (dog) House!

Having her 'vent' her displeasure on the harness and as you saw, she had no love for it! Great Idea, much knowledge gained, and a clear statement you will be starting from square one!

You may want to have a long discussion with Wrench13 on the process staring from square one.

Yeah, I know it was my fault and I won't make that mistake again. I thought if I showed her she could go outside and have fun, she'd understand why the harness was a good thing. Instead, I lost all the progress I'd made up to that point and it took us over two weeks to get back to where we were.

Now we're at square one again and this time I don't know why. She suddenly decided she was not going to work with the harness. I don't know what she's thinking, but something made her decide, "No! We simply aren't doing this anymore. I don't care how hard you try to bribe me." I honestly don't know what it was. Wish me luck as I try to figure it out.

The first time, I had to change the "command" word from "on" to "put your head through" and start from the beginning. Maybe this time I should make the harness a simple toy and we can wrestle with it...let her take out her frustrations on it. I don't know if that will help, but it's about all I can think of.

Keep in mind that Salty and Kizzy have vastly different personalities. Kizzy is sensitive and will probably have a bigger negative reaction to my mistakes. My mistakes will be amplified, so I have to be careful going forward.

 

[SailBoat]

Yeah, I know it was my fault and I won't make that mistake again. I thought if I showed her she could go outside and have fun, she'd understand why the harness was a good thing. Instead, I lost all the progress I'd made up to that point and it took us over two weeks to get back to where we were.

Now we're at square one again and this time I don't know why. She suddenly decided she was not going to work with the harness. I don't know what she's thinking, but something made her decide, "No! We simply aren't doing this anymore. I don't care how hard you try to bribe me." I honestly don't know what it was. Wish me luck as I try to figure it out.

The first time, I had to change the "command" word from "on" to "put your head through" and start from the beginning. Maybe this time I should make the harness a simple toy and we can wrestle with it...let her take out her frustrations on it. I don't know if that will help, but it's about all I can think of.

Keep in mind that Salty and Kizzy have vastly different personalities. Kizzy is sensitive and will probably have a bigger negative reaction to my mistakes. My mistakes will be amplified, so I have to be careful going forward.

You Have An Amazon! Yes, a Bit More Sensitive then 'maybe' others, but an Amazon, none the less! You pushed and she pushed back! You forced and she road blocked you! That is NOT sensitive, its stepping forward and clearly saying NO! That is NORMAL Amazon there!

Letting her have her way with that harness is a good idea! It maybe the end of that harness, but that's likely what it will take!

But, you are back to square one!!!

Goal:
Being able to handle your Amazon without her being one bit concerned is where you need to get too! Only Good Things Happens When You Are Handling Her Or Around Her. Once she begins trusting you again! Start with simply holding her in different positions that the Vet would need to examine her. Remember that there are pre-steps to each position. So, its one step at a time, even it it takes eight steps to get the the final position!

Months from now, it will be time to try the harness at that time!

Remember: There is nothing Natural about having a Harness on!!! NOTHING - its Pure Trust!

 

[Ladyhawk]

Well, I got her to put her head through the loop tonight and even drape it over her body. I think that for awhile I should allow her to pull her head back out any time she likes. I'm going to try one more time. OK, I'll just get her to put her head through the loop for now. I don't know why she suddenly gave in tonight. Maybe beating up the harness helped. XD

 

[Anansi]

What has happened with Kizzy is more common than you might think. In fact, it is for this very reason that the DVD that comes with the aviator harness goes through such a laborious and painstaking process for harness training birds. Simply put, baby birds tend to be far more tractable than older ones. So they allow the harness to be put on because it's what their authority figure tells them they're supposed to do.

...and then they grow up. The day comes when they get a bit more independent with their thoughts and desires. So for quite a few, they come to the sudden realization that they don't actually like this! And further... that they don't have to allow it! Lol!

Something similar happened with my Bixby when I was still visiting him at the store while waiting for him to wean. I didn't get to do it the way they say on the DVD, because I never allow my birds to get clipped and the store policy doesn't allow flighted birds out of their cages without a harness. (Sensible enough rule, given the huge picture window at the front of their store. The huge picture window Bixby flew directly into upon his very first flight! Oops!)

So I just put it on him. Which worked well enough... until it didn't. After a few weeks, as he got closer to being fully weaned, he decided this harness nonsense just wasn't for him. Lol! So we went from me putting this harness on him like it was nothing, to him fighting tooth and nail (short of doing anything whatsoever to harm me) to keep me from getting it on.

Here's the thing, though. Through necessity (or rather, picking the lesser of two evils: either force the harness on him, or stop physically interacting with him until he was fully weaned and ready to go home), I actually handled the situation far worse than you did. I had a 10-15 minute wrestling match with him every day that I went to visit him. It was horrible. We always enjoyed our time together afterward, but the first 15 minutes were always a trial!

Anyhow, it took quite some time but I was eventually able to get him into a harness without an epic wrestling match. It all came down to offering treats as bribes and having the perseverance to outlast his stubbornness. Don't get me wrong. He passed before it ever became a smooth and relaxed process, but it was heading that way before the disease with which he was born took him away from me.

Point is, though, that if there was light at the end of the tunnel after so many rounds of daily 15 minute wrestling matches, there is most certainly hope for you and Kizzy. But if she's as stubborn as I think she is, it's going to be a while.

 

[plumsmum2005]

Wow. I only have one suggestion https://www.celltei.com/

 

[wrench13]

I'm sorry if my suggestions backfired with Kizzy.

 

[Scott]

Forgive my naïveté as harness training a parrot in my locale would invite merciless attack from a raptor-rich sky! Thus I have no experience to share.

At the risk of descent into the unknowable depths of parrot sentience and free will, is it possible Kizzy has no desire to harness train? Perhaps taking a break and revisiting at a later time might be productive.

I've come to this thread late and hope the primary protagonists have reached equilibrium. That two bright and fiercely passionate members disagree is no surprise. May the cooling embers lead to a durable understanding if not friendship!

 

[Kiwibird]

We can only get Kiwi in his harness one way- by doing it in a dim room where he can't see too well and quickly buckle that sucker on before he knows what's happening Being in low lighting seems to calm the beastie. Maybe give it a try with Kizzy? We also have the buckle-on feather tether, which IMO is easier to get on (and off!) a resistant bird than the aviator looks to be. Getting Kiwi to stick his head voluntarily into a harness then having to weave and adjust the rest around his body would be about the same odds as a million dollars falling from the sky.

 

[Anansi]

I'm sorry if my suggestions backfired with Kizzy.

No, Al. You can't consider that a backfire. Setbacks like this happen. Whether or not it does depends at least as much on the individual bird as on the technique. Your harness training advice is sound, brother. So let's hear no more of that.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[plumsmum2005]

We can only get Kiwi in his harness one way- by doing it in a dim room where he can't see too well and quickly buckle that sucker on before he knows what's happening Being in low lighting seems to calm the beastie. Maybe give it a try with Kizzy? We also have the buckle-on feather tether, which IMO is easier to get on (and off!) a resistant bird than the aviator looks to be. Getting Kiwi to stick his head voluntarily into a harness then having to weave and adjust the rest around his body would be about the same odds as a million dollars falling from the sky.

My thoughts exactly with Plum. re my link for Celtei.

Low lighting! :45: Must try that with syringe medicating! I might get away intact LOL.

 

[LordTriggs]

We can only get Kiwi in his harness one way- by doing it in a dim room where he can't see too well and quickly buckle that sucker on before he knows what's happening Being in low lighting seems to calm the beastie. Maybe give it a try with Kizzy? We also have the buckle-on feather tether, which IMO is easier to get on (and off!) a resistant bird than the aviator looks to be. Getting Kiwi to stick his head voluntarily into a harness then having to weave and adjust the rest around his body would be about the same odds as a million dollars falling from the sky.

huh, I'll have to remember that for when I get harness training going in the future. I guess they're a little more prepared to be held due to not being able to see as well, makes them a little more dependent on a human for assistance

 

[SailBoat]

We can only get Kiwi in his harness one way- by doing it in a dim room where he can't see too well and quickly buckle that sucker on before he knows what's happening Being in low lighting seems to calm the beastie. Maybe give it a try with Kizzy? We also have the buckle-on feather tether, which IMO is easier to get on (and off!) a resistant bird than the aviator looks to be. Getting Kiwi to stick his head voluntarily into a harness then having to weave and adjust the rest around his body would be about the same odds as a million dollars falling from the sky.

Wow, Julio is on-guard as the lighting dims! It would be a violent, bloody fight to the death (and not his) for the fool that would try such a thing. That time (light condition) is his special prep for sleep time and disturbing of any kind without permission is like assure a fast trip to the ER. The only thing that I can tie it to is that the past owner's care-givers likely tried to towel him during that light condition to put him in the cage for the night. Our other Amazons, far less an issue - but not with him!!! Yup, learned that one the hard way!

 

[Kiwibird]

Wow, Julio is on-guard as the lighting dims! It would be a violent, bloody fight to the death (and not his) for the fool that would try such a thing. That time (light condition) is his special prep for sleep time and disturbing of any kind without permission is like assure a fast trip to the ER. The only thing that I can tie it to is that the past owner's care-givers likely tried to towel him during that light condition to put him in the cage for the night. Our other Amazons, far less an issue - but not with him!!! Yup, learned that one the hard way!

Interesting Julio gets more agitated in low light if disturbed. Kiwi is very docile in low lighting and while I'm sure if you hurt him he'd bite, he actually is MUCH more tolerant of things he'd normally be...uh... less than compliant about.

 

[Ladyhawk]

I'm sorry if my suggestions backfired with Kizzy.

No, Al. You can't consider that a backfire. Setbacks like this happen. Whether or not it does depends at least as much on the individual bird as on the technique. Your harness training advice is sound, brother. So let's hear no more of that.

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Thanks, Anansi. I still think harness training involves pushing just the right amount at the right time, so Al's advice was fine. I underestimated how pissed off Kizzy would get. She is probably not as laid back as Salty. She definitely feels everything much more deeply than my DYH did, so her reactions are going to be stronger.

Al, I never "blamed" you because I never felt there was any blame...well, I didn't until I felt someone was blaming me, which may have not been the case. I simply saw what happened as a setback. I still see it that way.

Any setbacks with harness training are due to a combination of my not sizing up the situation correctly and Kizzy's temperament. It may always be the human's fault, but those mistakes don't happen in a vacuum. They have to take into account the emotional state of the parrot and his or her temperament. I was the one assessing the situation and I assessed incorrectly. You weren't here.

Yesterday morning I emailed Barbara Ehrenreich and just now got her response: "You basically asked for too much behavior too soon. In other words your approximations were too big, a common mistake. It means starting over and being more sensitive to the slightest hint of a fear response and backing off before that point. You can learn more here http://goodbirdinc.blogspot.nl/2009/10/harness-training-your-parrot.html"

Pretty much what I'd figured. This is the kind of input I need.

I'm going to be more careful, but there's a chance I will screw up and push too far too soon again. I'll try not to, but harness training is difficult.

 

[Ladyhawk]

I'm sorry if my suggestions backfired with Kizzy.

Check my response to Anansi. It's not that way at all. Setbacks happen, plus I was the one who should have assessed the situation correctly because I work with her every day.

IMO, too big a deal was made of a simple setback, at least by me and maybe by others, too. No one should feel bad about it. It was a mistake and I'll try not to push her too far in the future. Because I've never harness-trained a bird and because I've rarely dealt with such a sensitive bird, I'm sure I will make more mistakes. I'll try not to, but mistakes are inevitable.

 

[Ladyhawk]

We can only get Kiwi in his harness one way- by doing it in a dim room where he can't see too well and quickly buckle that sucker on before he knows what's happening Being in low lighting seems to calm the beastie. Maybe give it a try with Kizzy? We also have the buckle-on feather tether, which IMO is easier to get on (and off!) a resistant bird than the aviator looks to be. Getting Kiwi to stick his head voluntarily into a harness then having to weave and adjust the rest around his body would be about the same odds as a million dollars falling from the sky.

Kizzy has had a couple of bad experiences in the dark. Right now, the dark is not her friend. I could see if I can desensitize her, but as of now she will take off if I try to take her into a darkened room.

With a flighted bird, it's really easy to tell what they will not tolerate. They simply leave.