"Disipline" for screaming - is this OK?

osnyder

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Sep 26, 2011
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Stitch the Blue Crown Conure
Hello to all.

As some of you know we've had Stitch home only about a week and a half. All things considered, things are going in a good direction. I ordered some training tools (a small table perch and clickers) but they have not arrived.

In the mean time, Stitchy will get ornery and start to scream whilst on his cage or his perch. It seems to be for different reasons, and sometimes it has a quick and easy solution. Other times it doesn't, and it's just to get attention or cause drama, and in this case it needs to be ignored, and he needs to be put in his cage.

The problem is that I cannot get him to step up without being mauled, so I need to towel him to move him bodily (I actually should say "tshirt" him, as that's what I use). So I very calmly and without force pick him up in the tshirt and return him to the cage, calmly and firmly say "no screaming Stitch" and walk away. Is this OK? I want to make sure I'm not psychically scarring him. He seems fine-- doesn't seem spazzed by the process. He bites at the cloth but I don't get the sense that he's terribly stressed by it (unlike Geordi, who acts like we're killing him if we have to towel him).

Advice? I plan to immediately start clicker training him ASAP, with step-up w/o biting me the primary goal. Is what I'm doing in the mean time ok?

Thank you!
 

roxynoodle

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Dec 1, 2011
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Well, if he doesn't seem to mind being "T shirted", I suppose it's fine. Most birds do mind though. Will he step up onto a hand held perch? That might be easier for both of you.

I guess you need to determine the reasons for the screaming. If it is fear, well, I think they should be allowed to do that. Of course I tell them, "It's alright. You're fine."

If it's "I'm so happy to be alive, I must tell the world!" I think that's fine, too, although I know how piercing BCCs are when they do that one. It used to hurt my ears, but I was glad she was happy.

If it's for drama, then the best thing to do is ignore him until he's quiet again.
 
OP
osnyder

osnyder

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I'm pretty sure that at certain times its for drama. But I agree with you, and I do try to intuit what he's looking for. Only when it seems totally dramarama do I feel it is important to go through this routine.

He's fearful of a hand-held perch, and get very upset and will fly off (and he's clipped right now, so it's not an elegant and controlled flight). Geordi is stick-strained, and so I did try it out with Stitch.

thanks RN.
 

MikeyTN

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Keep trying with the hand held perch with treats, he will come around!!! My birds are perch trained!!!
 

Enjru

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My opinion is that it is highly doubtful he truly "doesn't mind" being towelled by the T-shirt. If he is so upset by a hand-held perch, I really cannot imagine why it is so OK for him to get towelled.

I would be VERY wary that what you are interpreting to be him "not minding" the T shirt is not in fact what behavioralists call "response blocking" and what you are doing with the T shirt may very well be what behavioralists call "flooding".

Whereas "flooding" does indeed result in "response blocking" in the short term, and therefore seems to solve the problem, it causes many problems in the long-term, with the development of "learned helplessness". In humans, "learned helplessness" is also called "depression".

A parrot in the wild has only a few response pathways. It might scream, it might fly away, or it might bite. Your parrot's wings are clipped and so flight is not an effective response strategy for him. By towelling him with a T shirt, you are disabling its biting strategy. It is therefore left with the screaming strategy. If you block this screaming strategy, what do you think will likely happen in the long term? In captivity, parrots have developed a very endearing and new strategy (NOT!!) which is called feather-picking or feather-plucking. If your parrot doesn't come up with this very charming strategy, it could become a stunned parrot that doesn't react to ANYTHING. I think in Scott Echols' "Captive Foraging" DVD, there is a short sequence showing a "stunned parrot" with "learned helplessness" which just stands there and doesn't do anything even when you poke a perch at it. Very sad!

So, what are better alternatives to "flooding"?

I would urge you to consider Susan Friedman's proposed hierarchy of intervention strategies, reprinted here courtesy of Barbara Heidenreich's Good Bird magazine:

http://behaviorworks.org/files/articles/What's Wrong with this Picture.pdf

Notice that the way you walk away after placing your parrot back in his cage is "Negative Punishment", which is a Level 5 intervention. I would strongly suggest to you that your oarrot doesn't REALLY "not mind" getting towelled, in which case, the towelling by the T shirt would be a Level 6 intervention. I would strongly urge you to EXHAUST all the Level 1 to Level 4 strategies before utilizing Level 5 and Level 6 strategies.

I agree with the others that using positive reinforcement to get your parrot to step up is MUCH MORE preferable to towelling him with a T shirt, but even this positive reinforcement method is only a Level 3 strategy. Are you sure that you have exhausted ALL your Level 1 and Level 2 options (ie, modifying the antecedents)?

Hope this helps,
Enjru
 

427HISS

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I don't know if this will help you, and I've only had my cockatoo, Shelby, for a couple of weeks, so I'm absolutely no,..... expert.

For a cockatoo she's very quiet, but has her moments.

I've learned what noises she makes mean different things.

The one's I will pay attention to by talking tio her-

1- short burst squawking- means please pay attention to me !
2- long burst squawking- means if you don't pay attention, I'll scream !
3- short low pitch- I'm hungry ! (kinda cute)
4- short high pitch- She'll get low and point to where she wants to go, either she wants to be with me, go to her stand, or cage.

5- Screaming- is like a child that is throwing a temper-tantrum, so I make her have a "time out" in her cage.

After about 5 minutes, I will tell her "that's enough", and if she doesn't stop, I'll take back to her cage and shut the door. Most of the time she immediately stop. Then again about 5 minutes later, I'll tell her to "be a good girl, and I'll let you out". She already knows my "law" lol,....but at times, still challenges me. It's really not much of an issue now, as she knows what will happen.

The one I do not,... pay attention to-

1- Natural squawking at dawn & dusk- is a sound that's a long "calling" sound and I leave her to what is natural.
 

luvmytooo

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Dec 22, 2011
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I don't know if this will help you, and I've only had my cockatoo, Shelby, for a couple of weeks, so I'm absolutely no,..... expert.

For a cockatoo she's very quiet, but has her moments.

I've learned what noises she makes mean different things.

The one's I will pay attention to by talking tio her-

1- short burst squawking- means please pay attention to me !
2- long burst squawking- means if you don't pay attention, I'll scream !
3- short low pitch- I'm hungry ! (kinda cute)
4- short high pitch- She'll get low and point to where she wants to go, either she wants to be with me, go to her stand, or cage.

5- Screaming- is like a child that is throwing a temper-tantrum, so I make her have a "time out" in her cage.

After about 5 minutes, I will tell her "that's enough", and if she doesn't stop, I'll take back to her cage and shut the door. Most of the time she immediately stop. Then again about 5 minutes later, I'll tell her to "be a good girl, and I'll let you out". She already knows my "law" lol,....but at times, still challenges me. It's really not much of an issue now, as she knows what will happen.

The one I do not,... pay attention to-

1- Natural squawking at dawn & dusk- is a sound that's a long "calling" sound and I leave her to what is natural.

Sounds like Shelby has you trained right ! :jumping40 :25_coolgu
 

luvmytooo

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My wife AGREES !!! :p

I say,..."she just loves,ssssss me, and wants me to be proud of her !!! :D lol

Oh she loves you alright :p
 
OP
osnyder

osnyder

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Stitch the Blue Crown Conure
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I sort of decided last night to quit the towelling thing, as I think it's causing a rift.

I should clarify that I didn't think that he literally didn't mind it, as I stated, so much as it doesn't seem to make him panic. My sense it that it makes him angry though, which isn't a good thing in the long run.

It's frustrating not not be able to move him into his cage if necessary at this moment (if my husband is home he can do it without issue). It seems like some of the noise is posturing and competing with Geordi at times.
 

roxynoodle

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Dec 1, 2011
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What if you hold out one hand for him to step up onto and hold a treat in front of that hand with your other one so he has to step onto you to reach it? Then when he does, let him have the treat and say, "Good boy!"
 

luvmytooo

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I think not using the towel is a good idea , just because if your husband can move him without any hassle , then you using the towel , isnt going to make things any better between the two of you....just my opinion.
 
OP
osnyder

osnyder

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Hey Roxy. At the moment, I'm very reluctant to hold my hand in front of him. Last weekend I got a fairly serious bite my right index finger that has made me overly cautious. When I talk to him and touch him, I slowly approach him with my hand and wait to make sure he's not going to attack, and to acclimate him to my hands. I can then usually touch him on his neck and head, and stroke his back. The whole process has to be slow, or he'll bite with meaning. The problem is, that like most parrots, he also uses his beak and tongue to touch and feel, and so I have a startle reaction of my own that I'm working with and fighting so that I can allow him to feel/touch/taste me with his beak like he should.

I may try to acclimate him to the perch as suggested.

Enjru-- thank you for that article.

With time I have faith we'll be fine. I think that good positive training will really help us, I just have to get it together to start.
 
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osnyder

osnyder

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Stitch the Blue Crown Conure
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I think not using the towel is a good idea , just because if your husband can move him without any hassle , then you using the towel , isnt going to make things any better between the two of you....just my opinion.


Totally agree-- it's already happening. Sometimes we know the answer to our our own questions but need to get them out there to totally process.

thanks!
 

Safira

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I would think that when he starts screaming and you go to put him in his cage, he learns that's how to get your attention. So you defeat the purpose of ignoring him, by going to him to put him in his cage.. to ignore him. Does that make sense? When he screams and you want to put him away because of it, going to him to do that is reinforcing the screaming.

He screams to the point you want him in his cage.
You go put him away.
He's figured out you'll go to him by said above screaming.
 

roxynoodle

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Dec 1, 2011
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Yes, it can be hard to tell if he is just beaking or going to latch on. And they do have that little needle point on their ends of their beaks that goes in like a needle. Mine got my lip a few times getting too enthusiastic with a good night kiss, and it went right into my lip. BCCs seem to be the only parrot that has a beak like that.

Instead of your hand, try it with a perch. Hold the perch with the treat in front of it so he has to step on it to reach. If it works, maybe work on that with him a few minutes here and there throughout the day. They are extremely intelligent birds and I think he can learn to do this very easily. Just be patient as it may take him awhile to overcome any fear of the perch to get the food. I would praise him for each step towards it he takes and maybe give him a bit of a taste of the food. And slowly make him do more to get a taste if he doesn't get on it quickly.
 

lexx510

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Mar 13, 2011
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Pineapple Green Cheek Conure
My opinion is that it is highly doubtful he truly "doesn't mind" being towelled by the T-shirt. If he is so upset by a hand-held perch, I really cannot imagine why it is so OK for him to get towelled.

I would be VERY wary that what you are interpreting to be him "not minding" the T shirt is not in fact what behavioralists call "response blocking" and what you are doing with the T shirt may very well be what behavioralists call "flooding".

Whereas "flooding" does indeed result in "response blocking" in the short term, and therefore seems to solve the problem, it causes many problems in the long-term, with the development of "learned helplessness". In humans, "learned helplessness" is also called "depression".

A parrot in the wild has only a few response pathways. It might scream, it might fly away, or it might bite. Your parrot's wings are clipped and so flight is not an effective response strategy for him. By towelling him with a T shirt, you are disabling its biting strategy. It is therefore left with the screaming strategy. If you block this screaming strategy, what do you think will likely happen in the long term? In captivity, parrots have developed a very endearing and new strategy (NOT!!) which is called feather-picking or feather-plucking. If your parrot doesn't come up with this very charming strategy, it could become a stunned parrot that doesn't react to ANYTHING. I think in Scott Echols' "Captive Foraging" DVD, there is a short sequence showing a "stunned parrot" with "learned helplessness" which just stands there and doesn't do anything even when you poke a perch at it. Very sad!

So, what are better alternatives to "flooding"?

I would urge you to consider Susan Friedman's proposed hierarchy of intervention strategies, reprinted here courtesy of Barbara Heidenreich's Good Bird magazine:

http://behaviorworks.org/files/articles/What's Wrong with this Picture.pdf

Notice that the way you walk away after placing your parrot back in his cage is "Negative Punishment", which is a Level 5 intervention. I would strongly suggest to you that your oarrot doesn't REALLY "not mind" getting towelled, in which case, the towelling by the T shirt would be a Level 6 intervention. I would strongly urge you to EXHAUST all the Level 1 to Level 4 strategies before utilizing Level 5 and Level 6 strategies.

I agree with the others that using positive reinforcement to get your parrot to step up is MUCH MORE preferable to towelling him with a T shirt, but even this positive reinforcement method is only a Level 3 strategy. Are you sure that you have exhausted ALL your Level 1 and Level 2 options (ie, modifying the antecedents)?

Hope this helps,
Enjru

Thank you for this post. Every parrot owner should read this = )
 
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