New bird problems (pionus)

Hello, I thought I'd make a thread on this website to get a second opinion on something. I'm a new bird owner, so I'm going to try to be as thorough as possible.

So about a week ago I brought a Maximillian Pionus into my home. She was born around early July, and was hand raised by an experience breeder. She was described as being very sweet and laid back, and receptive to people, having never even attempted to bite or do anything of the sort.

Based on this particular section of the forum, you can probably guess where this is going. The first two days she seemed scared in my presence, but I kind of expected that. She was doing a lot of that pionus "wheezing" thing, which I kind of expected as well. She doesn't do that anymore, but now is either coming off as very aggressive or scared, I can't tell which. At first whenever I walked by her cage, she would make noise / show other signs of anxiety. As the next two days passed, she [mostly] stopped doing this. I did mention this to the breeder, who said I should really just try to get her out of the cage (which she REFUSED to do by the way) and sit with her for a bit each day, etc. The first day I tried very carefully trying to see if she would come out, but she generally just showed all the signs of fear (or aggression?) such as attempted biting (well she got me once), cawing, and wing fluttering.

The next day I held out a ladder in her cage, and she climbed onto that, and when I removed it, she immediately jumped to the ground and cornered herself, and I spent probably close to 30 minutes just trying to get her back in the cage. I felt pretty bad about this incident in particular. Even so, since my first attempts to get her out of the cage, she is now even more agitated (mostly shown through noise making) when I as much as look at her.

Now, so here is my question. My initial plan, which I decided upon shortly after seeing her.. condition, was to just leave her be (physically) until she felt okay to come out (which may have taken weeks). The breeder however was saying that you really should get her out of the cage as soon as you can, so she doesn't get too used to her ways. So while I am still in contact with the breeder, I was wondering if anyone else had any opinions in the matter. I've done a ton of research, but I feel like results are sometimes a bit conflicting. Let me know if you have any advice!

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Thank you for reading the above, here's some supplemental (but not necessary) information:

-Since she moved in, the only thing she will eat are the pellets. She used to eat lots of things with the breeder, but everything I try (even those she used to like) she ignores. I've also tried showing her that they were okay to eat, but its made no different thus far.

-Last night and the night before (aka the nights of the two days I tried to get her out of the cage), she stayed up very late (past midnight), and woke up sometime between 8:00 and 9:30 the next day. She looks tired now, and I'm going to keep her cage covered for a bit to try to force a nap, even though I still hear her climbing around. I know a lack of sleep can cause some agitation, but I feel like there's more to this problem.

-Environmentally speaking, it's very relaxing (I would say). She has a big cage against a wall, and a handful of toys. I make sure she has light during the day, and none - to very little at night. Noise level is also very low at all times, but not absent. If I'm home, unless I've gone to bed, I'm in the same room as her. When she is not focused on being mad/afraid of me, she seems very active in her cage (climbing, playing, etc). As soon as I walk by (or even look at her sometimes), she drops what she's doing at me, stares back and sometimes makes noise. I also talk to her a lot in attempt to help her get used to me.

-She has an unrelated vet appointment on friday, so I'll need to get her out somehow.

I guess that's it for now, I gotta go, so hopefully there aren't too many typos or anything haha. Thanks again for reading this far.

Sometimes even tame birds don't want to come out of their cages, and while I see the breeder's point, I disagree that you should force the issue with a bird that is clearly afraid of you. Will she take millet? It is NOT a healthy snack, but I have never seen any bird refuse it, even when they refused all else. My first suggestion would be to get some. Put a comfy chair next to the cage, open the door, and put the millet a few inches outside the door. Not so far that she has to step out, just far enough that she has to reach out. Sit down with a book or computer and do not move for an hour. Ignore her or talk to her, but do not look at her. If she is still in the cage at the end, close it, leave, and try again in a few hours. If you don't have the time to do it for an hour that is ok but try to make it at least an hour. You want her to have time to relax and start thinking, and most of all you want to undo all the "chasing" you have done when trying to get her in and out of her cage at the urging of the breeder. As she gets more confident around you, you can move the millet farther away from the cage onto a table or something, or even eventually try holding it. If the bird is handraised and has the traits the breeder says, then she should calm down within a few weeks and be friendly. If not, you will have to lay the foundation your breeder told you they already did all this work. Best of luck! Try not to be discouraged. A tame bird is worth the effort and time.

I respectfully disagree where it comes to phobic birds. Phobic birds generally will not come out of their cage on their own... and then they become cage bound which only compounds the problem.

And since pionus and amazon behaviors are very similar, I do agree with the breeder on this one. These guys generally don't turn into phobic pluckers. The danger with these guys is that they turn into perch potatoes.

What I did with my phobic and very, very (unhandlea-ble!) aggressive Red Lored Amazon was to towel her, and then walk around the house with her in the towel.

Take the bird into another room, and sit with it on your lap. If the bird is calm. offer some warm (Not too hot! We don't want burned crops) oatmeal on a spoon. See if that does the trick.

The more you give in to a phobia, the more the phobia grows.
The sooner you deal with it, the better it gets.

And the "aggression" thing is probably just "fear biting." When the bird is no longer fearful of you, and trusts you, it will no longer attempt to bite.

This is the setting perameters stage.

Perhaps this link may be of help???


Working with Fearful Parrots: A Study in Videos | Learning Parrots




And this link, which kind of describes how I worked with an insecure and scared bird. And am still working with.

http://www.parrotforums.com/conures/36663-long-overdue-intro-jayde-red-throated-conure.html

The Pionus was hand raised and is 3 months old??

I fully side with Birdman666 on this one. My Zon is phobic and every time I get him out of his cage he yells and jumps, but now he goes on to the hand and does want out, just has to yell about it to get his courage up.

Thank you for all the helpful advice. While the thread is still young, and there may be some more replies, I guess I'll try and do some sort of combination of them.

I normally am at my desk, which is about 10 feet away (and easily within view) from her cage, but I'll relocate to a closer table when I get the chance. I'll see if I can get her out in a towel and bring her somewhere else as well. I don't have any pure millet, but I have these "parrot treats" that are made up of millet and some other seeds that are probably still likable to give her as a reward. I'll report back later on if I was able to get her out.

Echo said:

The Pionus was hand raised and is 3 months old??

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Yes. I don't know her exact birthday though, but the breeder let her and her siblings go when she felt they were ready.

You may try to offer hand feeding. That is a young baby and it would help you bond.

It's unlikely that she would be "phobic" being such a baby! I own 2 Pionus, one of them just weaned when I brought her home (8 years ago). At this young age, they still do they baby begging sounds at times and are, like most babies, very easy going. The wheezing happens when they are scared. Something is weird here. The behavior is not of a well socialized baby.....

Echo said:

It's unlikely that she would be "phobic" being such a baby! I own 2 Pionus, one of them just weaned when I brought her home (8 years ago). At this young age, they still do they baby begging sounds at times and are, like most babies, very easy going. The wheezing happens when they are scared. Something is weird here. The behavior is not of a well socialized baby.....

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She was hand weaned and raised with her three siblings specifically. The breeder also raises a few other types of birds, so there were other birds in her general environment. She was handled daily by the breeder and her husband. According to the breeder, in all her years of doing this, she has never had a bird turn out like this one. To reiterate, she described [my] bird as being very sweet and playful, having never even attempted to bite anyone. She had also had a vet come recently to check all the birds, and she was healthy with no problems. I have to take her to the vet anyways, since my landlord is requiring some specific form to be filled out by a vet, so I can have her re-checked.

Anyways, I did manage to get her out of the cage (in a towel). I brought her into the other room and sat with her. She just squirmed the whole time and kept biting the towel (and trying to bite my fingers). She eventually escaped after about 5 minutes and I sat with her on the floor for another ten or so, before having to get her back in her cage. She's now just sitting on her usual spot, squawking a bit every minute or so, but I know she'll stop that in a bit. Just to add on, she wouldn't eat the parrot treats either (millet is the 4th ingredient listed, coming after some nuts and things).


edit: forgot to mention that, while this may be obvious, she was eating on her own well before I got her. It's possible she's a tiny bit older than three months, but definitely less than 4. I can ask the breeder for an exact date, but I don't think there's enough of a difference..?

Birdman, I am totally ok with being disagreed with all my experience of this sort comes from budgies, cockatiels, and Quakers. This is a method that worked for me, but I am glad someone with differing experience also weighed in

What I did with mine, and what I would recommend is to focus on the eating. She's not eating well and for a baby trying to adjust to a new home being hungry will add to the stress. I noticed that babies that did well in my home (I breed conures)sometimes would act differently in their new home, mostly when the owner was new to the bird world. The difference was that the new owner was a bit nervous or excited to want to do everything right and that nervousness/excitement was relaying to the baby as fear. For some babies, going from a place full of birds to a birdless one can also be very scary.

I would keep the baby is a small cage rather than large at the beginning. It will be easier for her to come out on her own and she will usually want to come out. It's also easier to towel her in a small cage so less stressful for both of you (if you need her out to go to the vet)!!

Next I would offer "comfort food". She needs to eat first and foremost. I would offer warm mashed sweet potato (my Pionus love that), with cooked mashed/ground veggies and a scrambled egg, mixed all together and fed from a spoon. You want it warm and mushy. Keep her in the cage and offer it with the spoon. If she takes it, feed her a few spoonfuls and leave the rest in the cage so she can feed herself more if she wants. I would do that morning and night.

I wouldn't force her out, but if she takes the food from the spoon, little by little you can lure her out a bit until she sits on the door of the cage. Again having a small cage helps with that trick.

Hopefully she enjoys the food and looks forward to eat and will want to come out with you for it. Try it.

I'll give it a shot next, I'll get more groceries tomorrow. I've given her sweet potatoes on four different occasions, but she's never wanted it (or anything for that matter). The breeder did say it was one of her favorites though so I don't know.

I have to ask...Did you meet this bird before you brought it home? A young Pionus is usually as sweet as a teddy bear so something definitely isn't right here, in my honest opinion. Hope everything turns out better for the both of you.

thebirdnerd said:

I have to ask...Did you meet this bird before you brought it home? A young Pionus is usually as sweet as a teddy bear so something definitely isn't right here, in my honest opinion. Hope everything turns out better for the both of you.

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Unfortunately no, as she was raised a plane ride away. I was regularly contacting the breeder to check up on her, and saw pictures and all that, but was thus never able to visit.

Everyone I've asked so far about the issue seems at a loss, as nothing seems to add up. I'll keep at it of course, I really hope it works out...

Yes sometimes it is normal for a new bird to be scared, even a baby! BUT I have to say that the breeder is telling you some lies. IF your feeding stuffs that the breeder is feeding (the bird supposedly been eating at the breeder's place), they generally will accept them since he is eating his pellets. But you do need to get him out of his cage like Birdman says and sit with him on the floor if you must and observe. Try to earn his trust and you need to work with him daily several times a day. When I work with a bird like that I do it 4 times or more per day at 25+ minutes each time. At the beginning just to sit him with you for a bit until he's more calm then start working with step up commands. Use a perch if you must! Have two available and have him step up over and over from one perch to the other. I usually have the bird trained to step up good for me within a couple of days. I don't push on the other parts of the training as much at the beginning cause the main thing is step up and bonding to begin with. Then you can work on the other parts later on.

I see. So the general consensus is that it's still worth getting her out of the cage, even if she just panics the whole time? The only reason I'm hesitant is just that for the aftermath of each of these events she seems even more distant and angry. I guess that would supposedly stop, but still.

When you first do it try to keep her out as long as possible, not just a out and back in type of deal. You need to take your time! Just plan it on a day when you have nothing to do, preferably as soon as possible, don't wait too long to do this! They will act like that and it shows you really haven't work much with her at all for her to keep acting up.

null said:

I see. So the general consensus is that it's still worth getting her out of the cage, even if she just panics the whole time? The only reason I'm hesitant is just that for the aftermath of each of these events she seems even more distant and angry. I guess that would supposedly stop, but still.

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I'm against that idea. Forcing a bird to endure something over and over again is known as flooding. Yes, it can and does work, but may cause birds that bite without warning or birds who simply "give up". They learn that regardless of the outcome, they have no choice.


An alternative training method is with the use of clicker training aka positive reinforcement training or applied behavior analysis.


I often recommend these people for help in regards to training.

Barbara Heidenreich / Blog
Lara Joseph / Blog
Susan Friedman
Karen Pryor & Melinda Johnson


Other websites I've found helpful include these places

Living With Parrots Cage Free
Best in Flock - Parrot Blog | Updates and Musings About Life with Parrots
Learning Parrots | Empowering the learners in our households
Natural Encounters, Inc.
Avian Ambassadors - Flights of Education
Living with Flighted parrots

MonicaMc said:

null said:

I see. So the general consensus is that it's still worth getting her out of the cage, even if she just panics the whole time? The only reason I'm hesitant is just that for the aftermath of each of these events she seems even more distant and angry. I guess that would supposedly stop, but still.

Click to expand...

I'm against that idea. Forcing a bird to endure something over and over again is known as flooding. Yes, it can and does work, but may cause birds that bite without warning or birds who simply "give up". They learn that regardless of the outcome, they have no choice.


An alternative training method is with the use of clicker training aka positive reinforcement training or applied behavior analysis.


I often recommend these people for help in regards to training.

Barbara Heidenreich / Blog
Lara Joseph / Blog
Susan Friedman
Karen Pryor & Melinda Johnson


Other websites I've found helpful include these places

Living With Parrots Cage Free
Best in Flock - Parrot Blog | Updates and Musings About Life with Parrots
Learning Parrots | Empowering the learners in our households
Natural Encounters, Inc.
Avian Ambassadors - Flights of Education
Living with Flighted parrots

Click to expand...

I agree with Monica, especially because we are talking about a 3 months old baby....with no known past behavioral problem. This is a newly weaned baby which I believe should be handled in a gentler manner.