Male African Grey not able to fly

leninmon · Jan 24, 2019

One of my pair of CAG is not able to fly well, especially the male bird. He tried flying from a higher perch or top of the cage which caused his left leg knee ligaments injured and now he limps as well as not able to fly.
I moved them to a smaller cage to prevent any further injury due to height and giving them a high protein and calcium diet for recovery. As for parrots its not possible to fasten their injured legs or use any external clips, the vet didn't have much to do there. I checked their wings and the flight feathers are kind of broken and not growing back. They have been struggling with the flight feathers for 1 year(ever since I acquired them). My worries are
1)Would they even recover from the injured ligament without any guiding plasters as we would use on broken bones or ligaments.
2)Do I have to pluck all their flight feathers off for them to regrow normally all at ones for them to fly normally.
3)If they don't regrow their feathers back and recover properly from the injured ligament ever(extremes) would the male ever be able to mount on the female for mating? (CAG's mate mounting on the female vertically and they may need their wings for balancing and healthy legs for balancing on the females back).

I asked this query to other local breeders and they shared experiences on other birds like conures with impairments producing well as normal birds. But conures mate from the side and they don't need that much balance like the grey parrots. What do you think ?

LordTriggs · Jan 24, 2019

first question. Is the vet you saw a Certified Avian Vet? Or are they an 'Exotics' vet who will see birds? If the latter then you need a new vet who is certified.

1)The vet should have wrapped the leg in some form of splint to take pressure off the ligaments and also to help keep the leg aligned whilst healing (I am assuming an X-ray was done to rule out a broken bone)

2) do not pluck their feathers, it can damage the follicle and could cause the grey to start plucking. I would book him in for a fecal gram stain and a full run of bloodwork to see why he's not growing new feathers as a year is a long time without a moult. It could be something as simple as diet that is making them unable to grow feathers or it can be something far more sinister.

3) I would not look at breeding them until you get exams done on both of them to check health, the last thing you want is to have a pair mating who possibly are carriers of diseases to have young and infect them.

Seeing your other thread about no eggs being laid I would definitely get both of them in for a full spectrum blood panel to make sure that everything going on in these 2 is going as should be

ChristaNL · Jan 24, 2019

Certified Avian Vet. NOW!

stop self-doctoring and get him some real help!

You want breeding birds- well if he cannot get on the female..there will never be succesfull matings...
so if not for the wellbeing of the bird, do it for your own wallet!

(and no- you do not pluck flightfeathers *ever*: those are embedded to the tissues that wraps around the bones so it is torture for them! There is also a chance you damage the folicles that way and the bird will *never* be able to grow a normal feather ever again. So if something like that is ever necessery -> Certiefied Avian Vet!! do not do this at home. It is like ripping out fingernails for humans.)

A high protein diet will probably cause kidney-damage, so CAV for that as well!

leninmon · Jan 24, 2019

There are no certified avian vets here where we live. The only vets are Exotic avian vets but what he mentioned is what I have read as well. For parrots especially untamed ones, wrapping their legs with some kind of tape is not practical as they will tear those apart in a mater of minutes. But for broken bones where they need internal pins, the vet would have tried it. But my bird has a tendon injury where the knees move so that was not a practical solution. For pets they would have asked to keep on collar cuffs until the legs heal inorder to keep their beaks away from their bandage or what ever we call it.
I am not sure if the feathers are not growing back or if its damaging frequently. They are wild caught so if the poachers caught them the wrong way maybe they lost the follicles but I am not sure about that part either. I didn't consult a vet for the feather issue until now. But I should have done that along with the leg consultation. my bad.
Diet I am feeding them are high in protein and calcium for helping them recover and it should not be an issue as I have other healthy flying pairs on the same diet.
I was told molting would happen randomly on feathers and not all at once so if there are younger damaged feathers on the bird they will stay there until the feathers are old and molt on its own. Maybe it will take a long time. The easy way is to remove all the damaged flight feathers and they all grow synchronously. But I didn't do that coz I know it would be extreamly painful for the bird which is already going through a lot. I am not keeping them in my breeding cage now. The reason why I asked about their capability to breed with a weaker leg and non flight wings are should I expect them to breed ever again if they stay without flight feathers(due to maybe damaged follicles and a wrongly cured legs without wraps on the leg tendons).
Do any one breed CAG here who have pairs that don't fly or with a weaker leg?

One of my friend have a pair where the male grey have a paralyzed front finger(wont fold) They breed well. I also get suggestions on keeping them in smaller cages for breeding once they heal if they wont fly.
Please give me your inputs on those as well

SilverSage · Jan 24, 2019

I have to disagree with my friends here...

-an external splint is not always necessary or possible depending on the bird or the injury, it was wise to move them to a smaller cage.

-a high protein diet is normal for breeding season and IMPORTANT for raising young, but don’t breed this pair this year; the male needs time to recover. You should put them back on a normal non breeding diet in the mean time.

-Pulling the feathers is never fun but sometimes it is necessary for the SAFETY of a bird. I have had to do it multiple times. It’s horrible and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. How many of the feathers are broken?

It’s so sad to hear of wild caught parrots. What part of the world do you live in? The World Parrot Trust has done so much damage to the plight of the African Grey with their stupid and horrible push to list them as a CITES species and thus destroy the operations of so many legal breeders

How long have your birds been in captivity? Can you share pictures with us?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ChristaNL · Jan 24, 2019

Silver: you breed the small stuff, I do not think you should encourage this not-so-experienced person to start pulling his birds apart...

SilverSage · Jan 24, 2019

With respect, I did not encourage. I asked how many feathers were missing. I have raised things as large as Macaws, and I live with a Grey. I also asked what part of the world he is in because he may be on the frontier of captive breeding in his country; the front lines against poaching, and in an area where self doctoring may be better than the so-called vet care that is available. I’m trying to get a sense of his needs and options. I said in my post that pulling flights is horrible and should be avoided but sometimes it is better for the bird. If his flight is truly so impaired that he is injuring himself and the cause is truly missing feathers? He could crack his keel and die a slow painful death.

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leninmon · Jan 24, 2019

Both wings flight feathers are mostly broken unevenly so they cant even glide. If they try to, they will crash and may tamper their keel bone. I would feed them a high protein diet and calcium as well as the vet suggested. They need better nutrition to heal faster than a maintenance diet. I would not attempt breeding them until they are fine perfectly. But I pray they heal faster. If they don't heal perfectly and still have a limp then... thats the part I am concerned about. Greys are hardy birds and will and always did well with disease resistance and healing capabilities. But I never had one with a ligament fracture/injury before. The birds are otherwise fine. He still plays the batman from over the small cage roof irrespective of his leg condition.

leninmon · Jan 24, 2019

I am from India(South India). Here also wild imports are not legal and the stock we have has been around for a while. But what ever birds got in stays in. There are people who advocate for closed ring birds for breeding as well here. But there are fewer of those available around. Vets are rarer than gems in here and most of them are not at all aware of the avian physiology. But there are a few reputed vets and experienced breeders who self medicate their birds with their expertise in medicine. The aviculture here cant even be compared to the west standards but still there are many breeders who do this as a hobby.

Laurasea · Jan 24, 2019

I found an article that says glue traps are used to catch , illegaly from Africa. Here is a picture of a glue traps victum notice it breaks all the feathers.

laurasea-albums-penny-picture21061-tmg-article-tall.jpg

Lukuru Foundation TL2 Project
“In some countries, a lot of the birds used for breeding were trapped in the wild, so the relationship between captive breeding and trapping in the wild is complex,” Martin said. “So they’re bringing in the wild-caught birds, and they’re breeding from them until they can no longer breed, and then they’re just buying more wild-caught birds. So even though people think they’re doing the right thing by buying the captive-bred birds, they’re inadvertently still supporting this demand for wild birds.”

Linimon, obviously you didn't go and take these parrots from the wild. And as you said it is not illegal in your country to take in wild caught parrots. But it is illegal in Africa to take them from the wild I just wanted to share with you the wider picture. Your male parrot has recently gone through an enormous traumatic experience and a damagingly one. Sometimes the legs of the illegally caught in Africa parrots are tied to the cage.

So please give him time to heal, before trying to breed. I would not pluck his festhetrs. When his body has recovered the energy it will replace the featheres. To force the issue could plunge him into illness as he has to expend the energy to replace those huge flight featheres. He just needs time.

And I would encourage you to look at how these parrots are caught and handled and how many die before they reach your country. And decide if that's something you want to be part of.

Despite all the above, I do welcome you to our community. You have the parrots now and we all want the best for them. I hope others have good advice about the leg.

leninmon · Jan 24, 2019

Laurasea said:
I found an article that says glue traps are used to catch , illegaly from Africa. Here is a picture of a glue traps victum notice it breaks all the feathers.

Lukuru Foundation TL2 Project
“In some countries, a lot of the birds used for breeding were trapped in the wild, so the relationship between captive breeding and trapping in the wild is complex,” Martin said. “So they’re bringing in the wild-caught birds, and they’re breeding from them until they can no longer breed, and then they’re just buying more wild-caught birds. So even though people think they’re doing the right thing by buying the captive-bred birds, they’re inadvertently still supporting this demand for wild birds.”

Linimon, obviously you didn't go and take these parrots from the wild. And as you said it is not illegal in your country to take in wild caught parrots. But it is illegal in Africa to take them from the wild I just wanted to share with you the wider picture. Your male parrot has recently gone through an enormous traumatic experience and a damagingly one. Sometimes the legs of the illegally caught in Africa parrots are tied to the cage.

So please give him time to heal, before trying to breed. I would not pluck his festhetrs. When his body has recovered the energy it will replace the featheres. To force the issue could plunge him into illness as he has to expend the energy to replace those huge flight featheres. He just needs time.

And I would encourage you to look at how these parrots are caught and handled and how many die before they reach your country. And decide if that's something you want to be part of.

Despite all the above, I do welcome you to our community. You have the parrots now and we all want the best for them. I hope others have good advice about the leg.

Infact its not legal to take capture wild birds or import them. Most of them were smuggled some time back and officials here are always against it but poachers and smugglers have their ways to get around everywhere even there. The male bird didn't hurt his legs in by them its with me. He have no flight feathers to fly so when he tried to fly in my larger cage, he crashed down and caused his knee ligaments to slip or tear to be precise. Now his legs are moving slightly sideways from the knee. But that cant be taped permanently for healing. What would be my options
should I leave him alone like this and he will cure by himself
Is there any parrot practical way to get their legs plastered properly there in your country or does anyone have any tips for me

Tami2 · Jan 24, 2019

Oh my goodness Laurasea, that image breaks my heart. :smile016:
I can’t watch the poaching and plight of the wild greys without crying.

Good luck Leninmom, I hope everything works out well for your male grey. :heart:

Laurasea · Jan 24, 2019

It's my understanding it is illegal..??
I just don't know how to help leg though, sorry I wish I did
United Nations: Ban on Trade in African Grey Parrots
(Oct. 4, 2016) The United Nations has effectively banned trade in the African grey parrot by placing it on a priority list of endangered species under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. The decision came after a two-week meeting on the Convention in Johannesburg, South Africa. (Tanisha Heiberg, Global Trade in Wild African Grey Parrot Banned by United Nations, SYDNEY MORNING HERALD (Oct. 2, 2016t); Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) (Mar. 3, 1973, as amended through Apr. 30, 1983), CITES website (click on link for pdf of the text).)

Since 1981, the grey parrot has been included in Appendix II to the Convention (Heiberg, supra), which lists “species that are not necessarily now threatened with extinction but that may become so unless trade is closely controlled.” (The CITES Appendices, CITES website (last visited Oct. 3, 2016).) Following the Johannesburg meeting, the species is now included on Appendix I, which has “species that are the most endangered among CITES-listed animals and plants … . They are threatened with extinction and CITES prohibits international trade in specimens of these species except when the purpose of the import is not commercial.” (Id.) The proposal to more strongly protect the bird was supported by Angola, Chad, the European Union, Gabon, Guinea, Nigeria, Senegal, Togo, and the United States. (The Parrot in the Room, Wildlife Conservation Society website (Sept. 26, 2016).)

Background

The African grey parrot is highly sought after because it can imitate human speech. Although the parrots were once widespread in central and western Africa, trade in the species for the pet industry, plus the loss of their natural habitat due to deforestation, have made their numbers decline. (Heiberg, supra.) As of this year, the grey parrot has been eliminated from most of west Africa, and it is now found only in central Africa. (African Grey Parrot: Species in Decline, CORNELL CAST (Sept. 26, 2016).)

According to Dan Ashe of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, “[d]uring the past 25 years, more than 1.5 million wild African Greys have been taken from their native habitats, making them one of the most traded of all CITES-listed parrots.” (Heiberg, supra.) Susan Lieberman, Vice President of the Wildlife Conservation Society, said of the grey parrot, “nclusion in Appendix I is in the best interests of the conservation of the species as it faces both habitat loss and rampant illegal and unsustainable trade for the international pet trade.” (Id.)

The grey parrot is not the only species newly listed as not to be traded. The pangolin, the most poached mammal in the world, was added to Appendix I a week earlier. (Indonesia: Earth Wire – Global Trade in Wild African Grey Parrot Banned, U.N. Meeting Rules, ANTARA ONLINE (Oct. 3, 2016), Open Source Enterprise online subscription database, ID No. SER2016100338748177.)

Laurasea · Jan 24, 2019

As added thought.
Ligaments take a notoriously long time to heal. They just don't receive a high blood supple and are in constant use. The best bet is to restrict the size of the cage especially hight, you still have a long one, and give it time. I would say this takes a year to heal, as even casted pet parrots take nearly that long to heal. I still strongly urge to not pull the flight feathers. Risk of infection, risk of permanent damage to follicle.

Laurasea · Jan 24, 2019

Double post, wouldn't let me delete..

EllenD · Jan 24, 2019

This is quite the mess you have...I would have commented differently in your other thread about "why my CAG breeding-pairs have been mating for 40 days but not yet producing fertile eggs" had I known that your birds are not physically healthy AT ALL...While I and others have already told you that with CAG's, Cockatoos, etc. it is typical for a newly bonded-pair of birds to mate for up to a year or two BEFORE you're going to get any fertile eggs, and even longer for viable fertile eggs, and you didn't seem to like that answer but it's just how it is, we also told you that if your birds are not in good physical and psychological health they are likely not going to produce viable offspring...Obviously there are several reasons why your birds are not producing fertile eggs, the main one is still that they've only been mating for about 40 days and it can take well over a year for a mating pair of CAG's to produce viable offspring...But you've got a world of other issues that need to be resolved medically before your birds are ever going produce fertile eggs.

To answer your question in the other thread, NO, they have not "deemed their environment good for breeding offspring", because they themselves are in no physical shape to breed or RAISE offspring. How is a bird that can't even stand or walk or forage for food going to care for chicks? These are wild CAG's that were poached, not tame birds, so they think like wild parrots. And as such, if they are injured or sick, they are not going to produce viable offspring.

Above you just stated that you "wouldn't breed them until they were better", but in your other thread you are frustrated that they are mating every day for the last 40 days but not producing fertile eggs...So I'm confused here about your goals. The bottom-line is that you cannot force them breed successfully, and forgetting that you've got a long while to wait before they are every going to produce offspring in the first place, as long as they are injured/sick, not able to walk or stand properly, not able to fly, in any physical pain, etc., there's no way they are going to produce viable offspring no matter how long they are together. I mentioned to you that they need to be happy as well as healthy, they need to have jobs to do, they are wild birds that would normally be spending 8-10 hours every single day flying and foraging for their food, and this is their "job"...Now they are suddenly locked inside of a cage with nothing to do, they have a bowl of nutrient-dense food right next to them at all times, and they are bored to tears. Combine their tremendous boredom with being poached from their natural environment and thrown together with another bird, and now some of them are injured, can't fly, can't stand or walk, etc., and this is NOT any type of environment they are going to "deem appropriate for breeding offspring"...So there are a lot of answers to your question as to why they are not producing any fertile eggs after only 40 days of mating...As I stated in your other pose, mating out of sheer-boredom is never productive. And if they actually cannot physically mate in a productive way, then it's definitely not going to work...

I think you need to take a step back from what you've been doing here and reassess your entire situation, environment, practices, etc. The fact that you don't have access to any proper Avian Vets to help them medically is just another red-flag...

leninmon · Jan 25, 2019

EllenD said:
This is quite the mess you have...I would have commented differently in your other thread about "why my CAG breeding-pairs have been mating for 40 days but not yet producing fertile eggs" had I known that your birds are not physically healthy AT ALL...While I and others have already told you that with CAG's, Cockatoos, etc. it is typical for a newly bonded-pair of birds to mate for up to a year or two BEFORE you're going to get any fertile eggs, and even longer for viable fertile eggs, and you didn't seem to like that answer but it's just how it is, we also told you that if your birds are not in good physical and psychological health they are likely not going to produce viable offspring...Obviously there are several reasons why your birds are not producing fertile eggs, the main one is still that they've only been mating for about 40 days and it can take well over a year for a mating pair of CAG's to produce viable offspring...But you've got a world of other issues that need to be resolved medically before your birds are ever going produce fertile eggs.

To answer your question in the other thread, NO, they have not "deemed their environment good for breeding offspring", because they themselves are in no physical shape to breed or RAISE offspring. How is a bird that can't even stand or walk or forage for food going to care for chicks? These are wild CAG's that were poached, not tame birds, so they think like wild parrots. And as such, if they are injured or sick, they are not going to produce viable offspring.

Above you just stated that you "wouldn't breed them until they were better", but in your other thread you are frustrated that they are mating every day for the last 40 days but not producing fertile eggs...So I'm confused here about your goals. The bottom-line is that you cannot force them breed successfully, and forgetting that you've got a long while to wait before they are every going to produce offspring in the first place, as long as they are injured/sick, not able to walk or stand properly, not able to fly, in any physical pain, etc., there's no way they are going to produce viable offspring no matter how long they are together. I mentioned to you that they need to be happy as well as healthy, they need to have jobs to do, they are wild birds that would normally be spending 8-10 hours every single day flying and foraging for their food, and this is their "job"...Now they are suddenly locked inside of a cage with nothing to do, they have a bowl of nutrient-dense food right next to them at all times, and they are bored to tears. Combine their tremendous boredom with being poached from their natural environment and thrown together with another bird, and now some of them are injured, can't fly, can't stand or walk, etc., and this is NOT any type of environment they are going to "deem appropriate for breeding offspring"...So there are a lot of answers to your question as to why they are not producing any fertile eggs after only 40 days of mating...As I stated in your other pose, mating out of sheer-boredom is never productive. And if they actually cannot physically mate in a productive way, then it's definitely not going to work...

I think you need to take a step back from what you've been doing here and reassess your entire situation, environment, practices, etc. The fact that you don't have access to any proper Avian Vets to help them medically is just another red-flag...

oh boy you are messing two different scenarios with two different pairs. By the way I have multiple pairs of CAG's and This pair is hurt and this post is dedicated to that. The other thread regarding the mating pairs are well & healthy. They are given flight cages and never clipped. So the birds are able to fly well and those flight muscles are as exercised as they should be I position perches diagonally from as low as 2ft from ground to 8 feet from ground with a distance of 10ft between horizontally. So they will need plenty of effort to flap their wings to reach the top perches and the nest boxes.
Also I am not here to plead for help on any threads. I do my homework and go to vets when ever possible and necessary. Then I post threads to get an idea on what others have to say and maybe it will help others reading the thread.

Please don't consider everyone posting a question in this forum as amateurs. And please don't mess up different thread subjects to make a noodle out of it.

But thanks I did understand your point and I accept your perspective on this. I wouldn't mind if someone is not considering what I am thinking is right as long as they are not speculating I didn't like their comments.

Just for the record this pair is hurt and is not going to the larger breeding cage until they dont grow their wings and confidence to fly.
I also have Grey parrot as pet but for him the environments I provide are different from my breeding stock.

Male African Grey not able to fly

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African greys mating but no eggs

Question about nest box

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