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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2015, 01:18 PM
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Re: Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

Quote: Originally Posted by Hawk View Post

I would have thought that too, I still can't work it out and has me puzzled.
But then there are those Breeders tend to do strange things to get a particular bird...I guess anything is possible.
I'll be interested to see this bird. Perosnally, I would put my money on they got an unusual mutation of either a senegal or conure (that somewhat resembles what a hybrid 'might' look like) and are selling it as such. Though, I won't completely discredit the idea either. Stranger things have happened! Especially with the kind of things they are doing with genetics these days. I think ethics (rightly so) is the only thing keeping us from seeing all kinds of strange animal combinations.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2015, 04:13 PM
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Re: Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

Quote: Originally Posted by Betrisher View Post
The DEFINITION of a species is 'a group of animals capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring' although that has become quite muddied now since gene mapping became possible.
Very eloquently put! And how true. The true definition of a species is so unknown that there are multiple concepts of what make a species, all of which break down in their own way. The above is the biological species concept and is based on reproductive isolation. Problem being that intergeneric hybridization [i.e. Ara x Aratinga] are quite possible, let alone more closely related interspecific (Ara x Ara). Lions and tigers being a prime example of the latter.

This is where genetics is coming in handy, and maybe not so much muddy the water as to clear it up. The phylogenetic species concept (often molecularly derived, for simplicity sake, essentially how genetically different are two species) is probably the most clear cut definition we have, but even that has serious limitations, one of which being that it requires understanding when one species officially split from another vs. simply being two different variations of the same species (great example being dogs, all Canis domesticus, but insane variations about with the same species)

And we're back to, what makes a species a species, and genetics actually yes muddying the water further 😎
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2015, 07:06 PM
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Re: Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

Quote: Originally Posted by Betrisher View Post
AFAIK, any animal with 'red' or 'pink' eyes is simply one which lacks any pigment in the eye, thus the transparent tissues allow the colour of the blood vessels to be seen. Whether you call it red or pink, what you're seeing is the creature's blood: there's no mysterious genetically-determined pigment that causes the colouration. It's LACK of colouration. You can see it in mice. What everyone knows as a PEW (Pink-Eyed White) is the true albino mouse whose eyes are 'blood-coloured'. Various other genetic combinations are around (eg. fawn mice with pink eyes), all involving mosaicism for the recessive albino gene.

Sometimes, colouration can be sex-linked (as in mostly-male ginger cats) or size-linked (morbid obesity in fawn mice) or linked with other features (as in the scanty body hair of appaloosa horses). My personal favourite colour 'oddity' is the palomino 'gene' in horses. It's not easy to breed palominos because it's such a complex genetic make-up but I find it fascinating to read about all the combinations and permutations that are possible.

Regarding a Senegal/Conure cross, you could knock me down with a feather if that proves to be true. AFAIK, they are just too distant from each other on the evolutionary tree to be able to hybridise. Senegal parrots come from the sub-family Psittacinae and evolved in Africa while the Conures are South American and belong to the sub-family Arinae. I'm not a geneticist, but I'd bet quite a few feathers that the two families contain quite different genetic material.

You get hybrids between Lions and Tigers because both belong to the same genus (Panthera). Horses, Zebras and Asses all belong to the genus Equus. Galahs, Corellas and Major Mitchell Cockatoos (genus Cacatua) can all interbreed (albeit not necessarily with fertile offspring), so it beats me why taxonomists have put Galahs into a separate genus (Eolophus) all of a sudden.

The DEFINITION of a species is 'a group of animals capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring' although that has become quite muddied now since gene mapping became possible. Sigh. Makes me feel so old. When I was a young student zoologist, they taught us that one day someone would actually visualise DNA and we would work out how genes and chromosomes worked. Hey guess what? We've known about the structure of DNA for years now and the genes of most extant species have already been mapped! You can look at the DNA molecule under a microscope and, better than that, you can even modify some genetic details and virtually order up the genetic make-up you want. Whew!

And then that leads to ethical questions about population tweaking and effectively removing natural selection and being able to select the genetics of our own offspring. I honestly never thought I'd see this in my lifetime! What a piece of work is man, eh?

Sorry about the rambling post, but I've got Montezuma's Revenge and can't sleep. I felt writey so...
No your not rambling at all, matter of fact it is the most logical post thus far. I honestly fail to believe it's a Senegal conure cross, and believe me I have been searching the web trying to find a similar parrot to prove it's not a Senegal conure cross. But Having seen this with my own eyes I'm at loss for words, and believe me I have studied birds since 1971. When I had my first Bird of prey, a red tailed Hawk. So it's a bit baffling to me as well as I have seen just about every parrot out there, then see this and wonder " what the heck is that"????

I know many on here have posted that it's impossible, and I agree with everyone of you....But the Avian Vet and owner as well as many of the coworkers whom very knowledgeable on parrots are a bit baffled with this one. Many that have visited the store and own parrots are a bit taken by it as well. So trust me I'm not the only one saying it's not possible.
However the avian vet did a blood test (DNA and all) and confirmed it is a cross. How is what baffles me. And the make up of it is stunning yet weird if that makes since....I still think it's some species of conure. But I've yet to find it.
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2015, 07:14 PM
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Re: Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

You're really ramping up the anticipation factor, here! Hahaha! I'm really looking forward to the pics on Thursday!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2015, 07:18 PM
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Re: Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

Quote: Originally Posted by chris-md View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Betrisher View Post
The DEFINITION of a species is 'a group of animals capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring' although that has become quite muddied now since gene mapping became possible.
Very eloquently put! And how true. The true definition of a species is so unknown that there are multiple concepts of what make a species, all of which break down in their own way. The above is the biological species concept and is based on reproductive isolation. Problem being that intergeneric hybridization [i.e. Ara x Aratinga] are quite possible, let alone more closely related interspecific (Ara x Ara). Lions and tigers being a prime example of the latter.

This is where genetics is coming in handy, and maybe not so much muddy the water as to clear it up. The phylogenetic species concept (often molecularly derived, for simplicity sake, essentially how genetically different are two species) is probably the most clear cut definition we have, but even that has serious limitations, one of which being that it requires understanding when one species officially split from another vs. simply being two different variations of the same species (great example being dogs, all Canis domesticus, but insane variations about with the same species)

And we're back to, what makes a species a species, and genetics actually yes muddying the water further ��
Interesting post....enlighten me on something here as my curiosity is exciting me here...seriously. What if of all conures none are compatible in breeding with a Senegal except maybe one that was over looked. The possibilities do exist. it's only impossible because current data and research is limited on the fact. But there's that 2 % marginal possibility of unchartered data within breeds and characteristic that have not been fully examined or are rather inconclusive. This opens the doors to possibility.
Your thoughts on that?

LOL.. I'm just trying to figure out what the heck this bird is....it has the Grayish/ black head of a Senegal, the gold yellow bands on upper wings like a senegal,
the bright orange v vests of a Senegal, but eyes, long wings, and tail of a conure with coloration of rest of body of a conure. Very strange looking parrot, nice natured though. 2 vets, at least 60 people (parrot owners) and 7 coworkers of avian store haven't a clue other than it's a cross. No one has ever seen one of these.

Last edited by Hawk; 06-08-2015 at 07:27 PM.
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2015, 07:35 PM
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Re: Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

Quote: Originally Posted by JerseyWendy View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Hawk View Post

TWhy do I get attacked by you every darn time I post something? It is a bit annoying.

Ya Know it all!!
Ok, take a deep, long breath, please. Karen is most definitely not attacking anyone here.

You describe a rather peculiar looking budgie, Michael. Are you sure she has white feet??? Please have a look at this:

Albino Budgie - Lutino Budgie
Beginner Guide to Genes, Mutations and Hybrids
Albino Budgies - Cute Little Birdies Aviary

The colors you describe are nowhere to be found online - and boy, I looked hard and long.
Thanks, had a look at the links.....as for the colors, it's white, pink eyes, white feet, though has a hint of pink in them and orange beak. Very very petite and tiny.... I have never seen a budgie this small. LOL....I've seen humming birds bigger. it's 5 months old. You may be right, it could very well could be your typical albino.......but boy never seen one this tiny though....He's no bigger than my index finger in size,,,,,very tiny little thing.
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2015, 07:45 PM
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Re: Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

Quote: Originally Posted by Kiwibird View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Hawk View Post

I would have thought that too, I still can't work it out and has me puzzled.
But then there are those Breeders tend to do strange things to get a particular bird...I guess anything is possible.
I'll be interested to see this bird. Perosnally, I would put my money on they got an unusual mutation of either a senegal or conure (that somewhat resembles what a hybrid 'might' look like) and are selling it as such. Though, I won't completely discredit the idea either. Stranger things have happened! Especially with the kind of things they are doing with genetics these days. I think ethics (rightly so) is the only thing keeping us from seeing all kinds of strange animal combinations.
Ahhhh you know, that's the most sensible possibility yet. A mutation that resembles. But here's the kicker, The vet says they did a blood test ( or did they...makes me want to see the test now.) and he says that it is a cross. I still don't believe it. I have to side with you that it's a mutation, but can supply a photo of it on Thursday when I pick up the budgie. I bet you a hundred feathers you would be totally speechless.
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2015, 07:52 PM
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Re: Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

Quote: Originally Posted by Anansi View Post
You're really ramping up the anticipation factor, here! Hahaha! I'm really looking forward to the pics on Thursday!
I don't mean to.......Just I'm as curious as everyone else here as I think
Kiwi has it right....might be a mutation of some sort that makes it look like a cross and they are selling it as such. I'd be disappointed if that was the case because the vet told me different and trusted his word. No one seems to have known the exact species of conure ( if that's what it is) or seems to know if it's a mutated Senegal....( I have seen senegals that are as big as a quaker before, and senegals like mine that are very small.
My Senegal is the size of a budgie. Very petite, but vet says because it broke it's foot at a young age and was on meds, may have stunted it's growth.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2015, 08:15 PM
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Re: Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

So, I'm going to ask a question that probably is so obvious that it sounds silly asking it, but did you ask the parrot store/rescue where this bird came from? Its origin? If it came from someone who had a senegal and a conure together alone in one cage and owned no other birds, well that kinda answers the question-a peculiar and baffling answer, but an answer If, for example it was hatched in an aviary with many birds of many different species then it would be too muddy of a picture with too many possibilities and likely would not answer the question. Makes sense? I just can't wait to see it on Thursday!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2015, 08:29 PM
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Re: Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

Quote: Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by chris-md View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Betrisher View Post
The DEFINITION of a species is 'a group of animals capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring' although that has become quite muddied now since gene mapping became possible.
Very eloquently put! And how true. The true definition of a species is so unknown that there are multiple concepts of what make a species, all of which break down in their own way. The above is the biological species concept and is based on reproductive isolation. Problem being that intergeneric hybridization [i.e. Ara x Aratinga] are quite possible, let alone more closely related interspecific (Ara x Ara). Lions and tigers being a prime example of the latter.

This is where genetics is coming in handy, and maybe not so much muddy the water as to clear it up. The phylogenetic species concept (often molecularly derived, for simplicity sake, essentially how genetically different are two species) is probably the most clear cut definition we have, but even that has serious limitations, one of which being that it requires understanding when one species officially split from another vs. simply being two different variations of the same species (great example being dogs, all Canis domesticus, but insane variations about with the same species)

And we're back to, what makes a species a species, and genetics actually yes muddying the water further ��
Interesting post....enlighten me on something here as my curiosity is exciting me here...seriously. What if of all conures none are compatible in breeding with a Senegal except maybe one that was over looked. The possibilities do exist. it's only impossible because current data and research is limited on the fact. But there's that 2 % marginal possibility of unchartered data within breeds and characteristic that have not been fully examined or are rather inconclusive. This opens the doors to possibility.
Your thoughts on that?

LOL.. I'm just trying to figure out what the heck this bird is....it has the Grayish/ black head of a Senegal, the gold yellow bands on upper wings like a senegal,
the bright orange v vests of a Senegal, but eyes, long wings, and tail of a conure with coloration of rest of body of a conure. Very strange looking parrot, nice natured though. 2 vets, at least 60 people (parrot owners) and 7 coworkers of avian store haven't a clue other than it's a cross. No one has ever seen one of these.
Hi hawk, full disclosure: while my masters was in spring invertebrate ecology, I'm not a practicing scientist, so I can only conjecture here in ornithology.

Let's assume your hypothetical to be true:

Occams razor says the simplest answer tends to be the right one, right? One of these species is not like the other, and the biological species concept does work more often than it doesn't.

As a researcher, I would therefore question the classification of the conure in question. Maybe it isn't actually a conure (remember that natural selection, in certain situations can cause two completely unrelated species develop very similar features, called convergent evolution). This conure, while it might share features with a conure, might actually not be a conure, but a different genus more closely related to senegals than conures. Whoever first classified the species as a conure was mistaken in doing so. This happens FREQUENTLY in taxonomy. It's an ever changing field as we learn more about genetics and it's ability to muddy the waters with new ways of thinking and approaching life (traditional taxonomy relies mostly on looks and anatomy).

My second thought is that, on the genetic tree, this is in fact a conure, it's just that this genus of conure in question arose much earlier than other conures. This would put it oh so slightly more closely related to senegals than newer conure species, which could theoretically increase the odds of reproductive success.

Truth is we just don't always know why one species makes hybrids and others don't. I can give you MANY examples that further defy and support this singular definition. You think animals are confusing? Plants are even worse, and their hybrids are almost always fertile and capable of breeding.

This is the limitation of defining a species as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding. The larger problem, as stated before, really is that we still don't have a clear definition of what a species is.

Things are different for different reasons.

Clear as mud?

Last edited by chris-md; 06-08-2015 at 08:55 PM.
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