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Old 05-20-2018, 11:43 AM
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Re: Heís in hospital now, seizure?

You mentioned your african grey collapsed and died... and the budgie is also sick.... which indicates something that probably harmed both of them...
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:45 AM
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Re: Heís in hospital now, seizure?

Quote: Originally Posted by Scott View Post
Thank you for the update. Please know it is not necessary to reply individually!

You seem to have options covering all bases. Giving him meds for infection and antifungals "in the blind" is a reasonable course pending further tests. Problem with infection is different therapies are needed depending on the organism, but broad-spectrum drugs are a good guess. Hopefully he will show signs of improvement.

I would agree with giving him every opportunity to respond before considering euthanasia if he seems comfortable. Not always easy to determine, but eating, grooming, and activity are good signs.

Itís been 20 hours now and his condition hasnít detoriated so Iím really hoping we will get told signs of improvement tomorrow and take him home, I canít contact the vet I have to wait until they call me, if everythingís fine they wonít call til tomorrow. People keep telling me not to pay £700+ for more treatments and tests, as heís just a cheap bird and they die easy. The breeder advised this too. I get that this is realistic thinking, but he is definitely sentinent and it feels wrong to deny him help even if it puts me back a few years of saving. The breeder/shop was highly recommended, and I decided on a budgie last year because theyíre supposedly harder and have a much shorter life span than other parrots, I was going to insure him. I feel like I shouldnít have birds now. I was so hyper-critical and careful about everything because of the pain of loosing my grey, and treated the budgie with the care and dedication I would a large parrot. Apart from the UV light not being introduced completely yet I really donít think itís husbandry related, but itís hard to tell if I brought him home with it as heís been so up and down since I got him, when adjusting was an issue or When illness was itís hard to tell, ahh!
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:54 AM
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Re: Heís in hospital now, seizure?

Quote: Originally Posted by MonicaMc View Post
You mentioned your african grey collapsed and died... and the budgie is also sick.... which indicates something that probably harmed both of them...

Okay please don’t be replying to my threads if you are going to draw massively insensitive conclusions like that.
My grey died five years ago, in a different house, in a different city.
To imply I would get another bird without making absolutely sure there is no way the death of my grey could have any relation to the health of my budgie is really presumptuous about my regard for an animals well being and I feel you’re presenting a rather disregardful attitude towards other people’s ability to take parrot care seriously.
Our parrots become very close to our hearts, please be sensitive with people’s emotions about a trauma like a death here.

Last edited by skeetkeet; 05-20-2018 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:03 PM
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Re: Heís in hospital now, seizure?

This very much sounds to me like he has an Upper Respiratory Infection, as I stated he's probably had it since before you brought him home from the breeder.

It's very likely that he will make a full recovery if he's given the correct medication to treat the specific infection that he has. DIAGNOSING THE MICROBE THAT IS CAUSING AN UPPER RESPIRATORY INFECTION DOES NOT REQUIRE ANY EXPENSIVE, ADVANCED TESTING LIKE CT SCANS AND SUCH!!!!

Have they even mentioned to you about taking simple cultures from his nostrils/nares, his throat, and his crop (they should do a crop flush and test the fluid that comes back out), as well as a simple fecal culture? These are very simple and inexpensive tests that will not only diagnose the specific microbe causing the infection(s) (whether bacterial or fungal, highly unlikely that this is viral), but will also tell you what specific medication(s) the specific microbe he has will be sensitive to...This is pretty standard-hat, so I'm questioning the vet if they haven't mentioned or yet even done this step, as it's extremely common for young, baby birds who have just weaned, especially if they were hand-fed by a human breeder, to develop both fungal (yeast) infections and bacterial infections. I'm actually kind of shocked that they haven't put him on a broad-spectrum antibiotic, like Baytril, as this is usually the first thing that vets do, even if it's not the correct medication. I don't agree with doing this at all without first doing cultures, but it's usually done in probably 95% of cases like this...

If this vet has not discussed taking proper cultures from him and sending them out for testing, which will usually only take a couple of days, if not a day only to get results for, I would call them immediately and suggest this be your first step. There is no reason that your bird can't fully recover very quickly from this, but he has to be put on the correct medication(s) ASAP, as he's most-likely already been sick for quite a while.

I would not at all worry about CT Scans, blood work, etc. until AFTER the vet takes:

#1) A fecal culture to test for a fungal (yeast) infection and/or a bacterial infection in throughout his gastrointestinal tract, and
#2) Cultures from his crop/crop flushing, and from his nares/sinuses to test for a bacterial and/or fungal infection in his respiratory tract and/or lungs. A plain-film x-ray will also confirm or rule-out a lung infection/pneumonia, and will be much, much, much less expensive than a CT Scan, an ultrasound, etc.

Always start with the simplest tests based on what the most common possibilities are and then go from there. And since it's extremely common for baby birds just after weaning to come home with bacterial and/or fungal infections, and based on his symptoms, which are classic for an Upper Respiratory Infection and/or a GI Infection, this is the route that I would suggest going, as I'm pretty confident that they'll quickly find out that he has an infection or infections that are easily treatable with either an antibiotic, an antifungal, or both. I also suggest putting him on a probiotic supplement immediately, as this will aide in several different ways...Probiotics daily will help to fight any current fungal infection that he has, and it will help to replenish the normal, healthy bacteria that is normally living throughout their GI Tracts if he needs to be put on an Antibiotic, which will kill-off his normal, healthy flora, which often results in a secondary fungal infection. The Probiotics will do him no harm at all, but can help him immensely.
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:09 PM
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Re: Heís in hospital now, seizure?

skeetkeet - I did not mean to offend. You are new here, and I did not see any background about you having an african grey 5 years ago. In your own words, you went from talking about your budgie to saying that your african grey collapsed and died. No information that this was 5 years ago, in another house, in another city.


Quote: Originally Posted by skeetkeet View Post
While this was happening I was sitting beside his cage and the humidifier/night light was about a meter away, at first I thought he was looking at it then I realised his wings and posture was just so strange. He sort of stared at me while I was taking in the strange posture of his wings, and just looked really confused, his feathers were flat against his body and his eyes wide, he had weird movements that were juddery, and he was grasping my hands at one point with his legs splayed open, he just looked not right and from his demeanor I felt like he collapsed on my shoulder. I

My African grey collapsed and died, so I thought the worst.

Having more background history, then yes, it's safe to say that these two events are unrelated.


I see it mentioned in one post in a different thread about your african grey, which I did not see previously. My condolences for your loss. I hope you are able to get your little budgie healthy again and on the road to recovery!
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:18 PM
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Re: Heís in hospital now, seizure?

Thank you for your response Ellen, it was much more explanatory than the vet gave me, they havenít run fecal, nare and crop tests and said that would come tomorrow with the ct scans and everything. They said heís stable in the oxygen cage just breathing heavily, theyíre collecting the fecal samples and theyíre not looking right and theyíre giving him a nebuliser of various umbrella treatments. They told me they were really busy but would monitor him today and phone me tomorrow morning about testing, so I feel a little uncomfortable phoning and asking for them to run the tests before the morning.
Thank you for your help, this is the kind of response I needed, I donít want him to be put through more stress than necessary.
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Old 05-20-2018, 12:53 PM
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Re: Heís in hospital now, seizure?

Quote: Originally Posted by MonicaMc View Post
skeetkeet - I did not mean to offend. You are new here, and I did not see any background about you having an african grey 5 years ago. In your own words, you went from talking about your budgie to saying that your african grey collapsed and died. No information that this was 5 years ago, in another house, in another city.


Quote: Originally Posted by skeetkeet View Post
While this was happening I was sitting beside his cage and the humidifier/night light was about a meter away, at first I thought he was looking at it then I realised his wings and posture was just so strange. He sort of stared at me while I was taking in the strange posture of his wings, and just looked really confused, his feathers were flat against his body and his eyes wide, he had weird movements that were juddery, and he was grasping my hands at one point with his legs splayed open, he just looked not right and from his demeanor I felt like he collapsed on my shoulder. I

My African grey collapsed and died, so I thought the worst.

Having more background history, then yes, it's safe to say that these two events are unrelated.


I see it mentioned in one post in a different thread about your african grey, which I did not see previously. My condolences for your loss. I hope you are able to get your little budgie healthy again and on the road to recovery!
Thank you, and Iím sorry my context could use some work. I still havenít recovered from it, so when the budgie fell over it brought me back to that time, my grey and I were really close.
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:54 PM
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Re: Heís in hospital now, seizure?

Ellen's advice is excellent and may be grounds for accelerated testing to determine what if any infectious organisms are present. A timely course of antibiotics might yield observable benefits and help confirm the problem(s).
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Old 05-21-2018, 07:39 AM
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Re: Heís in hospital now, seizure?

Something else that is just my opinion Skeet...If you can't call the vet that literally has your bird ANY TIME YOU WANT TO, then you need a new vet...

Seriously, your bird probably could have been tested, treated, home, and better by now, in one visit.

I've never heard of a CT Scan for his symptoms, or even mentioning a CT Scan with his symptoms BEFORE cultures were even taken and an infection was rule out...

***So you aren't allowed to call this vet, they'll call you, because they're very busy, and before even taking ANY fecal or URI cultures they are talking to you about scheduling a CT Scan...RED FLAGS!!! This vet sounds horribly awful to me, and I'm pretty sure that they are only after your money!!! Is this a Certified Avian Vet?

Is there ANY other Avian Vet within a couple of hours of you that you could take him to? This is really troubling to me...based on his symptoms there is no reason at all that any Avian Vet would not run basic Fecal and URI cultures to confirm/rule out an infection as the first thing they do...they O2 treatment is fine as symptomatic treatment, but not curable treatment. Then to mention a CT Scan...

Did they tell you what they are giving him in the Nebulizer? Did they give you any possible diagnosis that they think this is, or that they are looking for with a CT Scan, instead of taking very basic Fecal and URI cultures, and maybe a plain-film x-ray to rule out infections?
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:03 AM
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Re: Heís in hospital now, seizure?

Hey Skeet, I just wanted to mention something also, I'm not at all against spending every dime you have to save your bird, whether a Budgie or a Cockatoo, doesn't matter. I'd sell everything I own to save one of my guys, or my dogs. So that's not my problem...

If I had a parrot with the symptoms that your Budgie was displaying, weakness, lethargy, fatigue, syncope, and crackling in his chest upon listening, I would immediately take him to my Certified Avian Vet, or if he was closed then the 24 hour Animal Hospital right near me. At the 24-hour Animal Hospital, they would immediately put him in the O2 chamber/cage, then most likely, because he's such a young Budgie, they would suggest that they try to stabilize him, then release him to my Certified Avian Vet AS SOON AS HE OPENS, OR THEY COULD GET HIM ON THE PHONE. They may even take the initial Fecal Cultures and the Nare/Nostril, Crop, and possibly Throat Cultures and send them out for testing IMMEDIATELY FOR ME, because they typically take a day or two, that way my CAV would have the results very quickly. Upon reaching my CAV, he would either order the very same cultures and possibly do blood work if I requested it and if he thought it necessary, or he would simply put him in his O2 chamber/cage and possibly do a nebulizer treatment of Albuterol ONLY if he was having trouble breathing, but not of any specific medication until the cultures came back. THE WORD "CAT SCAN" would not be mentioned at all at this point, possibly a plain-film X-Ray to look for fluid in his lungs/pneumonia, but that's it. And that might not even be possible if his breathing is bad enough to require a constant nebulizer, as with a plain-film X-Ray, a CT Scan, etc., they have to sedate the bird with short-term gas, and they won't do it if his breathing is not stable and they believe he'll survive it...

This is why what your vet is doing and how they are not only handling your bird's case, but how they have treated you as well is so disturbing, and is a red-flag for a greedy Vet Hospital. I couldn't tell if this was an Animal Hospital with an "Exotics" Vet on staff, or an actual Certified Avian Vet, but if it's only an "Exotics" Vet at an Animal Hospital then that explains a lot too.

No CAV or any other Vet for that matter should be immediately giving you $1,300 estimates that include expensive tests like a CT Scan based on your bird's symptoms. not BEFORE taking the simple, basic cultures I listed to confirm/rule-out a bacterial or fungal infection. It's ridiculous. AND HAD THEY SIMPLY TAKEN 10 MINUTES THE MINUTE YOUR BIRD HAD STABILIZED, 2 DAYS AGO, AND TAKEN THE FECAL AND URI CULTURES, THEY WOULD HAVE THE RESULTS BACK BY NOW AND YOUR BIRD WOULD MOST LIKELY BE GETTING A PRESCRIPTION AND GOING HOME!!!

Your bird stabilized with O2 and a Nebulizer Treatment only, probably of Albuterol or some similar steroid, which is yet another indication that he most likely has an Upper Respiratory Infection, a Lung Infection, Pneumonia, or something similar. They know this, any Vet would know this, and if they don't then they need some more training/education/experience. Something just isn't right here.

***What really bothers me more than anything else, even more than immediately ordering excessive and unnecessary testing before even ruling-out an infection, is the fact that you don't feel comfortable calling the doctors who actually have custody of your bird right now, and for the last 2 days. "They will call me, I can't call them...they're very busy right now"...That's awful that you feel that way...I can call, email, text, or go to my CAV's personal home on the spot if I need to, and he'll gladly see any of my birds at any time, or wake up in the middle of the night to answer a question or see one of them...That might be excessive, I know, but you should be able to call your vet as many times as you want to during office hours, especially if they are keeping your bird overnight for many days and are suggesting that you pay them $1,300+ for testing before they have even run cultures to rule-out infection...It's wrong, it's uncomfortable, and something isn't right here at all...Just my opinion as a long-time parrot owner/breeder and someone with a medical education and animal health background...

Your bird is now stabilized, he has been for over 24 hours, and he's not worsening, so if this were my bird, I would be finding the closest Certified Avian Specialist to you, whether they are a few hours away or not, calling them, explaining your bird's symptoms and exactly what has been going on to them, explaining what this place that has him is proposing be done, and asking them if they think it could be something as small/simple as an Upper Respiratory Infection/Lung Infection/Pneumonia, and if simply taking cultures for testing and medication purposes would be the first step that they would recommend, or if they too would propose a CT Scan and other invasive testing right away, before cultures. See what a CAV has to say, voice your concerns, and if they agree with me, then I'd go get your bird, pay your remaining bill, and take him immediately to this CAV.
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