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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2018, 11:37 AM
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Re: Hes in hospital now, seizure?

Awe, he looks like my very first bird, Keety!

I have 8 American/English Budgie hybrids/crosses, and they actually have half an English Budgie tuft on their heads, so you can't really tell if they are American or English, lol.

You nailed exactly what the issue with "specialist" vets in the US is, and it boils down to what the requirements are in this country to be able to officially call yourself an "Exotics" Vet, which is absolutely nothing at all...well, nothing over having a basic doctorate from a Veterinary Medical School and getting your state license to practice...In the US, an "Exotics" Vet is simply a General Vet who is "willing" to see animals other than cats and dogs. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. So while a "General" Vet will only see cats and dogs, and "Exotics" Vet wants to see all animals so they can make more money, that's it. You are not at all required in the US to have any extra education, training, or experience beyond Vet School and your state license to call yourself an "Exotics" Vet. Period.

On the other hand, in order to call yourself a "Certified Avian" or "Certified Reptile" Vet in the US, you half to obtain certification from one of the 3 available Veterinary Specialist Certification Organizations in the country, and in order to obtain any of those 3 Certifications you must do a certain amount of education beyond Veterinary Medical School, you must then do an official internship or fellowship under an existing Vet who already has that specific certification, and then you must take a number of tests in order to obtain that certification. This is usually an extra 2 years+ on top of the 4 years of undergrad college and 4 years of Vet School, along with the state licensing tests. This is why there aren't many "Certified" specialist vets in the US, because they make diddly as far as money goes while doing the internship or fellowship, and they have to start paying back all of their college and Vet School loans 6 months after graduation...OR, they can simply start practicing as a General Vet or an "Exotics" Vet right after graduating from Vet School and passing their state licensing tests. So there ya go...It's a shame, because even some "Exotics" Vets who have been practicing as such and seeing birds, reptiles, rodents, etc. for decades still don't know what the hell they are doing or talking about...it's dangerous actually, many birds, reptiles, etc. die from easily treatable conditions due to Exotics Vets who don't have a clue, and aren't capable of even coming to a proper and accurate diagnosis, let alone start the appropriate treatment...it's very, very sad and it's a system/law that needs to be changed ASAP. If you want to call yourself an "Exotics" Vet or an "Avian Specialist" then you need to be certified and go through what that entails...

It makes no sense, as human doctors who want to specialize or become surgeons do years and years of extra education, internships, fellowships, etc. beyond Medical School, so why don't animal vets have to do the same?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2018, 12:22 PM
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Re: Hes in hospital now, seizure?

Quote: Originally Posted by EllenD View Post
Awe, he looks like my very first bird, Keety!

I have 8 American/English Budgie hybrids/crosses, and they actually have half an English Budgie tuft on their heads, so you can't really tell if they are American or English, lol.

You nailed exactly what the issue with "specialist" vets in the US is, and it boils down to what the requirements are in this country to be able to officially call yourself an "Exotics" Vet, which is absolutely nothing at all...well, nothing over having a basic doctorate from a Veterinary Medical School and getting your state license to practice...In the US, an "Exotics" Vet is simply a General Vet who is "willing" to see animals other than cats and dogs. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. So while a "General" Vet will only see cats and dogs, and "Exotics" Vet wants to see all animals so they can make more money, that's it. You are not at all required in the US to have any extra education, training, or experience beyond Vet School and your state license to call yourself an "Exotics" Vet. Period.

On the other hand, in order to call yourself a "Certified Avian" or "Certified Reptile" Vet in the US, you half to obtain certification from one of the 3 available Veterinary Specialist Certification Organizations in the country, and in order to obtain any of those 3 Certifications you must do a certain amount of education beyond Veterinary Medical School, you must then do an official internship or fellowship under an existing Vet who already has that specific certification, and then you must take a number of tests in order to obtain that certification. This is usually an extra 2 years+ on top of the 4 years of undergrad college and 4 years of Vet School, along with the state licensing tests. This is why there aren't many "Certified" specialist vets in the US, because they make diddly as far as money goes while doing the internship or fellowship, and they have to start paying back all of their college and Vet School loans 6 months after graduation...OR, they can simply start practicing as a General Vet or an "Exotics" Vet right after graduating from Vet School and passing their state licensing tests. So there ya go...It's a shame, because even some "Exotics" Vets who have been practicing as such and seeing birds, reptiles, rodents, etc. for decades still don't know what the hell they are doing or talking about...it's dangerous actually, many birds, reptiles, etc. die from easily treatable conditions due to Exotics Vets who don't have a clue, and aren't capable of even coming to a proper and accurate diagnosis, let alone start the appropriate treatment...it's very, very sad and it's a system/law that needs to be changed ASAP. If you want to call yourself an "Exotics" Vet or an "Avian Specialist" then you need to be certified and go through what that entails...

It makes no sense, as human doctors who want to specialize or become surgeons do years and years of extra education, internships, fellowships, etc. beyond Medical School, so why don't animal vets have to do the same?



Im not in the US, but it sounds like a similar set up!!
Heres everything I can find on the vet in question;


"problem" vet weve been discussing
: Lecturer and Clinician in Rabbit, Exotic Animal & Wildlife Medicine and Surgery
RCVS Diploma in Zoological Medicine (Mammalian), Dip ZooMed (Mammalian)
RCVS Certificate in Zoological Medicine, Cert ZooMed
2007 RCVS Specialist in Zoo and Wildlife Medicine
graduated from the University of Bristol in 1994 and gained initial experience in a mixed veterinary practice, before becoming a wildlife veterinarian for the RSPCA and then operating a small animal exotic referral service.

In 1999 she joined the University of Edinburgh Exotic Animal and Wildlife Service as a Resident in Zoo and Wildlife Medicine and obtained the RCVS certificate in Zoological Medicine. She then gained the post of Lecturer within the Service teaching veterinary students and lecturing in exotic animal, zoo and wildlife medicine. She gained her RCVS Diploma in Zoological Medicine (Mammalian) in 2006 and achieved specialist status in 2007, one of only a handful of UK vets to hold these qualifications.

She lectures to veterinary professionals nationally and internationally on exotic pet, zoo and wildlife medicine. She is published widely in veterinary books on exotic pets, wildlife casualties, reptile neurology and rabbit neurology, and has edited books on rabbit, ferret and rodent medicine and surgery and wildlife casualties. She has a high clinical teaching caseload of pet exotic species and has a particular interest in Encephalitozoon cuniculi infection in pet rabbits."


Northern Parrots lists them here Avian Vets in Scotland


I know my emotions were high during our phone call and that I may have been getting on her nerves asking about all the different options and what are realistic financial risks which may have made her think I was implying I dont give a flying france about my animal (although the fact I was sobbing about him KINDA makes it obvious I took his life seriously) but its her JOB, I will be writing a letter to the university to notify them that she was suggesting putting down a stable animal with no diagnosed illness that would impede quality of life as an option if I didnt want to pay for further testing...

Last edited by skeetkeet; 05-23-2018 at 12:31 PM.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2018, 03:11 PM
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Re: Hes in hospital now, seizure?

Quote: Originally Posted by EllenD View Post
Awe, he looks like my very first bird, Keety!

I have 8 American/English Budgie hybrids/crosses, and they actually have half an English Budgie tuft on their heads, so you can't really tell if they are American or English, lol.

You nailed exactly what the issue with "specialist" vets in the US is, and it boils down to what the requirements are in this country to be able to officially call yourself an "Exotics" Vet, which is absolutely nothing at all...well, nothing over having a basic doctorate from a Veterinary Medical School and getting your state license to practice...In the US, an "Exotics" Vet is simply a General Vet who is "willing" to see animals other than cats and dogs. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. So while a "General" Vet will only see cats and dogs, and "Exotics" Vet wants to see all animals so they can make more money, that's it. You are not at all required in the US to have any extra education, training, or experience beyond Vet School and your state license to call yourself an "Exotics" Vet. Period.

On the other hand, in order to call yourself a "Certified Avian" or "Certified Reptile" Vet in the US, you half to obtain certification from one of the 3 available Veterinary Specialist Certification Organizations in the country, and in order to obtain any of those 3 Certifications you must do a certain amount of education beyond Veterinary Medical School, you must then do an official internship or fellowship under an existing Vet who already has that specific certification, and then you must take a number of tests in order to obtain that certification. This is usually an extra 2 years+ on top of the 4 years of undergrad college and 4 years of Vet School, along with the state licensing tests. This is why there aren't many "Certified" specialist vets in the US, because they make diddly as far as money goes while doing the internship or fellowship, and they have to start paying back all of their college and Vet School loans 6 months after graduation...OR, they can simply start practicing as a General Vet or an "Exotics" Vet right after graduating from Vet School and passing their state licensing tests. So there ya go...It's a shame, because even some "Exotics" Vets who have been practicing as such and seeing birds, reptiles, rodents, etc. for decades still don't know what the hell they are doing or talking about...it's dangerous actually, many birds, reptiles, etc. die from easily treatable conditions due to Exotics Vets who don't have a clue, and aren't capable of even coming to a proper and accurate diagnosis, let alone start the appropriate treatment...it's very, very sad and it's a system/law that needs to be changed ASAP. If you want to call yourself an "Exotics" Vet or an "Avian Specialist" then you need to be certified and go through what that entails...

It makes no sense, as human doctors who want to specialize or become surgeons do years and years of extra education, internships, fellowships, etc. beyond Medical School, so why don't animal vets have to do the same?
The short answer, I'm afraid, is "animals" are considered personal property and "soulless" creatures in most jurisdictions. Breaks my heart to know the minds of many folks are generations ahead of judicial systems.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2018, 03:14 PM
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Re: Hes in hospital now, seizure?

Quote: Originally Posted by skeetkeet View Post
Im not in the US, but it sounds like a similar set up!!
Heres everything I can find on the vet in question;


"problem" vet weve been discussing
: Lecturer and Clinician in Rabbit, Exotic Animal & Wildlife Medicine and Surgery
RCVS Diploma in Zoological Medicine (Mammalian), Dip ZooMed (Mammalian)
RCVS Certificate in Zoological Medicine, Cert ZooMed
2007 RCVS Specialist in Zoo and Wildlife Medicine
graduated from the University of Bristol in 1994 and gained initial experience in a mixed veterinary practice, before becoming a wildlife veterinarian for the RSPCA and then operating a small animal exotic referral service.

In 1999 she joined the University of Edinburgh Exotic Animal and Wildlife Service as a Resident in Zoo and Wildlife Medicine and obtained the RCVS certificate in Zoological Medicine. She then gained the post of Lecturer within the Service teaching veterinary students and lecturing in exotic animal, zoo and wildlife medicine. She gained her RCVS Diploma in Zoological Medicine (Mammalian) in 2006 and achieved specialist status in 2007, one of only a handful of UK vets to hold these qualifications.

She lectures to veterinary professionals nationally and internationally on exotic pet, zoo and wildlife medicine. She is published widely in veterinary books on exotic pets, wildlife casualties, reptile neurology and rabbit neurology, and has edited books on rabbit, ferret and rodent medicine and surgery and wildlife casualties. She has a high clinical teaching caseload of pet exotic species and has a particular interest in Encephalitozoon cuniculi infection in pet rabbits."


Northern Parrots lists them here Avian Vets in Scotland


I know my emotions were high during our phone call and that I may have been getting on her nerves asking about all the different options and what are realistic financial risks which may have made her think I was implying I dont give a flying france about my animal (although the fact I was sobbing about him KINDA makes it obvious I took his life seriously) but its her JOB, I will be writing a letter to the university to notify them that she was suggesting putting down a stable animal with no diagnosed illness that would impede quality of life as an option if I didnt want to pay for further testing...
You're a hero for caring enough and persevering with the "system" to invalidate the directives of a cruelly thoughtless vet. Hope her superiors will use your feedback to coerce (can't conjure a kinder method) better behavior.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2018, 03:18 PM
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Re: Hes in hospital now, seizure?

BB and Amy's doctors have a couple "plaque/degrees" in "Avian Medicine" so, doesn't that mean they went to school for that distinction??


Jim
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2018, 10:22 PM
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Re: Hes in hospital now, seizure?

40 grams would actually be considered on the small side for an English/Show budgie.

Australians can actually have fits about "us" calling them "American" budgies. They also go by pet, wild, Australian...

The larger variety typically go English, Show or Exhibition.



And don't fret about the gender thing! Seriously! I know it's annoying! Today I had two people walk up to my MITRED (My-Turd) conure and call him a Cherry Head! It's like calling a Jenday conure a Sun, or a Scarlet Macaw a Greenwing. Sure, they may look quite similar, but they are completely different species! I also have an african ringenck... Before I saw her, I was first told she was a canary wing... then I was told she was in the senegal family. I knew what she was immediately once I saw her. After getting her, I've had people tell me she was an Indian Ringneck (okay, same species..... different subspecies! Kind of like Congo vs Timneh African Greys) and one person told me that "african ringnecks" do not exist! It's an african grey! Uhm... I'm sorry? But she's not grey!

When I was around 15 or 16 years old, I remember a pet psychic putting on a presentation and she included photos of her two male budgies and female. She kept them separate because she didn't want them to breed. I told her that her female was actually a male. She obviously knew better because vets and breeders told her it was a female! And who am I to say differently? After all, I was just a kid! It did, after all, have a pink cere! Not the lovely blue cere of a male! Fast forward some years later and we met again. She had to thank me for telling her because she was attending a behavior seminar and that's when it finally clicked. She finally realized that her "female" budgie was in fact a male.

And my vet, for as long as she has been practicing, has never seen some of the birds I've brought into her! Including a bourke parakeet, the african ringneck, and a red throated conure! She's not avian certified, and honestly, I'm not sure why she isn't! If she doesn't know something, she finds out! She consults others or does her own research. And she admits to not knowing if she doesn't know.



Glad the little handsome guy is feeling better! There are some supplements that may help to put on some extra weight, but exercise can also be great there! The English budgies are kind of known for being more 'perch' potatoes than their smaller counterparts, so hopefully that's not an issue!
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:27 AM
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Re: Hes in hospital now, seizure?

Hey Skeet, how is he doing now? We haven't had an update on him in a while, just checking-in to see how he's doing...
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:27 AM
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Re: Hes in hospital now, seizure?

I'll reiterate what's already been said...
YOU are WONDERFUL to persevere in your pursuit of help, in the face of such odds and obstacles!
Yes, an update would be great.
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