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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-28-2011, 04:25 AM
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Re: hybrid cockatoo

Quote: Originally Posted by Bullitr View Post
I apologized to the OP it seems like I make a inappropriate comment.
In response to cross breeding
I am very new so after reading and asking around it seems like it's be a while before a think about getting another bird because we don't want to loss our family pet to another cockatoo.
I am not a breeder I just want to make our JOEY happy.

But If it happens in the wild why not?
It's like saying a person who white can only marry white person.lol
It only happens in the wild on rare occasions, and then the offspring don't usually survive once they leave the nest, let alone into adulthood.
If you aren't a breeder and don't have any previous experience, I wouldn't suggest you breed your bird. Especially a cockatoo. And especially hybridising.

Opinions are very strong here about hybridising parrots.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2011, 05:00 AM
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Re: hybrid cockatoo

This is a very nice pomelos crested cockatoo, very rare.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2011, 05:52 AM
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Re: hybrid cockatoo

Quote: Originally Posted by Bullitr View Post
I apologized to the OP it seems like I make a inappropriate comment.
In response to cross breeding
I am very new so after reading and asking around it seems like it's be a while before a think about getting another bird because we don't want to loss our family pet to another cockatoo.
I am not a breeder I just want to make our JOEY happy.

But If it happens in the wild why not?
It's like saying a person who white can only marry white person.lol
there are enough birds out there, without hobby breeders, i have no idea if cross breeding is good or bad, my take on this is, these birds live for so dam long! and it kinda scares me to think if these birds end up in an unlucky situtation, how long will it live in misery

as for wild caught birds grrrrrr!!!!
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:35 AM
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Re: hybrid cockatoo

Quote: Originally Posted by ShreddedOakAviary View Post
Ever read the article about the cockatiel and rosebreasted cockatoo that produce live offspring? Mobrellas are not as uncommon as I'd like.

It's like macaw hybrids but worse.... doesn't even produce pretty colors. I know a lazy crappy breeder right now who's got a citron with an elenora....
I'm not a fan of hybrids, but on the macaws, some macaw hybrids are better suited to family/domestic life then the parent species, in particular the Catalina Macaw (Blue-and-yellow Macaw x Scarlet Macaw) Seems to be regarded as better adapted to pet life then either of it's parents.

The other argument (on ALL species) against is preservation of species and individual genepools. I think this is important, even if hybrid breeding happens, that we keep pure lines to ensure the ongoing survival of the original species. With hybrids this becomes difficult (as shown by this thread!) as some hybrids can easily be mistaken for one of the parent species, or even a DIFFERENT species, and bred into that line, with the offspring marketed as 'purebred' when they are not, sold, and allowed to spread the genes of a different species amongst another. not good. Sometimes a bird can be as low as 5% or less of another species and it can be impossible to tell. It is arguable that because the phenotype is identical to a pure (for argument sake we'll assume no 'throwbacks' to the foreign species) it doesn't matter. But thats another debate for another time.

Of course, in reality even if we preserve these species in captivity, whats the chance of any of them seeing the wild again, even if we restore habitat? In some peoples opinions that would make the above null and void, as they would think we should instead focus on breeding 'ideal pets' to avoid birds being ditched at rescues etc, as they are going to be captive, purebred or not, so it doesn't matter. I don't agree with this point on ethical grounds, but it is out there, and it is a valid one if you think it over for awhile. Birds more adapted to captivity is a plus. Their is one rescue with a group of catalinas that have been given free reign of an aviary and they note that the offspring even a few generations in make better, calmer, less aggressive pets then most 'pure' macaws. So food for thought I guess.

Birds prefer mates similar to them! A avairy of jendays and suns will almost always pair off naturally into jen x jens and sun x sun mates.

As for wild occurrences, it DOES happen, but ONLY when the species natural range overlaps, and even then it is rare! The gallah and little corella have an overlap of range where my parents place is. They frequently interbreed, the offspring THRIVE and are fertile. Almost all of the gallahs have a small % of corella dna and vice versa as a result. The species may even 'combine' in that area. it's a natural thing. What's not natural is taking two birds of different species and forcing them to breed by locking them in an aviary together. I understand it does happen by accident sometimes, and they bond, and that is ok. But to deliberately breed hybrids is not fair on the parents, or the offspring, who often show conflicting traits, such as some lovebird hybrids who's parents nest naturally at different times. With conflicting biological rhythms they can become miserable birds. All thanks to irresponsible breeding. Nice. Good going. We as humans are pretty horrible sometimes.

What I'm trying to say is taking two birds that wouldn't even have contact in the wild due to different ranges and forcing them to breed is not ideal in the slightest. If their is an overlap of range naturally and hybrids occur naturally and are documented to be healthy happy birds, maybe, but still not ideal. Compromising a birds happiness for 'designer pets' is not cool, ever.

More on natural macaws near the end of this list http://animal-world.com/encyclo/bird...bridMacaws.php
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Last edited by Amber; 08-05-2011 at 12:27 PM. Reason: Link
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2011, 11:40 AM
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Re: hybrid cockatoo

Camelot & other Hybrid Macaws Is a interesting link on this one.

Hybrid macaws and some other species have been documented in the wild when ranges overlap, but not at a high enough rate to justify it in captivity IMHO. It's different for wild birds with all the choice in the world to choose each other, its another to force two into a cage together to force them to bond with the intention of getting offspring. That can go for both breeding hybrids and pure. birds shouldn't be forced to bond, ever. If they don't like a mate, locking them together to force them to go with their instincts to breed is cruel.


EDIT

Quote: Originally Posted by Bullitr View Post
It's like saying a person who white can only marry white person.lol
Racism aside, not really, it's more like saying a person can't marry a monkey.

We are all homosapiens, we have variation in skin and eye colour, features, etc, but we are the same species. These birds are related species, yes, but they are different species. Like people and chimps. Or donkeys and horses.

(We notice the differences between individuals of our species so easily because things like facial recognition are hardwired into us. So are other animals to their species. For example, to a blue and gold macaw, all blue and golds are just as individual as we seem to each other. Some are lighter, darker, larger, smaller, bigger beaks, bigger feet, smaller eyes, etc. They are hardwired to notice those differences so they can identify individuals within their flock. We could never pick out an individual in that flock without much training! but we can pick out individual people no issues)

EDIT AGAIN

Back on topic, that in no way looks like a pure
citron to me. But at this point it doesn't matter, he's alive and all he needs is a caring loving home, regardless of his genetic makeup. I'm assuming he's the OPs? If so, who cares what he is, just don't breed him until you have a definite I.D on him, but be sure to love him and cherish him. Problem solved.
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Last edited by Amber; 08-05-2011 at 11:59 AM.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2011, 12:34 PM
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Re: hybrid cockatoo

Well said Amber! I second all of that!
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Old 08-06-2011, 07:25 AM
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Re: hybrid cockatoo

Thanks Echo!

Sorry guys, I tend to ramble on a lot when it comes to this. I'm not 100% against hybrids, but I'm not exactly for it, if that makes sense. If the offspring were sterile like mules from donkey/horse matings were I probably wouldn't mind because that means genepools would remain separate. Even if their was documented breeding of each and every bird so their is a record of if it is a hybrid or pure, so hybrids could be marked as so, and pure birds guaranteed as so, but with nothing like that available you can see the risks we run. It's like the dingos here in Australia, hybridising with domestic dogs and ruining a genepool. Their are arguments for and against that are equally valid, but until I see a way to manage this correctly, I'm against it. Even the best breeder producing hybrids in a ethicial way (no harm to parents, no harm to offspring, no genetic conflicts like different breeding systems ie lovebirds etc and whatever) has no guarantee or say over what happens to those birds when sold. they could be re-sold as pure birds, and bred.

Their could be something like a kennel club, but for birds. in particularly species that can hybridise and be mistaken for parent/other species very easily. Because at the moment, the only way to guarentee 100% pure stock in many species is to buy wild caught birds, which is something else that should be stopped.
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Old 08-06-2011, 08:00 AM
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Re: hybrid cockatoo

In the perspektive of breed for certan behavior as don with dog I think that hybride could be a good thing
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Old 08-18-2011, 01:54 AM
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Re: hybrid cockatoo

Sorry if I touch a very sensitive subject

But after reading a lot about specially on a Catalina macaw it makes a good sense to me because you get the less aggressive scarlet macaw and create gentler, more beautiful bird.

In response to marrying a monkey
I never said a person can marrying a monkey ....( I don't know if thats a metaphor for something else regardless)
I am part black, white, yellow, brown as my ancestors
We are the rainbow breed but we are all humans

And i am Very proud of that.

Mods
if this is too political and not allowed in this forum
Please edit or delete.
My original post was not meant to be racial but i was just trying to be funny and not taken literally.
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:09 AM
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Re: hybrid cockatoo

Quote: Originally Posted by Bullitr View Post
Sorry if I touch a very sensitive subject

But after reading a lot about specially on a Catalina macaw it makes a good sense to me because you get the less aggressive scarlet macaw and create gentler, more beautiful bird.

In response to marrying a monkey
I never said a person can marrying a monkey ....( I don't know if thats a metaphor for something else regardless)
I am part black, white, yellow, brown as my ancestors
We are the rainbow breed but we are all humans

And i am Very proud of that.

Mods
if this is too political and not allowed in this forum
Please edit or delete.
My original post was not meant to be racial but i was just trying to be funny and not taken literally.
Nonono, I was trying to use an example. Humans are all the same SPECIES, different types of macaws are not. Lets say people are like budgies, even though they come in all different colours and types, they are all the same species. It doesn't matter if you breed a blue to a green, a pied to a normal, an english type to a wild body type. They are all budgies, and the offspring are still budgies, of the same species as the parent. Just like people of different races.

But a scarlet or a blue and gold macaw, or ANY species of macaw are NOT the same species. While the budgies are 'apples and apples' even though one may be green, and the other red, they are still the same species. Just like people. But a scarlet and a b/g or a military or a hyacinth macaw are not the same species. they have evolved from a common ancestor, but have diverged enough to be separate species. they are apples and pears. Just because you CAN crossbreed them, doesn't mean you SHOULD. Sometimes it gives good results, like the catalina. Think of a nashi fruit (applexpear fruit) that combines the best traits of the parent species. But most of the time it gives horrible results, with birds with conflicting bio rythyms for breeding and mating that makes them miserable, strange and often impossible to meet dietary needs (in particular with hyacinth crosses) and so on.


"But after reading a lot about specially on a Catalina macaw it makes a good sense to me because you get the less aggressive scarlet macaw and create gentler, more beautiful bird."

"In the perspektive of breed for certan behavior as don with dog I think that hybride could be a good thing "

In theory, yes. Controlled hybridisation can produce 'better' pets. Controlled being the word. F1 catalinas make wonderful pets, and the genetic pattern (bg one half, scarlet the other on the genome) is known. F2 and onwards catalinas (that is, the offspring and their offspring from the first cross) are however unstable, as genes 'swap over' and recombine in the process of making gametes, that will eventually become a new chick. This means instead of BG on one side of the gene, and scarlet on the other, it becomes a mix all around. This means instead of inheriting the traits as the first crosses did, they can inherit BAD traits from BOTH sides, potentially making them MUCH worse pets then the original species.

Bs
BS
bS
BS

Catalina F1 hybrid genome example above.

SB
bB
SS
Sb

Catalina F2 hybrid genome example above

B/b- B and G - S/s Scarlet

Capitals are dominant genes, lowercase recessive. lets say for example all the dominate genes (Alles, whatever) in the first one are 'good' genes we want in the offspring, which is usually what happens with F1 catalinas. In the second one due to translocation of alleles and parts of the genome when gametes are formed (sperm, egg) we end up with a mixed genome. This means we have no control over the combination of genes the offspring of a catalina x catalina mating will have, and we could end up with vicious birds, sweet birds, anything. It's more risky and near impossible to predict compared to the original species. And these multi generational hybrids also have a plethora of health problems (The initial crosses escape this, but their offspring do not) due to health issues from BOTH species existing in the one creature.

This is in addition to my previous post.

Unless you have a VERY sound understanding of genetics, you should not be breeding hybrids. And if you DO understand genetics, your not going to want F2 and beyond crosses to exist ever, and when we produce f1 birds we have no control over whether they mate of not after we sell them. Meaning, we are indirectly responsible for the offspring.

And, although I have used catalinas, cats are the EXCEMPTION TO THE RULE here. Most hybrids (even F1 hybrids) are 'worse' pets then either of the parent species due to behavioural issues arising from conflicting bio rythyms, etc. They lead miserable, confused lives. Hybrid love-birds being an easy to point out example here, some of which are believed to suffer from 'bird depression' as a result of their conflicting natures.


"Hybridising" dogs is not hybridising birds. Dogs are the same species (Canis familaris). A hyacinth and a scarlet are not.
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