Fancy Stuffy Nose Followup

[FrancisMom]

So I took Fancy to the vet. He didn't really have any info for me, just gave me nose drops for her. The nose drops were gentomicin OPHTHALMIC drops, but the instructions clearly said to put in the nose. Does this sound right to you guys? I have no idea,and you guys have so much knowledge and experience I figured you'd know what's going on.
When we left for the vet it started raining and was still pouring when we came home. I put Fancy in her cage where she perched all bent over with her head tucked under. Finally she came out and actually went over and ate. She looks like she's cold so I have her on an afghan with me on the couch.

 

[noodles123]

Is it a CAV or just a vet?
Did he test poop (gram stain) and blood (CBC)?
I am kind of shocked that he just gave her drops without at least doing some tests first, as birds hide illness.
Looks like the medication is an antibiotic, and if he just took a random shot in the dark w/o testing I would run like the wind and find a new doctor.
If she has a fungal infection (such as aspergillosis (sp?)), then the antibiotic could make things worse...
If he is a CAV, I would call and ask him for details as to why he chose to medicate this way (perhaps he saw something specific and didn't mention it).
If he isn't though, this is not best -practices...Guessing is a terrible idea.
Her behavior doesn't sound healthy (puffed and tucked)....Do not wait to get a second opinion if this guy didn't test her...

 

[FrancisMom]

the vet is CAV. There are only two avian/exotics vets in my area, and I actually looked at the other one first, as they were closer. The first one did not give me a good feeling just visiting their lobby. I looked up the reviews and they were terrible! This vet gave me a much better feeling and they have NO base reviews on any website.
I think I'll give them a call tomorrow and ask some questions.

Thanks all!

 

[noodles123]

A CAV isn't the same as an exotics vet though. Is yours actually a CAV or just an exotics vet that treats birds?

 

[Laurasea]

Yes I had to treat my GCC upper respiratory infections with the antibiotics eye drops to the nose. They cured her many times. It's a great way to get medicine right to the source of the infection. Especially since sinius are congested and they are empty spaces without a blood supply. So putting the medicine into the nose works well.

 

[Laurasea]

As I stated above yes put in the nose. My GCC had only one functional nostril and throughout the years would get sinus infections, the drops in the nose cured her quickly. 90 % of the time it is a bacterial infection. I highly recommend feeding foods high in vitamin A, you can feed her warm cooked pumpkin, warm cooked butternut squash or warm carrots the warm food will help her feel better to. I also always recommend feeding red chilli peppers too they have the most vitamin A . I hope she feels better soon, I would get those drops in like the vet prescription says, I think you will see her get better quickly especially if you feed the foods I recommend, often the low vitamin A is what allows them to get sick in the first place. What is her diet? Does she eat pellets?

 

[ChristaNL]

Y'all know that a cold is a virus-infection so antibiotics (that kill bacteria) do not do any good, right?



Just saying ...

 

[EllenD]

Gentimycin is a bantibiotic that is used to treat a lot of different Bacterial Infections (not Fungal), and even though they gave you it in an eye-drop form, it can actually be used as a sinus treatment or even an ear-drop, as those formulations would be exactly the same thing...So yeah, it's fine to use that in his nose...

However, that isn't the problem you have...The problem you have is that your Vet prescribed your bird an antibiotic without diagnosing what type of infection he has, or if it's an infection at all, and they had no way of knowing whether or not Gentimycin will treat the infection, if it's Bacterial, or not, and if it's not, say it's Fungal, then the antibiotic will only make it much worse.

It's extremely odd that a CAV would just look at your bird and prescribe an antibiotic without taking a simple swab/culture to just even look at under the microscope to see whether they see Bacteria, Fungi, both, or neither, and then if there is Bacteria, what type...Gentimycin is an odd choice for a sinus or upper respiratory infection too, because it's a very commonly used one that is becoming one of the ones bacteria is resistant to...But either way, if this vet is one of the ones who just gives an antibiotic without doing a culture to actually diagnose what is going on, and then says something like "If he's not better in a week call me and we'll try a different antibiotic", then that's not good at all...There is a Cockatiel who is dying in the cockatiel forum right now because of just this issue, a Vet gave him Doxycycline for an Upper Respiratory Infection without doing a culture, he's been on it for 2 weeks or so, and now not only is the initial infection worse, but he also now has developed a Fungal infection in his GI Tract secondary to the Doxycycline...a simple culture would get it right the first time...

 

[Laurasea]

One of the benefits of putting the medicine in the nose is that you are not treating systemically, so you aren't killing of the GI Flora. It's also easier on the kidney and liver. Since you have an adult bird that had t been exposed to new birds, a virus is less likely, and most if the chronic viruses effect them systemically so she would have other symptoms. Yeast usually starts GI then spreads but not always. Nebulization is probably the best of the best, but really the antibiotics placed into the sinus is a very practical and safe approach by an experienced veterinarian. It's much faster working and easier on the birds body for what is most likely a bacterial infection. Overuse of antibiotics definitely leads to yeast and fungal problem. Since we aren't vets and we didn't exam your bird, all we can do is share our experience. Since you saw a CAV with good recommendations and you delt comfortable with them I would trust their judgement. We all hope Fancy gets well quickly!!! I too feel blood work and fecal exams are good practice even for well parrots.

 

[EllenD]

One of the benefits of putting the medicine in the nose is that you are not treating systemically, so you aren't killing of the GI Flora. It's also easier on the kidney and liver. Since you have an adult bird that had t been exposed to new birds, a virus is less likely, and most if the chronic viruses effect them systemically so she would have other symptoms. Yeast usually starts GI then spreads but not always. Nebulization is probably the best of the best, but really the antibiotics placed into the sinus is a very practical and safe approach by an experienced veterinarian. It's much faster working and easier on the birds body for what is most likely a bacterial infection. Overuse of antibiotics definitely leads to yeast and fungal problem. Since we aren't vets and we didn't exam your bird, all we can do is share our experience. Since you saw a CAV with good recommendations and you delt comfortable with them I would trust their judgement. We all hope Fancy gets well quickly!!! I too feel blood work and fecal exams are good practice even for well parrots.

The big issue here is that she has no idea if the antibiotic her bird was given was one that will treat what is going on. That's the problem, not the Route of Administration of the medication at all..I actually use Neo-Poly Dex eye drops quite often at the Rescue in ears, the sinus passages, and actually in the Nebulizer (the Dextrose isn't great for this method, but it still works wonders)...Something a lot of people don't realize is that many medication formulations are exactly the same. For example, many antibiotics that come in both an injectable formulation, such as IM or IV formulations, and are labeled as such, are EXACTLY the same formulations as the one labeled for Oral use. They just come with different labels on their bottles, and usually the Oral formulations cost more, ridiculously. Tylosin/Tylan 50/100, Amoxicillin, Tetracycline, etc. are all like this. It's mostly a money scam by the pharmaceutical companies, to be completely honest...

****My major issue with what this Vet did, as was also wisely commented on by Noodles first, is that they did the "let's try this and see if it works" thing, or the "Just in-case" or even "I'm guessing this will work" thing...I have yet to figure out if this is just due to laziness, lack of education/training, a hesitation/fear by the Vet to want to take cultures from a bird/reptile, or even a lack of knowledge about what to look for under a microscope, but any way you look at it it's irresponsible and actually quite dangerous in a lot of cases...And it cannot be due to them wanting to save the client money, say if the client tells them they cannot afford to pay extra for lab tests, because they can at the very least use their Microscope to diagnose quite a lot of infections (as most cultures have to be sent out to a lab to be grown, but ANY and ALL Vets should be able to do a Gram-Stain, a Fecal-Float, or even just a wet-mount or direct slide of a swab they take and be able to visually identify whether they see Bacteria, Fungi, or both, and be able to use basic Microbiology/Cytology skills to at the very least narrow-down any Bacteria present to Gram - or Gram + and shape, etc., which will give them a lot of direction as to what antibiotic will at least have a shot at treating it)...And this shouldn't cost the client a penny extra, as they are not sending anything out to a lab to be tested, and they aren't using any supplies that should be charged for, they're just taking swabs/cultures, mounting them on a slide, staining them, and then looking at them under their microscope...that's it.

So that's why it's so difficult to understand why any Vet would just look at a bird, say "they probably have a sinus infection", and then just choose an antibiotic that is either very broad-spectrum, or that is used to treat the most-common cause of sinus infections in birds, when they could literally KNOW for sure what it is and what will work to treat it in about 10 minutes of extra work. And as far as a Fungal Infection goes, they absolutely can develop a secondary Fungal/Yeast infection from getting antibiotics through other routes of administration than oral, as Yeast/Fungi is kept at-bay by healthy, normal Flora all over the body, specifically in all bodily orifices, as well as in any areas with mucous membranes that are warm and moist. Any route of administration that leads to the antibiotic reaching the blood-stream can cause secondary Yeast/Fungal infections locally, as well as systemically in totally unrelated areas...The most common example of this is how women commonly develop Vaginal yeast infections whenever they take antibiotics not just orally, but by injection, and if the antibiotic is strong enough, even topically. Even if Gentimycin is the correct antibiotic to treat the infection that this bird has in his sinuses, it may very well cause a secondary Fungal Infection, not only throughout his sinuses, but also throughout his GI Tract, in his eyes, in his ears, and in his throat/mouth (as "Thrush" is a common side-effect of taking antibiotic eye drops, ear drops,
and nasal sprays). We often forget about Thrush, Vaginal Yeast Infections, and then also yeast/fungal infections that are topical or in the eye, ears, sinuses, etc. But they are extremely common when taking any antibiotic that reaches the bloodstream, which is pretty much all of them except most topical antibiotics that are used on the skin...

The bottom-line to this is that too many birds, reptiles, amphibians, etc. are dying because of this very issue. And they typically die because they are given medications that do not treat whatever it is that is making them sick, because no simple diagnostic testing is done and the Vets just "guess" what is wrong and what medication might treat what might be wrong. And what's worse is that a lot of the time they suffer for weeks while taking the wrong medication, and THEN they die...when a simple swab on a slide under a microscope can diagnose them properly and enable the choice of the correct medication to treat what they have...And that's just totally unacceptable in this day and age when all Veterinary offices have a compound microscope, blank slides, and a Q-tip...

 

[FrancisMom]

The vet is specifically CAV - I asked when I called them initially.

 

[FrancisMom]

Okay, here's another update. What was bothering me all along was how quickly this came on. The weather is changing, not for the better, here in Atlanta but I couldn't imagine that being the cause of this.
We got the Coway air purifier system in just before this started, but I had that turned off for 24 hours before we went to the vet, and there was no change. So I figured that wasn't it.
After I got home from the vet I suddenly realized that I had just put a new toy in her cage the day this started. Noodles probably remembers my NewMember post where she reminded me about toys bought from places that actually sell birds. This toy was bought from one of two places (I can't remember which), who sell birds. Remembering the post, I immediately removed the new toy. Everything has completely stopped. She's not sneezing or sniffling anymore at all, and you can't hear her breathing anymore either.
So should I still be worried or just learn and move on?

 

[FrancisMom]

All right - I keep trying to post a reply and it doesn't look like it's working. So this may be another double-post. Anyway...



Okay, here's another update. What was bothering me all along was how quickly this came on. The weather is changing, not for the better, here in Atlanta but I couldn't imagine that being the cause of this.
We got the Coway air purifier system in just before this started, but I had that turned off for 24 hours before we went to the vet, and there was no change. So I figured that wasn't it.
After I got home from the vet I suddenly realized that I had just put a new toy in her cage the day this started. Noodles probably remembers my NewMember post where she reminded me about toys bought from places that actually sell birds. This toy was bought from one of two places (I can't remember which), who sell birds. Remembering the post, I immediately removed the new toy. Everything has completely stopped. She's not sneezing or sniffling anymore at all, and you can't hear her breathing anymore either.
So should I still be worried or just learn and move on?

 

[dhraiden]

Hey Linda,


Good to hear about these updates concerning Fancy. Glad to hear the respiratory issue seems to have resolved itself. Monitor her behavior and let us know. Also pictures are always welcome, when you can suss out how that all works


Worry itself is rarely productive unless it leads to effective action. So you took Fancy to a CAV, and isolated one potential variable cause. What material is that toy you took out made of? Fibrous? Metal? Does it "shed" in some way?



Just an eye on Fancy and the purifier, stimulation, and a warm, stable environment with a good diet should be the start of more good things for your 'too buddy.


EDIT/PS: EllenD's points on properly identifying the specific and particular bacteria/virus/fungus/etc are salient to keep in mind should any sign of sniffles and such return. It may seem bothersome, but if no feasible alternative to the CAV you've already visited is readily available, you can always (politely, of course) insist that you'd like the peace-of-mind of having a swab done to determine what the exact cause is.

 

[Laurasea]

Are you useing the medicine? Because that can work quickly, it did for me in the past. Glad to hear she is better!!!!!