cage dominance...forcing to step up

So in all the research i have done, many sites will tell you in fact not to make your bird step up on your hand if it doesn't want to. So that is what i did yesterday, then the bird started to refuse to step up, test biting, backing away, bowing head then biting.

Then i came across a site where the person said if you don't establish that you are in control of the situation and cage, then they will just get worse. So today i did force the bird, through persistence and then reward with a peanut. It seemed to almost halt her previous behavior.

I was just seeking others opinions. It seems to me, that making the bird step up when i wanted it to, actually made the bird have more respect for me? And now will more easily do what i wish without trouble.

Is that what you guys see as well? Also, then why are so many of these "training" sites that say don't make the bird step up if they don't want to....when really it seems that over time this will just make them more aggressive if you let them be in control.

After the initial making her step up, she was very happy talking up a storm on top of her cage. So i don't think it scared her or upset her. I really think it made her more comfortable.

Granted i have only had the bird 2 days, but this is already something i noticed. And curious on others take on the principle of encouraging the bird to step up when its acting like it doesn't want to.

Uh-oh! That's the sound of a can of worms creaking open...

1. First of all, it really, really depends on how it's done.

2. Secondly, a lot depends on the disposition of the bird, it's background, and what the bird responds to...

3. The term "force" is a minsnomer when you are in fact, rewarding the bird with a peanut for doing something it was reluctant to do... that is basic "nuts and bolts" positive reinforcement technique right there. (pardon the pun!)

4. Those training sites are easily misunderstood, or misinterpreted, or poorly written, or in many cases just plain wrong...

5. In my opinion, the hardest behavior of all to correct (other than plucking, of course!) is a bird with "spoiled bird syndrome." (Especially if that bird is a too! Kill me now!!! It's easier to prevent, than re-train once they get their mind set that they're "not gonna - this means war!") So, just letting them do what ever they bloody well please, not only ISN'T the answer, it's a recipe for disaster.

The standard example I give was an intervention I did a few years back on a dominant male greenwing who had literally taken over the house. He was chasing the owners around the house, and screaming and biting when he didn't get his way...

He chased my little butt, and ended up with a surprise. I pulled the cushion off the couch, which was taller, and larger than he was, and backed his little butt into the corner. Made him sit there and think about it for a minute pinned into the corner...

He didn't get out of the corner until he stepped up nice. Had to push his beak away, and put him back on the floor a few times until he got the concept, but once he figured out that I meant business, he NEVER TRIED TO BITE ME AGAIN...

Now, the owner, who ignored all his bad behaviors, went to pick him up off my arm (and I'd known this bird for all of ten minutes at this point! And was holding him on my bare hand.) And nearly lost his nose in the process...

WHY?! Because the bird had learned he could bite the guy, and get away with it, with zero ramifications. With me, he knew full well he would be back on the floor in a heartbeat...

Now this was an extreme case, and obviously not the preferred method of parrot training... but when they are out of control drastic action is sometimes needed. It isn't a first resort.

Parrot training involves boundary setting, in much the way that parenting toddlers involves boundary setting. If the kid is doing something you don't want the kid to do, and you go get the kid and pick him/her up and prevent him/her from doing it, that's "NO." TELLING A KID "NO!" OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WHILE SITTING THERE ON YOUR BUTT WATCHING THEM DELIBERATELY DISOBEY YOU, DOES NOT INSTILL THE CONCEPT OF "NO." (Gee, what can you do? Children these days just don't listen to their parents... Ummm.... DUH!) The same principles apply to a FID. Same IQ, Same basic temperment as a human toddler, without factoring in the obvious parrot hormonal differences...)

They don't learn the meaning of the word "no" by letting them do it time after time. They learn "no" by intervention. And "no" HAS to mean "no" starting with "NO BITING!" Pushing the beak away, and or, controlling it for a second or two with two fingers is usually sufficient to enforce "no bite."

"NO" is by definition a negative. So, despite all the press that you NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES use negative reinforcement, you are NOT positive reinforcing a parrot all the time. The concept of "NO" is the one clear exception to that rule... CROSS THIS LINE BIRD, AND BAD THINGS HAPPEN IMMEDIATELY, IF NOT SOONER, AND YOU AREN'T GOING TO LIKE IT ONE BIT... And after about the second or third time it happens, and the cause and effect thing kicks in, they understand the concepts of "NO YOU WON'T." and "YES, YOU WILL, you may not like it. You may complain about it, BUT YOU WILL." And to me, these are basic safety issues...

Just like toddlers, they respect clear boundaries. It's up to us to teach them those boundaries...

You don't so much force them to do things, as you set clear limits on behaviors, and you enforce those limits.

What you don't do is bully a bird into submission. You don't spank them for things they've done retroactively. They won't "get" a rolled up newspaper... You don't potty train a bird by rubbing his beak in poop... etc. It doesn't work. It will not work. (Unless of course, the goal is to train the bird not to like you... then, it's probably one of the better methods of parrot training.)

They will get, if caught in the act when they cross that invisible line, the sudden appearance of Mr. Towel... (and my birds know the phrase "knock it off" in context. My CAG uses it in context with the other birds.)

In some cases that's NO...

In other cases, that's YES... (i.e. Tusk, you WILL take a bath! Sally when I got her was so badly cage bound and phobic that she would not come out of her cage unless forced to. She'd still be cowering in her cage if Mr. Towel hadn't persuaded her that coming out of it was necessary.)

But it's almost always a last resort, and only if you absolutely must, because their behavior warrants it.

The preferred method.

What you want to do is persuade, but not take NO for an answer.

Charm them, bribe them, get them interested in something. Like that? Wanna see? Gotta step up then... No, step up nice, no biting...

Then make it a pleasant experience for them, so they want to do it again next time, and reward them when you put them back... and then build on it a little bit each day from there.

(I generally have the opposite problem in my house. I'll walk in the room, and then all these little feet go up in the air for some reason... Except the macaws, of course, they hang by their beaks waiving both feet in the air... why, what could you possibly want me to do?! )

I am not the expert Birdman is, in fact I continue to learn things and put one of his recommendations to use this morning and it made a difference with my Ekkie, I've had her for24 days now. I've been looking at her body language and when she is in the mood, offer my hand and tell her to step up. If she's not in the mood she bites and this has bothered me. This morning I got her out and she attempted to bite me so I used the two fingers on the beak, pushing her back. WOW it worked and changed dynamics quick!

I've found getting her out of the cage makes it easier to work with her, rewarding with treats, is helping too. You have a more difficult situation though so I will say have a ton of patience. I have a GCA, it took him 5 months to take a shower, it was persistence and patients. There were other things too we worked on but it didn't take days, it took months. I'm still working with him on harness training, we are going on 3 months now and we are still going.

Yes birdman thanks for posting...i think when i posted "force"...i did mean what you say persuade. Not taking no for an answer.

That is why i post, to know if by doing that i am in fact doing the right thing. I figure it is best to get in front of these things.

After that initial need of persuasion, i have been taking her in and out of cage, working with her, letting her go on top of cage. All the while she has been great.

So perhaps your right in the majority of those parrot training sites are poorly written or i just misunderstood when it says if they don't want to come out not to make them. I feel that is the worst choice as it leads to what you describe. I will definitely not have my bird run the house!
......

So far though i have having tons of fun with her

Yeah, it is a bit vague, and some of it is worse than vague...

The concept of IGNORE THE BITES has trained more birds to bite people than I can count...

STUPID! STUPID! STUPID! ADVICE IN MY OPINION....

You train a bird not to bite you, by communicating when he is using too much force and it hurts. By ignoring the biting, you not only encourage it, but you also never teach the bird not to hurt you...

My macaws, when they are upset, will still pinch me. In fact, my Red Fronted Amazon was SUPER PISSED at me one day, and I had my hands full with the bird on my arm where I could not control her... and that did not go unnoticed. She took a beak full of skin on my forearm, and twisted, while pinning her eyes at me, then, when she let go, she told me "Owww! That hurts."

Now, this hard pinch did not break the skin, and did not even leave a mark. It was an expression of the bird being upset about it, and I actually allow stuff like that from time to time... as long as it doesn't break the skin.

Pinching like that is what they are SUPPOSED to do when they are upset. Otherwise, what you get is FULL ON BITING... (They still need to be able to express their feelings... all living things get upset from time to time.)

I worked with cage bound birds, and biters all day long...

And my own personal take on this, is as long as the bird is not a plucker... because you work with them differently than all the others....

Breaking the bad habits sooner rather than later is preferable.

I had the resources available to "fix it" though.

A cage bound bird gets put out on a playstand, away from the cage for many hours at a stretch... If you have a weekend where you're going to be home most of the time - perfect.

The bird's gonna be stressed and upset at first, for a few hours, to a few days, but then they get used to it and are no longer stressed. And just like flicking a switch, the bird is no longer cage bound... Over it in one weekend.

But if you wanted to continue working at it fifteen minutes per day for months, slowly building up a tolerance for being out, that works too...

We used to put cage bound birds on my big playstand for a day or two. In most cases, no further "cagebound" retraining was required... That was a "two-fer." It also taught them to "play nice with others." My flock would gang up on them if they didn't behave...

So birdman, i have a playstand for her that is in the same room as her cage...they are right next to each other. Should have have the play stand separated from the cage?

it does seem like when i handle her, she is always keeping an eye on her cage, and has the want to fly to it.

jasper19 said:

So birdman, i have a playstand for her that is in the same room as her cage...they are right next to each other. Should have have the play stand separated from the cage?

it does seem like when i handle her, she is always keeping an eye on her cage, and has the want to fly to it.

Click to expand...

Right, the protocols for cage bound birds is to get them out on a playstand in another room, away from the cage, and leave them out there... take them out of their comfort zone, and in the process, expand their comfort zone... "Welcome to the world, bird. That's just your nest. It'll still be there when you get back to it."

The other thing that works is the boing on the hangar trick... with a couple of toys. Move it from room to room through the house. Get the bird used to the house.

I basically gave cage bound birds a "tour" of the place on my arm. If there were places in the house that made them particularly fearful, we saved those for last... BUT WE DID THEM!

And then the bird wasn't afraid anymore.

WITH ONE WORD OF CAUTION - DON'T DO THIS WITH A PLUCKER!!!

So if the primary room where i want the cage....is also the room where i spend most of my time and want to have the playstand...is there a solution to this?

I can maybe find another room for the cage....will have to think about it.

jasper19 said:

So if the primary room where i want the cage....is also the room where i spend most of my time and want to have the playstand...is there a solution to this?

I can maybe find another room for the cage....will have to think about it.

Click to expand...

You're not understanding what I'm saying. (Or, maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to do.) I thought you said this bird was cage bound and you were trying to break him of that.

You don't put the playstand in the other room permanently. You move it around on him, and put him out on it, AWAY FROM THE CAGE as a temporary measure, to (1) get him less dependent on the cage and deal with his cage bound issues and (2) teach him to stay put on his playstand, even in unfamiliar surroundings where he's a bit spooked.

Maggie's playtstand is right next to her cage. But I also throw it in the car, and take it to, say, the laundrymat, and she's perfectly content to sit on it outside all day.

Same deal with boing on a hangar. The point of the training is to get them comfortable on something in unfamiliar surroundings, self entertain, and stay put!

Oh i am not sure of the term "cage bound"....is the behavior i described of her seem that way to you?

She will step up for me, i put her on top of cage she climbs around on cage and playstand. She will step up to go back in.

Just initially she was acting agressive not to come out of the cage. But when i was more persistent and with the peanut...she stopped the biting motion and will step up

Also i am going to give it quite a bit of time before i make too many changes. Need to let her fully settle down and adjust..there is a lot new here.

Like i am not sure if i should introduce her to my dogs right off the bat? And have her downstairs in the family room with us. Or if i should keep her in a seperate area for a little while. My initial thought was to wait a few weeks, then start to introduce her to everyone, and bring her other places in the house.

Everyone has their own thoughts on that.

I always did it right away unless they were pluckers.

They adjust.

Birdman666 said:

Everyone has their own thoughts on that.

I always did it right away unless they were pluckers.

They adjust.

Click to expand...

I did see a vet bill/report from when she was young...like under 3 years old i think? That said she had some minor plucking happening. Then another saying she stopped i believe. Does this constitute her as a plucker in your eyes if she is almost 15 now? Hasn't had any reported plucking other then that.

Also thank you birdman for your help and opinion. I really do appreciate your input. Maybe i am over thinking the whole thing, i just want to make sure i am doing it right, from the start.

No. Doesn't sound like a correct diagnosis, or I would suspect the plucking was minor caused by something other than psychological factors.

Dietary factors, exposure to certain metals, etc. hormones in the case of "nesty" plucking, can all trigger it.

True, Neurotic psychological plucking triggered by change, you have to be exceedingly careful and consider everything before doing anything...

Most birds simply adjust.

jasper19 said:

it does seem like when i handle her, she is always keeping an eye on her cage, and has the want to fly to it.

Click to expand...

Could be just nervous about being handled at this point. Doesn't sound cage bound to me.

A true cage bound bird won't come out... you have to fight them to get them to leave the cage. And they become quite aggressive in and around the cage...

I'm not coming out, but nothing else is coming in....

What happens is the cage becomes associated with safety. As long as that cage door is closed, nothing can mess with me in here. I am the king/queen of my tiny domain... and I will defend this place to the death, because if I lose it, I lose my nest... it's all I have left in the world. (My quality of life sucks, but at least there's food and water, and safety...)

Just opening the cage door can be enough to cause the bird to fly off the handle and go into attack mode.

When I got her, Sally was like that, AND WORSE...



Yeah, this bird! The well adjusted bird about town... wasn't so well adjusted once! It took two months to get the basics down, and four months to get her completely retrained... and that was working with her seven days a week.

Now, she's the opposite of cage bound. She lives out on a playstand.

I love that car perch! Zilla needs one so she can be a bird about town with me!

Amanda_Bennett said:

I love that car perch! Zilla needs one so she can be a bird about town with me!

Click to expand...

Those are easy to make as well. It's just PVC.

Measure your seat. Construct it to the width of your car seat.

For a zon I'd use the one inch PVC for the main perch size. You probably want to use the smaller PVC for the frame so that it's snug against the headrest. They have "converter" connectors to connect the different sizes of pipe for your two main perches. I actually had two different diameter perches on this thing, because it was also used with my conures. The lower perch is more conure sized. The larger perch is amazon/macaw/CAG sized. (When I made this I had 11 birds, and they all went out and about.)

The "treat cups" are nothing more than Large PVC Pipe end caps upside down, with smaller PVC fittings glued to them, so they just stick in the T connect fitting. You can pull them out for ease of cleaning.

Six elbows. Two T connect fittings. Two converter fittings. Two large end caps. And one ten foot pipe. You're probably looking at somewhere around $10.00 to make one of these... IT'S EASY!!!