An observation about plucking

Mark51

New member
Feb 19, 2018
23
0
Hi, everyone. As you may know from my other thread, I am a new owner of a Timmy, a 1 year 8 month old Timneh. This is my first experience with owning a parrot. I have done LOTS of reading and have come across MANY stories and articles about plucking and feather destruction in African greys. This has got me thinking about something. I lived for many years in a third world country and over the years I visited many pet shops with African greys and came across many African grey pets owned by various people (both Timnehs and congos). In this country the mentality towards birds in general including parrots is VERY different than ours in the US. There a bird is an animal kept its WHOLE life in a very small cage (By our standards) and usually living it's whole life on a seed only diet with no toys..etc... horrible conditions compared to the way birds are kept in the US. So all these African greys (some of which were 30 or 40 years old) were kept their whole life in a very small cage eating only sunflower seeds and an occasional peanut. No toys, no out of cage time, no hands on interaction with their human owners. But a lot of these greys were excellent talkers with huge vocabularies (words and phrases). But what strikes me most when I think back on these greys, I can't remember a single African grey that I saw that had ANY feather problems!!! No plucked feathers, no barbered feathers. Nothing!! I can remember making mental notes to myself how beautiful their feathers were. How can this be??? When here in the US we spend more money and more time on our parrots than many would spend on their child!!! We hear and read and experience numerous cases of parrots that pluck and mutilate their feathers, many of which are owned by the most experienced parrot owners and living in (what we consider) 'ideal' conditions and living like a family member in their homes. Even the most experienced bird owners many times do everything in their power to prevent and deal with feather destruction in their birds but still fail. I have read numerous accounts of parrots after for example 10 years of having very healthy feathers, starting to mutilate their feathers for the silliest of reasons (like they are unhappy about the channel that is on TV or they wanted the red you not the green one!) I know I am exaggerating here with my examples but I just wanted to illustrate my point. I'm sure you all know what I mean.
This really gets me thinking. Why the difference? Is more, sometimes not better? Those other parrots that I spoke of from my past got near nothing (tiny cages, bad diets, near zero real bonds with their owners) and yet they did great!!!! Maybe (and I'm just thinking out loud), maybe WE have it all wrong??!! Maybe the diets and living conditions and excessive bonding and daily human interactions with our pet parrots is actually causing them to 'suffer' ???
Again, I repeat that I am new to parrot ownership. So these are only thoughts based on observations I have made. But I can't get out of my mind the thought that those parrots living in (what we would consider terrible living conditions) were actually living LONG lives talking and mimicking and maintaining beautiful feathers. In other words it seems to me those parrots were living much more mentally and emotionally stable lives than many of our parrots who live in 'luxury' !!!

I really don't know what to think of this.

I'd be very interested in hearing your opinions.

P.s. I realize that many (If not all) those parrots were probably wild caught and that may be an important factor. But I also know that many of them had been owned since a very young age and lived many many years from a very young age in captivity.
 

SilverSage

New member
Sep 14, 2013
5,937
93
Columbus, GA
Parrots
Eclectus, CAG, BH Pionus, Maximilian’s Pionus, Quakers, Indian Ringnecks, Green Cheeked Conures, Black Capped Conures, Cockatiels, Lovebirds, Budgies, Canaries, Diamond Doves, Zebra Finches, Society F
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that being wild caught may be important. I have a lot to say about this but I can’t right now.

Short version; parrots are usually produced from failed pets. Birds that scream, bite, pluck, and mutilate themselves are often sold cheap or even GIVEN to breeders; the pets we produce today are MORE paranoid, LESS stable, and all together not as healthy as their wild counterparts because we have bred them that way.


I’ll say a lot more later (for example, parrots do not start plucking for silly reasons) but I have a lot of respect for someone taking the time to challenge what we know and assume about our parrots. THAT is how we learn more the truth instead of just repeating what we have been told by others.


And Tsali says “Hi Timmy”
d0b2d7126d9322fd26250a05d84ffaec.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
OP
M

Mark51

New member
Feb 19, 2018
23
0
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #3
Thank you, Silversage, for your reply and I am looking forward to your more detailed reply. Just for the record, when I used the word 'silly' I didn't mean it as silly but rather 'simple'. I mean I have read about parrots who after started plucking or mutilating their feathers or developed problem behaviours and after extensive investigation (vet visits, lab tests lifestyle evaluations), it turned out to be the 'simplest' or slightest of changes (like the new curtains were stressing the parrot out) that was causing the problem.
And also just for the record, I got Timmy the largest cage i could find, I am already working on converting him from an all seed diet to a more healthy diet (pellet based with a supplement of healthy fruits, veggies and nuts) and I got him many toys and I have already made some foraging toys for him. I am also working very hard on building a bond with him and giving him the best living conditions possible.
However, I just can't help get frustrated (after reading about how 'fragile' many of our parrots can be and abiut all these erious emotional/behavioural proplems many of even the best and most experienced parrot owners are facing with their parrots. I mean every day since I got Timmy, I find myself thinking to myself things like: if I shave today or If i wear my new sweater is the slight change in my appearance going to stress Timmy out? It is as if we have to 'walk on ice' with our parrots or else they will 'crumble' emotionally and behaviourly, while in other countries (as I described) where the approach and mentality towards pets in general (including birds) is VERY different, parrots live in conditions that we would consider borderline animal abuse and their owners never even think about all the issues we think about, yet their parrots seem to be living perfectly stable (emotional and beharioral) long lives. It just gets me thinking: why? And: what are we doing wrong?
Thank you.
 

DRB

Well-known member
Jan 23, 2016
1,024
75
Ohio
Parrots
Perjo - Female CAG hatch Nov 2015
Let's also remember most if not all Greys (that are pets today) have evolved different than Greys in the wild today. My vet gave me a great talk one day about how the captive species is quite different than the wild species of the past and present.
 

LordTriggs

New member
May 11, 2017
3,427
24
Surrey, UK
Parrots
Rio (Yellow sided conure) sadly no longer with us
This is something I've thought about before, how is it that seemingly the best kept parrots can become the worst pluckers?

I think I have 2 possible hypotheses over this, both being similar but with a slight difference. 1, would be that parrots kept in these poor conditions (often from birth) simply don't know any better, they are born, get put in one of these small cages unable to really move with their feet stuck in place with only sunflower seed and that's it for their entire life, nothing changes and nothing happens so they just watch life go by not understanding they normally would go join in, and I would bet this causes some fairly extreme psychological damage and damage to their intelligence.

The other theory I have is they are simply terrified of everything and do whatever warrants a good response, namely talking. Often you will find that when these birds scream, lunge, bang things, pluck ETC the human will do something scary like shout back throw something at the cage or even strike the parrot. this then results in the parrot keeping quiet to protect themselves save for sounds that offer extra food.

In contrast to parrots kept in better conditions, these parrots understand relationships and emotional variance, along with desires and other such emotions both good and bad. They see that they can express themselves and get used to their certain ways of living, but of course life happens to us and things can change quickly. What this can do is turn a parrot who enjoyed how things were and happy into an unhappy parrot who wants things to go back, they communicate to us that they don't like it but we don't understand and eventually that stress boils up to the point where a minor thing sends them into a frenzy of pulling their own feathers out in anger/stress/upset (think of the classic human pulling their own hair out) and of course with a parrot having that pair of scissors on the face this is far more violent than us harming ourselves.

Nothing there "experimented" or read upon, this is just my own little hypothesis on the subject, essentially a stable environment is in some ways better for them than a life filled with ups and downs
 
OP
M

Mark51

New member
Feb 19, 2018
23
0
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #6
Thank you all for your replies. I think many very valid theories were proposed. The theory about breeders producing parrots that are predisposed to these problems. And also both theories proposed by LordTriggs are very interesting and I think probably very true. Silversage, I think your breeding theory is very similar to the idea of the many breeds or dogs that have very serious temperamental or behavioural (and sometimes physical) problems. WE (humans) bred this into them! And LordTriggs, you made me think of a few things I've thought about in the past about us humans. My son is 4 years old and by many standards I have provided him with a very luxurious life (some may consider a spoiled life!). He has tons of toys and tons of clothes and tons of shoes and we treat him like a prince :) But he is constantly unhappy with his toys or his clothes and frequently throws tantrums because for example he doesn't want to wear the green pants but wants to wear the red ones! I have compared notes with many friends who have kids his age and they all have similar issues. However, during my years that I lived in 3rd world country, I saw kids running around without shoes and in raged clothes playing with rocks and sticks with the smiles on their faces and they seemed happy as can be. Get one of those kids a real toy and he would be the 'king' of the neighborhood!!! He would be ecstatic!! Those same kids I'm talking about, if they misbehave, they would get a slap on the but (to put it mildly) and trust me when I say they learned to obey their parents and all it would take is a stern look and they would behave!!! Try to get my son or one of his friends to behave!! Hehe!!! PLEASE. PLEASE. PLEASE don't misunderstand what I am saying. I am not in any way advocating physical punishment or denying kids the luxuries of life. I am just voicing an observation I have made. I think the same applies to pets. A parrot that only had a tree branch to chew on may be a much more content and easily pleased bird, compared to a parrot that has new and fancy toys provided frequently. The second parrot would probably be much 'harder to please' and much harder to keep happy because we 'taught' it to be picky and get bored with its toys easily..etc... Sometimes one must consider the possibility that bigger is not always better and more is not always better.
Sometimes, too many options makes life more complicated and makes one less happy rather than more happy.
I'm sorry I didn't mean to turn this into a philosophical post.

Thank you.
 

Tami2

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2017
5,088
2,454
New Jersey
Parrots
Levi - 6 yr old CAG

DOH-4/2/2016
Hello Mark and thank you for bringing this thought provoking topic to the forum.

I am also a fairly new grey parront. Levi will be two in April.
I have been searching for the same answers even before buying Levi. There was one girl in a local bird store that surprised me. I was sharing with her my concerns, to possibly prevent Levi’s future self-mutilation.
Her response was don’t keep changing up and constantly adding new toys to he’s cage. She went on to say that stresses them out.
Now I started researching African Greys at least 6 years prior to getting him. This was the first time I heard this and quite the contrast to all the other information out there. So much so, that I almost blew her off. But, I did tuck that info in the back of my head. So, I am very intrigued with your premise and following closely to all the responses.

I love your analogy with the children of today. And I am a big believer of,
- Less is More. :smile049:

So again, thank you for bringing this to the forefront.
 
Last edited:

SailBoat

Supporting Member
Jul 10, 2015
17,646
10,008
Western, Michigan
Parrots
DYH Amazon
May this bump, keep your Thread near the top of the Board.

The responses are well considered reasonings.

Thank-you, for bring this subject to the Forum. Looking forward to additional thinkings.
 

Kalel

New member
Jan 2, 2015
473
8
Canada
Parrots
Sun conure named Lemon (nickname Moonie) hatched August 28, 2014, BFA Professor Green hatched August 22, 2014, Macaw Flash hatched Sept 15, 2007
Hello Mark. Welcome and congrats on your new bird, Timmy! This is such an interesting topic and thank you for your thought provoking presentation. I once posted thread that someone wrote that supported SilverSage's is theory that maybe birds that pluck were bred that way. That they were genetically inclined to pluck and that is the root cause of their problem. I will see if I can find that thread and re-post a link to it here.
 

Kalel

New member
Jan 2, 2015
473
8
Canada
Parrots
Sun conure named Lemon (nickname Moonie) hatched August 28, 2014, BFA Professor Green hatched August 22, 2014, Macaw Flash hatched Sept 15, 2007
So here's a short little piece about plucking and one guy's theory. He runs a bird sanctuary here in Canada. He also asks the same question you asked: why is it that a bird in a stable happy home may pluck while another bird in less than ideal conditions will not. Although not scientifically proven and there are is no true scientific research behind his theory it still is thought-provoking and interesting to view plucking in a way that we possibly wouldn't have thought of before.

Parrot Island - Exotic Bird Sanctuary - Home Page
 

GaleriaGila

Well-known member
Parrot of the Month 🏆
May 14, 2016
15,045
8,742
Cleveland area
Parrots
The Rickeybird, 38-year-old Patagonian Conure
Fascinating discussion.
I love conversations that raise more questions than they answer. And what more agonizing and frustrating a topic than plucking? My vet has told me that in his experience, the mst frequent pluckers are Cockatoos, Greys, and Patagonians, so even though the Rb has not plucked (despite a brief episode of barbering), I've always been very interested, and vigilant, concerning the topic.
I appreciate the ideas on genetics, hyper-sensitizing/"spoling" birds, and environmental minimalism, so to speak.
Just a lot to think about!
Thanks, Mark, and everybody.

Edit:
I also wonder about all the stuff we spray and otherwise scatter in our "modern, clean, good-smelling, sterilized" environments...
 
Last edited:

Tami2

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2017
5,088
2,454
New Jersey
Parrots
Levi - 6 yr old CAG

DOH-4/2/2016
So here's a short little piece about plucking and one guy's theory. He runs a bird sanctuary here in Canada. He also asks the same question you asked: why is it that a bird in a stable happy home may pluck while another bird in less than ideal conditions will not. Although not scientifically proven and there are is no true scientific research behind his theory it still is thought-provoking and interesting to view plucking in a way that we possibly wouldn't have thought of before.

Parrot Island - Exotic Bird Sanctuary - Home Page

Excellent read thank you for posting this.
I will reach out to my breeder an ask the question. Were my parrot’s parents pluckers?

This premise is infuriating to me. As I’ve been a purebred dog owner for well over 20 years. And a good breeder will breed out the undesirable traits. Everyone knows this. So, if this is happening it is absolutely disgusting.

In all honesty, Levi has been our biggest ongoing investment compared to our many Labrador Retrievers over the years. So, if breeders are knowingly breeding birds that pluck it is unforgivable for many reasons. One being the medical and other expenses trying to correct this self-mutilating destructive behavior.

I am beyond angry if this practice is indeed happening.
 

bill_e

Supporting Member
Parrot of the Month 🏆
Dec 24, 2015
1,225
414
New Hampshire
Parrots
Nike a Hawk Head Parrot (Deroptyus accipitrinus)
Inbreeding seems to be at least one likely cause, not unlike what has happened to some pure bread breeds like Golden retrievers.

Maybe picking an unpopular species as a companion is a safer way to go in the absence of any hereditary lineage.
 

Kalel

New member
Jan 2, 2015
473
8
Canada
Parrots
Sun conure named Lemon (nickname Moonie) hatched August 28, 2014, BFA Professor Green hatched August 22, 2014, Macaw Flash hatched Sept 15, 2007
Yes, Tami2. I agree with every word you said. Perhaps we need to start asking more of these questions to raise awareness of this possibility because up until now the most common answer for plucking is stress. A new bird in the family, moving to a new home, having a baby, decreasing out of cage time from 4 hours per day to 3 hours per day, etc. are things that people may isolate as a cause for plucking. Perhaps there it is a combination of a stress as a trigger coupled with a bird that is genetically predisposed to dealing with stress by plucking. You are right though, Tami2 about some important questions we should ask breeders. In addition to asking if the bird was handfed, fledged, weaned properly, what kind of diet, and so on we should also ask if the breeders, the breeders parents, or any of their offspring have ever plucked. I would like to think that no breeder would breed a "plucking line" purposely, but to be fair I don't know how many people have even thought of this as a part of the reason for plucking. So very fascinating of a topic and I love that we are discussing this very real consequence to parrot ownership that probably every single person who has owned a bird has feared may one day happen to their beloved friend.
 

Tami2

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2017
5,088
2,454
New Jersey
Parrots
Levi - 6 yr old CAG

DOH-4/2/2016
Yes, Tami2. I agree with every word you said. Perhaps we need to start asking more of these questions to raise awareness of this possibility because up until now the most common answer for plucking is stress. A new bird in the family, moving to a new home, having a baby, decreasing out of cage time from 4 hours per day to 3 hours per day, etc. are things that people may isolate as a cause for plucking. Perhaps there it is a combination of a stress as a trigger coupled with a bird that is genetically predisposed to dealing with stress by plucking. You are right though, Tami2 about some important questions we should ask breeders. In addition to asking if the bird was handfed, fledged, weaned properly, what kind of diet, and so on we should also ask if the breeders, the breeders parents, or any of their offspring have ever plucked. I would like to think that no breeder would breed a "plucking line" purposely, but to be fair I don't know how many people have even thought of this as a part of the reason for plucking. So very fascinating of a topic and I love that we are discussing this very real consequence to parrot ownership that probably every single person who has owned a bird has feared may one day happen to their beloved friend.

I absolutely agree on every point you've made.

I am not going to call or email. I will go and ask the girls in the back about what happens to the plucked birds that are not for sale. Usually they are young (hopefully honest in their response), and tend to the birds and cage care. Than I will ask the owner about Levi's parents. I want to see his body language.

Wish I knew about this earlier as I was just there on Wed and spent a ton of money on food, perches and toys for Levi.

So, the bottom line as I see it...
I am doing everything in my power to avoid this horrific self-mutilating, self-destructive behavior and it won't matter if it's genetic. Ugh :eek:
Talk about feeling helpless .... :(

Ya know, it always puzzled me that Alex, yea 'The Alex' was a plucker. Given his rich amount of interaction and training w/ Dr. Pepperberg. I was very surprised by his plucked appearance.
 

Rival_of_the_Rickeybird

Well-known member
2x Parrot of the Month 🏆
Jul 31, 2016
1,367
1,863
Ohio
Parrots
None. My wife has one too many. Kidding!
Our CAV is awsre o Bird's parents were wild caught, and often mentions this as a reason for Bird's health and longevity. A couple of yers ago, Bird decided to barber a few wing feathers, then decided to stop. Vet said he was surprised to see plucking in a wild caught or first generation bird. I presume he was thinking that inbreeding or poor breeding might be eventually be responsible.

I wonder if many breeders even suspect that plucking might be genetically governed. In fact I have heard of breeders thinking that plucking might be caused by sexual frustration, and then pairing the birds up for that reason.

I don't know much about birds. This is just stuff I hear.

What a puzzle.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
M

Mark51

New member
Feb 19, 2018
23
0
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #17
Hi, everyone. I would just like to thank everyone for the great contributions to this discussion :)
 

MySweetJess

Member
Feb 17, 2017
64
0
Gloversville, NY
I lost my ACG in February of last year. He plucked, not a lot, just were crop was and a little around it. Then he plucked more as he got sick. The whole time I had him I worried about showing TOO MUCH attention. I envied the parrot owners who were calmer and more confident about having a parrot. And yet they say a parrot will pluck if it is bored and needs more attention. The whole 19 years I had him, I worried. I did leave him flighted and he flew all over a very large apartment we had, but then the building was taken over by the city and I had to moved to a small apt. which I found out had leaky furnace pipes, the building inspector let the real estate agent know as the house my apt. is was being sold. He started going downhill about 3 years into being in this smaller apt. But anyway, I would tell people I loved him to death, but "I'm really not a parrot person." This was even though he whistled all the time, did the horse racing bugle call, the Andy Griffith theme song, and a few others. His whistling was sometimes so beautiful it sounded like an atonal Bartok piece! He talked, said cute things, "I'm gonna tickle your tummy." "I won't be long." "Hi booby." The vet said he was super strong when I took him for a check after seeing him drool one day. Normal labs. She put him on an antifungal, which I didn't even want to give because he had already rallied back to normal with a little apple cider vinegar added to baby food and with red palm oil (now out of production).

Anyway, I did read by a vet who knows the parrots and has a blog that the healthiest parrots he ever saw were those kept years ago by peasants in the mountains of Mexico. "They ate what the peasants ate."

I have no answer, except maybe one thing: They don't like you to stare at them. I think just being calm and quiet, except for the fun chatter and whistling, is okay. Thank you for your interesting post.
 

Banana

New member
May 23, 2018
25
0
I think that an AG could pluck due to stress, hormones, or genetics. That wasn't very helpful. I sort of feel the same way you do, because at my local parrot adoption centre, some of the birds are given smaller enclosures and others are given much larger ones. However, they all do not feather pluck... except a few of them with larger cages. I mean, it is still best to get them a large cage.
 

mh434

New member
Oct 28, 2014
473
9
BC, Canada
Parrots
Yellow-naped Amazon "Sammy"
Love birds (4)
Green-cheeked Conure "Skittles" - now, sadly gone from my life
Blue-Crowned Conure "Tequila"
African Grey "Reno" - sadly, now gone from my life
Our CAG Reno wasn't a plucker, but he was an inveterate chewer. He's in his mid-30's now, and was a non-stop chewer from the time he was a chick until he was 30 years old. He NEVER had full plumage, in his entire life.

When we got him (from a breeder who kept him after the others were gone), he had some feathers on his head, and a couple of long ones on each wing, but everything else was chewed off to the skin.

We integrated him into our flock, and kept him amused, well-fed, active, and busy, mentally and physically, with lots of physical contact, conversation, and a huge variety of food. He shares our dinner with us every day (which means we have to eat at least one parrot-friendly food at every meal!), and he enjoys that immensely. I don't think it's the food so much as the flock-sharing-of-food.

Now, about 3 or 4 years later, he could be the poster child for the perfect CAG. Interestingly, as he finally has full flight feathers, at the age of 35 or so, he's finally able to fly! He doesn't do it often, but when he does he enjoys it immensely. I suspect that's another thing that's improved his life enough that chewing/plucking simply no longer occurs to him. He's a well-adjusted CAG, with a sense of humor & serious attitude.
 

Most Reactions

Top