Injured CAG

lplummer52

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My girlfriend in Virginia has a female CAG that she rescued through Phoenix Landing. "Nellie" is an extreme plucker and therefore cannot fly because her wings are featherless. She was like this when my friend adopted her about 2 years ago. She's tried everything to get her to stop to no avail. I have had this friend for 40 years and know she takes wonderful care of her pets. Nellie fell a couple days ago and injured her foot. The CAV said her knee is inverted. It's very swollen and the bird cannot put any weight on it. They say they cannot do surgery themselves because this is such an unusual injury. They'll call her tomorrow to recommend a specialist, probably Univ of PA or Cornell. The bird has stopped talking and will only eat hand fed. She has a very hard time perching. They said the surgery will be at least $2500. My friend has recently lost her husband and is in a precarious financial position, much less that she is unable mentally to make the trip from Virginia to PA or NY. Any thoughts or suggestions?
 

SailBoat

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I'm surprised that the CAV elected not to split the knee so that weight is not placed on it. Please check that point. Until the next step is taken, the CAG should be restricted to platforms or bases only with food and water brought in close by. It would not be realistic to believe that the CAG can /should perch at this point. The CAG is likely in extensive pain and their being quiet would be common.

Time to call in friends and family for help getting to the specialist.
 
OP
lplummer52

lplummer52

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She has pain meds she's giving to the bird. She is seeing a certified Avian vet recommend by Phoenix Landing. What do you mean by "split the knee."
 
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lplummer52

lplummer52

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GaleriaGila, I used your link to search for certified Avian vets in Virginia, and Stahl is where she took Nellie to be examined. So she is on the right track. Just wondering if anyone else has dealt with an "inverted knee."
 

Billdore

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This is very sad I hope she can get things figured out 2,500 bucks ain't nothing to sneeze at.
 

Scott

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Morty

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Maybe I am in an unfavorable camp here to say this, but I firmly stand by euthanasia when things are complex or unrealistic. Always an option to keep in the back pocket, especially when finances are strapped and prognosis isn't favorable. Sometimes rest is the best gift.
 

Billdore

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I used teh care credit credit card a while back got 1,000 dollars interest free for a year.
 

ChristaNL

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Actually: if you can do anything about it do it NOW.
a bird with no usable wings is totally dependent on the legs for *everything!
( I have a non-flighted one here with bungled wings and I see everyday how much they depend on whats left - make sure that still is in fine working order)


Don't be cruel - it is a huge joint and any injury to it is excruciating.

SO...try the Scot-way first and give some serious thought to Morty's as well.
(It is very brave to even mention that- we do not like to lose our birds, but let them sufffer without any hope and in permanent pain is far far worse.)

Get on the phones, find a CAV-surgeon (maybe a teaching hospital will do it for free/ just the price of the materials and medication used, maybe a "pay-dollar-a-month"-plan can be made).


I have no idea what you mean by "inverted knee"- dit it overstretch and bend the wrong way? Did it get knocked sideways? Try to use the medical term if you know it - that is what they are there for ;) so we know what happened, plze?
 
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EllenD

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This is a HUGE injury if it's actually "inverted". That typically means that many, if not all of the ligaments of the knee are completely torn, and usually it implies that the Tibia actually "twisted" and is no longer facing forward...So if the bird's foot is now pointing in an abnormal direction, that's what it means...That's the only definition I've heard of a knee joint being "inverted"...It's a nasty, horribly painful injury for anyone, but for a parrot who cannot fly and has no feathers on it's wings, not even for balance, this is devastating...

The bird shouldn't even be attempting to perch, stand, walk, etc., because not only is it horribly painful, but any little movement could actually tear the entire joint apart, as it has no stabilization right now at all, the ligaments are what make the knee solid...Plus, swelling needs to go down before any surgery can be done...that's a horrible injury, poor little guy...

I'd be checking out your friend possibly applying for just a normal credit card, or cards, and if that isn't a possibility then going to CareCredit...And then there is always starting a GoFundMe or something similar...

The U of Penn is probably the best Veterinary school in the country, and they may actually be interested in having their students see this case, as it's not common, so that's something to check out too.

Positive energy the way of Nellie and your friend, what a horrible situation....
 

LordTriggs

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Ouch, Ellen that definitely paints a picture of how severe this injury is.

Hopefully something can be done to help her, hopefully she can pull through. I was close to adopting a Grey (pippa) who had no use of her wings and stubs for legs and she does live a very happy mobile life, scrabbling around on her stumps so hope shouldn't be lost. Of course if Nellie will be in pain for the rest of her life or have such a poor quality of life it may be best to let her rest so to speak.

Sending some positive vibes Nellie's way and hoping her leg can be saved
 

ChristaNL

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I was afraid it would mean what Ellen said, but people always get things wrong.

(I've had people comming in complaining about crushed fingers - but no sign of any trauma visible, after a lot of questions asked it turned out they meant their toes! And they only bruised them...)

so be a decent human being and get this suffering bird to an expert first!
Then worry about the rest.
 

EllenD

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It's an awful injury, and a very weird on for anyone to have, but honestly with a bird who has no feathers on it's wings at all, it actually makes sense to me. As someone else mentioned above, Nellie uses her feet/legs for EVERYTHING, and all of her balance, stability, and strength comes from her feet and her ankle, knee, and hip joints, as she has literally no "tools" to use for balance/stability in her upper body. So my assumption is that she took a bad fall, and was probably trying to "right herself" using her leg, and the leg got caught underneath her. Then a horribly strong torsion-force was placed on the knee joint, which tore all of the ligaments of the knee, all the way around the knee: the ACL, PCL, MCL, LCL, and all of the smaller, accessory ligaments...Also, it's probable that the Patellar Tendon was also torn, if not the entire way through, most of the way through, as it's located right at the front of her leg and connects the knee cap to the Tibia about half way down...That's how much Nellie is using her legs for all of her movements and balance, even simply standing is all in her legs and feet...

Paints a pretty clear picture of how devastating Feather-Destructive Behaviors actually are for birds, who all rely on their wings for more than half of their movement and balance.

***The only other thing I can think of that the OP might have meant, or that their friend may have meant, is that rather than having an "Inverted" Knee, Nellie actually has a "Hyperextended Knee", which is not at all the same thing, and would be much less devastating, though still uncommon in birds, because they typically have their wings helping them balance (that's why these types of Ortho injuries are so uncommon in birds, because they usually have their wings assisting their balance, motion, stability, etc.)...It would be nice is we as people had wings, then we wouldn't have these kind of horrible knee injuries as often as we do, lol...

***If it's only a "Hyper-Extended Knee" and not actually an "Inverted Knee", then the prognosis is much better and the surgery isn't nearly as invasive, thought it's still not good or easy by any means...A "Hyper-Extended Knee" means that Nellie's entire knee-joint bent/folded in totally the wrong direction; imagine that your crouching down, but instead of your knee bending in the normal way so that your heels almost touch your butt when you're crouched, instead the back of your knee is almost touching your butt when you're crouched...OUCH! Basically in any Hyper-Extended joint (mainly the knee and the elbow) the joint folds entirely in the wrong direction, which as you can imagine completely stretches all of the ligaments and tendons, often results in bone damage/fractures (especially to the heads of the Tibia, Fibula, and Femur, and often results in stress-fractures/hairline fractures around the "necks" of each of these bones, simply from the torsion forces on them), and sometimes tears the tendons that are stretched the furthest in the wrong direction, but it also typically tears all of the cartilage inside the joint, and usually ruptures the entire bursa sack around the joint...But it's still a much less devastating injury than a completely inverted knee joint...So let's hope that maybe that's what has happened to Nellie, as the surgery is easier, the recovery time is much shorter, the costs will be much less, and the permanent damage is minimal, compared to an Inverted Knee...

Please keep us updated on how Nellie is doing and how your friend is making out...And if she does end-up coming up to Philly to the University of Pennsylvania Vet School with Nellie, if there is anything at all that I can do to help her out, please do not hesitate to PM me. I live a little over 3 hours from Philly, but am totally able and willing to help out in any way I can, I have a good vehicle, and I am very familiar with all of Philadelphia, especially the University City area, as growing-up my mom dated an guy who lived right downtown on the edge of University City and the U of Penn campus, so I spent plenty of time there. If I can give her any help at all I will. My own CAV also graduated from U of Penn vet school, so he may also have some suggestions to help throughout the process. Staying in downtown Philly isn't a good idea, though the University City area is very nice and much safer than the rest of downtown, but you definitely have to be careful where you stay, where you walk, etc. Philly is a dangerous city if you enter the wrong area (pathetically, Temple University, a fantastic medical university, which is not located anywhere near University City but rather in one of the worst neighborhoods in Philly, is literally surrounded/encased in barbwire)...
 
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ChristaNL

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Freshly torn ligaments, tendons etc. have a far better chance of being repaired just after the incident.
That is the other reason I went with: fix it first! plze!

The longer you wait the more difficult it is to do the actuall repairs (not just because of the swelling etc. ) so it will addd to time spend in surgery, needing anesthetics etc.etc. and also with the rehab.


I hope there is a way this bird can have a chance to heal well and if not, at least she wont be in pain anymore.
Accidents do happen, some you can prevent, some no-one ever saw comming.
 
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Scott

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Maybe I am in an unfavorable camp here to say this, but I firmly stand by euthanasia when things are complex or unrealistic. Always an option to keep in the back pocket, especially when finances are strapped and prognosis isn't favorable. Sometimes rest is the best gift.

An option for sure, but when the bird is long-lived and closely bonded, every possible alternative ought be examined. Next to worst-case scenario is possible amputation, provided the bird has good coordination and can use the beak for stability. AFAIK there are archived stories of single-legged parrots.
 
OP
lplummer52

lplummer52

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I called her yesterday and she was sobbing so much, she could hardly talk. She said she'd call today after she heard from the vet. She is mentally frail right now so soon after her husband passed away. She's considered putting the bird down, but would have to get permission first from Phoenix Landing. I think amputation is the way to go if she decides to try to save Nellie. Her husband used to say, "If it's not one thing, it's 20 others."
 
OP
lplummer52

lplummer52

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She is deathly afraid of driving on highways. I told her to ask Phoenix Landing to help with transportation.
 

ChristaNL

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I am going to stop posting now before I say something that will get me banned (again).
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