birds with object permanence

Any of your birds have 'object permanence'? For those who don't know, it means that the subject is aware that the item is still there even though he can't see it. I was taught in school that birds don't have that. Yet, there they go, after food or toy that has rolled under the furniture, out of sight.
I've even found my boy trying to get into the refrigerator where he knows the green grapes are; if I open the door, he'll climb up and go get them out of the package.

Cairo (ekkie) 100% understands object permanence. He knows where we hide his treats, even when we shut the door. He will try to take advantage if the door is slightly ajar. He understands that red plastic bags are where we keep bread.

However, he doesn't get the point of shuffling cups around to find the hidden treat underneath one. He's meticulous in that he wants to lift up all the cups because in the past we used to hide treats underneath them without discrimination. We'll have to teach him the point of the game first before he'll want to follow the rules

I would say my green cheek conure doesn't have a well-defined sense of object permanence. If I place the food under something that has dimension, like a cup, then she might hold on association that the treat is under the cup for 5 seconds before her brain jumps elsewhere. If I place it under a flat surface like a piece of paper, then it has entirely dissappeared from her conciousness without a trace.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that African Greys have a very well developed sense of object permanence. I once heard a theory that parrots with higher intelligence is often associated with living in a harsher, more food scarce environment. As African Greys most certainly live that way in the wild, I wouldn't be surprised to find their brains are geared to understanding object permanence.

Of course they do

nightfly said:

Any of your birds have 'object permanence'? For those who don't know, it means that the subject is aware that the item is still there even though he can't see it. I was taught in school that birds don't have that. Yet, there they go, after food or toy that has rolled under the furniture, out of sight.
I've even found my boy trying to get into the refrigerator where he knows the green grapes are; if I open the door, he'll climb up and go get them out of the package.

Click to expand...

Of course, Enzo knows if i have a snack in my pocket for example, she also knows the cupbaord that I keep all of the snacks and the cupboard I keep all of Enzo's toys that I currently do not have out. If I hide a snack, under a cushion for example she will continually watch the cushion and fly to me if she thinks im going to retrieve the snack.


dont believe all the school teaches

200% object permanence and lots of persistence to go with it.

DYH Amazon, our Julio will take it a bit further and has his own 'hiding places.' Most commonly for toys and special things, rarely food. And, as other have mentioned, he knows what foods are placed behind, which cabinet doors. The refrigerator is like the glory container as he will stand and look in upon the contents for as long as it is open.

Not sure about the Science reasoning as Amazons are from areas in the Americas that food is common near year around. They group travel to Clay Outcrop cliffs. Unleaf flat ground to review Clay flat on the ground. And, will individual or family to areas that provide a specific food source at a specific time of year.

My favorite is Object Identification - Self. Julio will look in a mirror and note that he has a feather out of position than will turn and correct it.

I believe Perjo understands this. I think she understands outside is a place I go in which sometimes she can observe me. I shoveled snow in front today and when I came in she was on top of cage leaning toward front window of house, I know she was watching me.

Timneh Definitely knows where all her treats are and whats what. She knows her grapes are on the upper level, and she knows her nuts are on the shelf below. Shes also figured out how to get into these darn see through bags. She will try to pry my hand open until I give up the treat or whatever object it is she wants. Shes darn strong too. She knows about the ice dispenser, she likes ice.

Affirming all the above... the Rb knows where all the good stuff is hidden. Unfortunately.

Some reading...
https://veipd.org/earlyintervention/2013/03/21/peek-a-boo-strategies-to-teach-object-permanence/

Grays, as a whole, are extraordinarily intelligent birds. Their grasp of abstract concepts such as object permanence, conservation of volume, etc. rival that of humans, and is thought by many experts to exceed those of any other animal save humans.

It seems that the intelligence of birds has been downplayed for hundreds of years (consider the pejorative term "birdbrain"), and has only recently begun to be explored. The larger parrots (as well as Corvids - crows, ravens, jays, etc.) are turning out to be stunningly bright. It's providing lots of universities with study material!

When we describe to friends some of Reno's (our African Gray) speech, they flat-out don't believe he's capable of creating full, grammatically correct sentences, made up on the spot, and specific to the circumstances of the moment.

Then, they visit & witness it for themselves.

They always leave with their mouths hanging open & their eyes like saucers, saying "I can't believe it! It's all TRUE!!!". Many have commented how he's definitely smarter than 4 or 5 year old children.

Interestingly, some university researchers have arrived at the same conclusion.

Chickadees, blue Jays, woodpeckers and more all use food cache , they have no problems remembering all the places they store food. Foxes , chipmunk, squirrels, all store food as well... So object permanence may not be as rare as we think?? My dog has no problems remembering the hiding place of his favorite toys.

I am permanently losing my car keys.....

I also wonder if cache hiding isn't neccessarily an instance of object permanence. How do we know that the animal knows its that SPECIFIC item they hid there, and not a generalization that food (as a general concept) was hidden there. Much of scientific research is up to debate on definitions, so I wonder if that's the reason it's not considered a popular concept within other animal groups.

Still, you can't argue that parrots are one smart little bunch of cookies ! If I had anything more intelligent than a Green Cheek Conure, our household would have devolved into pure chaos by now.

bigfellasdad said:

I am permanently losing my car keys.....

Click to expand...

Me too!!!!!!! Plus I forget what's in the fridge all the time

Also animals, and birds are getting more respect from scientist all the time for their intelligence. There is an article, Are you Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals are?

One other thing vaguely related, if I have guests and Enzo is out and about, she knows exactly where everybody is and will fly to my son if i say lets go see Max. She also stalks on the the bannister if Kelly is in the bath, waiting for her to come out..