Conure's aggression worse every day. Desperate for help.

GFGC

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Hey everyone. I posted a little while back about my green cheeked conure's biting/lack of tolerance for touching and hands got some good responses. In short, he was an angel when he first came home. He stepped up nicely and only gave little nibbles. He was cuddly and gentle for two days. I have had him a little over a month now. We were told he was "8 weeks old" and "12 weeks old" by the two owners of the bird store we got him from, so we will assume he is between 3 and 5 months old.

Since then, I have bought the BirdTricks.com videos and watched them all. I bought the Parrot Wizard's book. I watch tons of videos and research bird behavior and taming. He literally takes up my entire day, which would be fine if he was still friendly. I don't react to my bird's bites. Instead, I try to switch gears and get his mind on tricks and reward his positive behavior. He's very smart. He learned how to wave hello in 24 hours. He can also spin on command and is target and click trained. He's a little genius.

He is also ruining my life.

He simply WILL NOT STOP biting. He had a brief period of a few days where he seemed to be improving, and since then, with no changes made to his life or environment, it's been a drastic downhill slide.

On top of finger and hand biting, recently he has decided that he now enjoys flying onto my shoulders and biting all around my neck, HARD. Attempts at getting him to step up or target off of my shoulder sometimes works and other times results in more screams and more hard bites, now with TWISTING. I can't even describe how hard it is to sit there and not react while I reach for my chopstick and the skin on the back of my neck is being pinched and twisted, but I do as they say and remain quiet and calm. Ignoring his bad behavior and rewarding the good. He is not "allowed" on my shoulders, and previously he would nicely step up on my finger to be lowered back down to his playground where he would hop off and receive a treat. Now he bites and resists, and his biting has become progressively harder and more enthusiastic as the days have gone by to the point where he consistently tears skin and draws blood.

The only time I could actually handle him physically was after his bath. He would be wet and pathetic and allow me to touch and pet him. A few times he fell asleep while I was doing so. He definitely is not afraid of me. As soon as he was dry though, forget about it. He has recently also started refusing his bath time, so even the short quality time he allowed me to spend with him when he was wet has been completely eliminated. I have to admit that I am losing my ability to remain optimistic about this. I wake up and think "Ok, it's a new day. A new opportunity for better interactions. Maybe he just had a bad day" and then he has a worse one.

I currently have a pet that I am afraid of and that will beg to come out and spend time biting me. When on my finger he will notice wounds he has already given me and re-bite and chew them, pulling off my skin and making me bleed all over again. Any time I am working around him I have to quickly do whatever it is I have to do before he is able to come over and aggressively chew my fingers.

He still steps up nicely, but once he is on the finger he will dig his beak into my cuticle or put my whole finger tip in his mouth and chew and twist. My hands don't take him to bad places. He goes to his playground or his training perch (in a different room than his cage), both places where he plays happily and gets rewards. There aren't any negative connotations surrounding my hands.

I bought the DVDs. I watch the videos and bought the books. I did a ton of research before I brought him home. I am an educated, respectful person. I have had cats, a dog, turtles, lizards, a ferret, snakes and not ONE of these animals has ever bitten me to the extent that my bird has. I follow the instructions and listen to advice from those who know best. I try so hard to give my bird an environment that facilitates him behaving, but I am failing. I am willing to put in the time he needs from me, and I have been, but it's not resulted in anything remotely positive aside from him learning tricks.

I keep thinking "Ok, let me assess WHY he may have just done that. Did he want food or something? Did he notice something weird? What am I doing that is making him want to bite?" I don't know. I'd say it's a seemingly "random" occurrence, but it's becoming pretty predictable: interact with the bird, and you're going to get torn up.

It doesn't help that I see so many photos and testimonials from people who have little birds that just love to play and cuddle and aren't always chomping their owners. I follow all the rules I am supposed to when it comes to this little guy, to the point that it annoys my girlfriend at how I am when it comes to not reinforcing bad behavior like screaming and biting (she thinks its adorable when he screams in his cage and I've reminded her not not give him attention when he does it, to her dismay). I don't know what to do. The worse he gets, the less time I spend with him, but what am I supposed to do? He doesn't seem anything like the birds I see on YouTube or in photos people share. I am feeling pretty lost here, feeling like I am letting down my bird and I can't figure out what to do.:confused::confused:
 

Birdman666

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Sep 18, 2013
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Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
First of all, I'm not big on either of the sources you're using...

Secondly, you're overthinking it.

The bird was never trained not to bite, apparently. So, you're starting from scratch. It's nothing personal. There's no "wrong" here.

THE BIRD DOESN'T NECESSARILY KNOW THE RULES. He never read that book, wizard or no wizard.

Suggestion:

If you know he's going to bite once he steps up, have you used the two fingers on the beak technique? Grab his beak and give the command "No biting" or "Knock it off."

Is he clipped? If he's clipped, when he goes to bite, do you immediately drop him to the floor? And he only steps up if he steps up nice?

Have you tried that "old school" technique?

Or are you allowing him to bite you?

And doing the "ignore the bites" thing (that is REALLY BAD ADVICE!) and the bird doesn't get feedback he needs to know what he is doing something wrong?
 
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GFGC

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All of the "expert advice" explains so thoroughly that birds don't understand punishment the way we assume they do, so I have been ignoring his bad traits and rewarding his good ones. He already came to me not wanting to be pet or touched, which made me sad, so I have been doing my best not to instill more hand hatred in him, although it honestly doesn't seem to be working. Some people recommend grabbing them and laying them on their back and saying "NO BITING" while touching their beak or something.

Part of the "ignore the bites" idea appealed to me because he already seemed to dislike being touched. I feel that, taking in all I have learned, that to grab him or something after he bites will only make him associate hands wither further negativity. If I grab or touch him, he bites, so there seems to be no escape from him just chewing me up. I am not sure how to discipline his biting while simultaneously showing him that my hands are not his enemy.

Yes, he is clipped, but he still flies decently (albeit with great flapping effort). As a result, unless he is soaked, a drop to the floor tends to result in a flight to the kitchen counter or my shoulder, neither of which I want to reinforce.

Would you mind telling me why you aren't fans of the sources I mentioned and possibly provide some alternatives?
 
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Birdman666

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Sep 18, 2013
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Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
Well, I'm no expert...









And, yeah, those are mine...

So, I'm not the first one to observe that sometimes the so called experts are FULL OF ---- something. LAST TIME I CHECKED THERE WAS NO PH.D. IN PARROT TRAINING. THESE ARE "SELF-APPOINTED" EXPERTS OFTEN REHASHING A LOT OF THE SAME OLD NONSENSE... AND MAKING MONEY OFF PEOPLE IN THE PROCESS.

It's not punishment, per se.

It's prevention. It's behavior modification.

You physically prevent the bird by biting you, by restraining his beak when he goes to do it.

You drop the bird to the floor. He's gonna want off the floor. Fine. You can come up, when you come up without biting.

You're not punishing, you're teaching. Biting is not good.

If the bird is allowed to bite you, with no negative consequences, then he thinks it's okay, and will continue to do it.

Every single time you allow him to do that, you reinforce that it is okay to bite. i.e. you are actually TEACHING HIM to bite. Which is why the behavior is getting progressively worse!
 
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GFGC

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At this point I'm willing to try anything. I know there is no PHD in parrot behavioral sciences, but when you see people with such amazingly well-trained animals, you take notice.

Did you have similar problems with your birds?
 

Birdman666

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Sep 18, 2013
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San Antonio, TX
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Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
Let's go back to natural bird behaviors...

One bird doesn't just sit there and let the other bird bite them. They react to prevent it! And THAT is what we are doing here...

When one bird, comes up to another bird, and bites him, does the other bird just sit there and not react to it?! Or is there an immediate and rather dire response...

Like I'm going to knock you off the perch, chase you out of my territory, and possibly, if it's a large too, or a large macaw who has been offended...

YOU'RE DEAD MEAT SMALLER BIRD!

Do it once, they get THAT reaction, and they NEVER DO IT AGAIN...

You've taught the bird that biting is okay, now he has to "unlearn" it.
 
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Birdman666

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Sep 18, 2013
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San Antonio, TX
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Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
At this point I'm willing to try anything. I know there is no PHD in parrot behavioral sciences, but when you see people with such amazingly well-trained animals, you take notice.

Did you have similar problems with your birds?

THE JENDAY AND THE DUSKY CONURE WERE BOTH RESCUE BIRDS THAT HAD EVILED THEIR WAY OUT OF FOUR PRIOR HOMES BEFORE I GOT THEM...

They were other people's throwaways, and had A TON of bad habits that needed to be corrected. Re-Training them took about four months.

The dusky conure once put his beak CLEAN THROUGH my finger, lengthwise, as in point of the beak sticking out the other side...

So, yeah, he was a biter.

WAS!
 
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GFGC

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I'll give some "punishment" a shot and see if things improve. I just want him to be a good bird and want what's best for him.
 

Birdman666

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Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
I also suggest you read my bite pressure training post. I think it's in the macaw section, but it might be in training. Do a search.

Conures are basically just shrunken macaws. The natural behaviors are very close, and they are a closely related species.

I've said it a million times the "ignore the bites" advice just gets people bit...
 

Birdman666

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Sep 18, 2013
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Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
I'll give some "punishment" a shot and see if things improve. I just want him to be a good bird and want what's best for him.

It's NOT punishment.

YOU DON'T PUNISH. You simply prevent him from latching onto you.

It's a proactive, teaching approach.

REACT. LET THE BIRD KNOW YOU WILL REACT. Take immediate steps to prevent or reduce the behaviors. THEN ALL IS IMMEDIATELY FORGIVEN THE SECOND HE STOPS, AND HE GETS PRAISED AND TREATS FOR NOT DOING IT... THAT IS THE POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT PART....

In fact, I think the best parts of the Parrot Wizard's stuff, looks amazingly similar (almost verbatum) to Tani Robar's stuff, which was out before this guy was even born, I think.

Tani's good. That's the stuff that works!
 
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RavensGryf

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http://www.parrotforums.com/training/48616-types-biting-behavior-mods.html I believe this is the link Mark is talking about ;).

I agree with his techniques too. Birds in the wild don't just sit there and ignore each other's bites and attempts at manipulation. When the "experts" say don't react, I believe it is because some birds, (and I think some species seem to be more prone) think it's amusing when a human puts out a big reaction, therefore making them want to do it more. That's a generalization though, and I don't find that is the case with all birds. At times I'll admit overreacting with my birds (hey I'm only human), and trust me, they're smart enough to know the difference between my displeasure and praise.

Also... I think how easily you can stop biting depends on the reason for the biting. Hormonal biting is more fueled by instinct rather than just casually seeing what they can get away with.

Mark has a ton of experience with rehabbing and training, and has many other great posts as well. Good luck!
 

JerseyWendy

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At this point I'm willing to try anything. I know there is no PHD in parrot behavioral sciences, but when you see people with such amazingly well-trained animals, you take notice.

Did you have similar problems with your birds?

That's exactly how they get folks to open their wallets. ;)
 

Birdman666

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Sep 18, 2013
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San Antonio, TX
Parrots
Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
This bird is still a baby. It's NOT hormonal.

I'm pretty sure he was accidentally positively reinforcing the biting... so the bird kept doing it.

It's pretty easy to accidentally teach a bird to bite or to scream.
 

Birdman666

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Sep 18, 2013
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San Antonio, TX
Parrots
Presently have six Greenwing Macaw (17 yo), Red Fronted Macaw (12 yo), Red Lored Amazon (17 y.o.), Lilac Crowned Amazon (about 43 y.o.) and a Congo African Grey (11 y.o.)
Panama Amazon (1 Y.O.)
At this point I'm willing to try anything. I know there is no PHD in parrot behavioral sciences, but when you see people with such amazingly well-trained animals, you take notice.

Did you have similar problems with your birds?

That's exactly how they get folks to open their wallets. ;)

And half the stuff, is stuff that's been on the internet for years.

And the other half is... well... let's just say I disagree.
 

RavensGryf

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English Budgie
This bird is still a baby. It's NOT hormonal.

I'm pretty sure he was accidentally positively reinforcing the biting... so the bird kept doing it.

It's pretty easy to accidentally teach a bird to bite or to scream.

Duh, it was the first paragraph saying the age lol. I swear I read the rest of it! :eek:.. Also was just saying as example for others, where 'a bird' might be hormonal ;).
 
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LoveMyConlan

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Everyone here is AMAZING with advice. My GCC, Conlan, came from a pet store at 4 months old. Very anti-social, constantly biting and drawing blood, super territorial,, ect. After 3 months I was THIS close to taking her back. Seriously, it was like I summoned a demon from the last circle of hell. I was terrified and had no idea what to do next. I wanted a companion, not a show piece.

But everyone here have me ideas and they, over time, have worked! Is she a cuddle bug? Not by any means, but the biting has dramatically decreased, outside the cage only however. What I did, as told, was TIME OUT! Birds are no different from children. Conlan HATES being in the floor. So any time she would bite I say a firm No! And do a sudden drop off my arm or hand. As she's clipped she went straight to the floor and I walked away a free steps (keeping her in sight and ONLY doing this in a closed room alone). Don't raise you voice. She soon realized that biting meant a short trip to lonely land.
She is not allowed on my shoulder, head, glasses, or upper arm. Hand or wrist and that is it! Foods your bird LOVES are great motivators. You can even purchase a small T stand for the floor so she's more noticeable. That T stand can become her time out. I've also gently grabbed her break between my fingers as a 'im not scared of this part of you' thing. And her cage is on a table that is below eye level even if she's at the top.

Don't give up on your little one. It will take time but you can become top bird. Time outs worked for me the best but each bird is different. Wishing you luck!!
 
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GFGC

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I just had a session with him on his playground and every time he bit me i would grab his little beak say "NO." I'm sure I won't know if this is working properly for some time, but at the very least it makes me feel like I have a little more say in the relationship instead of just taking it and feeling depressed. He was allowing me to touch him more than I have in some time, probably because after the biting did nothing he was just like "Ugh, fine. Under the wing? Whatever." I was able to give him scratches, stopping frequently with my hand next to him so that he would have to "ask" for more by rubbing his head on my hand.

He did jump up to my shoulder at one point and bit the "step up finger" to the extent that I eventually just grabbed him and put him back on the perch. He bit my hand on the way down, of course, but once he was on the perch I made him do a few tricks. He got some treats and then he went back into his cage.

The put-him-on-the-floor method isn't always the easiest since sometimes he is on a perch and his little feet have it in a death grip. I don't want to cause any injury in that case.

It's pretty shady to think that BirdTricks.com might make money off of possibly preventing bird owners from stopping biting and therefore selling more stuff. I do know that I have gotten a lot of emails since my initial purchase asking me to buy more more more. I know birds don't feel "shame," but they are definitely smart enough to know to stop doing what makes them uncomfortable or else they would all be extinct.

Thank you for the advice so far, everyone. I really hope this turns Charlie (yeah, I didn't know that EVERY SINGLE BIRD was named Charlie when I decided to name him...) around and makes him a better companion. The nicer he is the more time he can spend with me, and that's all I really want.

Am I approaching this correctly so far?
 

Flboy

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You so want to follow Birdman's advice! Also start getting the little guy to step up on a stick to move him around. If I could get Bongo the Barbarian to stop drawing blood, anything is possible! Ignore is wrong route for sure!
 

Kyoto

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What has worked for me is taking away what the bird wants when he behaves badly. You want to sit on me? But you also want to chew my fingers? No, you go on your play stand.

You want scratches, but you also want to bite me? No scratches, go to your play stand.

It isn't perfect, but by treating the things the bird wants as rewards or privilege it has allowed me to take control of my conure's behaviour ( for the most part).

There are times I get nipped because i am not understanding what Kyo wants. Bite pressure training as bird man has suggested is what is helping him to communicate with me better without harming me in the process. I am one to tolerate beaking behaviour (gentle touching and holding with the beak) and I am happy to say my conure knows the difference between what is acceptable and what isn't.

There are days that Kyo is amazing, and there are days that I think I've skrewed everything up and he hates me. It's just how he is. But prevention is definitely the best method in my opinion. Learn what makes your bird bite, and prevent it from happening in the first place. Kyo may bite me when he gets tired at night. So I have a set bed time for him, knowing if he's up too late he'll get nippy. I haven't gotten bit at night since.

I know he gets nippy if I let him play with my keyboard on my computer, so he doesn't get to play with it.

You are getting great advice from the people who saved my relationship with my conure. I hope my input helps as well. I had a little pinky brat that would leave my hands scarred with cuts 3 months ago, and he is now the biggest cuddle bug you could imagine (with me, the husband is still a work in progress heh).
 
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GFGC

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Thank you so much, everyone. I will keep working on my little dude and let you know how things progress.
 

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