Sun Conure sick/advice needed

[cleosmom]

Hi,

I have a two sun conures, one male(12) and one female(15), and 3 budgies.
The two sun conures share a cage. I've had the male since he was a baby and I adopted the female 8 years ago. Around 5 years ago she started laying eggs that weren't fertilized. She hasn't laid an egg for almost a year and a half and the last time she only laid one egg. I do my best to discourage her egg laying.
Over the last month or so I noticed she seems tired more often and last week she seemed sick when I came home from work. She was a little fluffed-up and sitting on her perch with her eyes closed and her wings twitching. I noticed a few times previously she was regurgitating randomly and a few times her right leg seemed paralyzed and then went back to normal--these symptoms didn't happen at the same time. I took her to an avian vet for an emergency visit last Saturday(July 9th) night. The vet looked her over, did a gram stain, and x-rays. He said she had a bit of yeast on the gram stain, but not that bad. The x-rays showed her intestines are swollen and maybe notched in on part. I don't remember everything he said. I did get the notes, but it didn't say exactly what the x-ray found. He wanted to give me 3 medicines. One for infection, one for yeast, and one for regurgitation. I didn't take the one for regurgitation as it seemed excessive. I can give specific names of medications, but don't have that in front of me. So she seems a little better, but I still see her regurgitating. She has a hard time with her morning poop, that's been off and on for awhile. She does like sweets and her first mom fed her a lot of sun flower seeds. The vet note did say she might not get better. I'm not sure what infection she has or what kind of yeast she has. She's been eating okay. I noticed too that her poops were coming out it little balls sometimes.
I wonder if I should try to get more info and possibly more medicine or take the best care of her I can knowing she is chronically ill.
Thanks for your help.

 

[EllenD]

Welcome to the community...Sorry that it's under such dire circumstances...

The first thing that is a red-flag to me is that this vet was an "emergency visit" on a Saturday night, so I'm assuming that this was at either a 24/7 animal hospital or some kind of "exotics" clinic...So my first big, huge question for you is was this a Certified Avian Specialist, or was this an "Exotics Vet"? There is a massive difference, and from what you've described that this vet did/said, it doesn't at all sound to me like they were an actual CAV...

It's good that he did a Fecal Culture, however, he found only Yeast (Fungal Infection) in her GI Tract, which can actually make them very ill and cause many, if not all of the symptoms that she's been displaying....However, this vet also prescribed her an Antibiotic (I'm assuming that's what you mean by a "medicine for infection")...an Antibiotic is a medicine only for a Bacterial Infection, not a Fungal Infection...And he has absolutely no reason to assume that she has a Bacterial Infection as of right now...What's much worse is that they did confirm that she has a Fungal Infection, and though they prescribed an Anti-Fungal Medication (I'd like to know exactly what med she was given for the Fungal Infection), putting her on an Antibiotic when they did not diagnose a Bacterial Infection but they did positively diagnose a Fungal Infection is very counterproductive...The Antibiotic can actually end-up making the Yeast/Fungal Infection much, much worse, as Antibiotics kill-off all Bacteria present in her GI Tract, including the "good" or healthy Bacteria, which is normally responsible for keeping Fungi/Yeast in their GI Tracts at-bay...So you see the problem with this...It's one thing if they had identified an abnormal Bacteria present in the Fecal Culture, or an abnormally-high Bacterial Count, but they didn't find anything of the sort...

So, assuming that this Vet simply prescribed her an Antibiotic "Just in case" or "As a precautionary measure" (and assuming it was probably just Baytril/Enrofloxacin), I'd not be giving her the Antibiotic at all, only the Anti-Fungal medicine...And did he mention anything to you about also giving her a Probiotic along with the Anti-Fungal medicine? How about a medication like Metacam for the swelling in her GI Tract? Or a Steroid for the swelling?

Any Yeast present in their GI Tract can make them feel crummy, but if her intestines are actually inflamed and there is no sign of any Bacterial infection and just the Yeast, then she should have been put on only the Anti-Fungal, along with an Anti-Inflammatory like Metacam to decrease the swelling to start off with, possibly a Steroid as well, depending on how bad the swelling is, and on what her blood-work looks like, which is my next question...Did he mention blood work? At her age and with the symptoms that she's exhibiting, it's a really good idea to get routine blood-work done to not only check her WBC count to see how bad the overall-infection is, or if there is another, undiagnosed infection that he didn't find, but also to check the function of both her liver (to rule-out Fatty Liver Disease based on her prior diet) and her kidney function, along with checking her RBC count to make sure that she's not at all anemic, because if she is then that is indicative of a much larger problem or a much larger infection...

All-in-all I'd say that the Fungal Infection is certainly a big part of the problem, but there may very well be something else going on, and I would be looking to get her to a very experienced, Certified Avian Vet ASAP. You can have her Fecal Culture results and the X-Rays sent right over to whichever vet you take her to, and I'm going to just guess that the first thing that a CAV will do is blood-work to get a look at the whole-picture...We can help you find an actual CAV based on where you live...Like I said, there is a huge difference between a CAV and an "Exotics" Vet...

The fact that this vet was comfortable telling you that "she might not recover", when she's only a 15 year -old Sun Conure is another huge red-flag to me, that makes absolutely no sense to me at all, as they only diagnosed her with a Fungal Infection in her GI Tract and an inflamed GI Tract...So why would they say that to you? And why would they feel comfortable saying that to you? It sounds like they had no idea at all what was going on or what to do to find out what was going on, and this is all the more reason to find her an experienced CAV immediately. She should have lots and lots of life left, and a simple fungal infection should not be at all a threat to her life at this point...

Also, consider buying a Probiotic to start giving to her daily along with the prescription Antibiotic, either Bene Bac or Qwiko Avian Probiotic Powder, both of which you can buy at any Petco...This will help to replenish her healthy, normal bacteria throughout the GI Tract, which will help to fight-off the Yeast Infection....

 

[EllenD]

Oh, by the way...Do you know the difference between "Regurgitating" and "Vomiting" in birds? It's not clear to me whether or not she is "Vomiting" from illness (usually liquid comes-up and in larger amounts), or she is actually "Regurgitating" from hormonal behavior (usually only small bits of solids come-up, usually white in color)...Regurgitation is not related to illness at all, but rather hormonal behavior, like when they want to feed each other, or feed you...Vomiting in birds is very indicative of severe illness, and is very traumatic for them, and is very distinguishable from Regurgitation...If this vet did not explain this to you, then they definitely know very little about birds...

I don't know what you mean when you say that you "know she's chronically ill"...What do you mean by "she's chronically ill"?

 

[GaleriaGila]

Ellen is much more detailed and systematic in her response than I am (thanks, Ellen)... I'm just leaping to the Certified Avian Vet issue!
Here's a start.
https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803
Good for you for reaching out, and caring!

 

[bingbing]

Ellen I have read many of your responses and just want too thank you for your knowledge here and the helpful information you have given and continue to give is amazing for a public forum too have a person who cares so much too give such detailed responses too so many bird lovers Thank You.

 

[EllenD]

Ellen is much more detailed and systematic in her response than I am (thanks, Ellen)... I'm just leaping to the Certified Avian Vet issue!
Here's a start.
https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803
Good for you for reaching out, and caring!

LOL Gail, this is actually the most important point that needs to be made!!! Huge difference between a CAV who only deals with birds and any other vet...I'm really confused about the comment that "she might not recover", based on what little he found going-on...I can't imagine a vet saying that to a bird owner based on what he found, that must have been scary, and way too early, in my opinion...

 

[EllenD]

Ellen I have read many of your responses and just want too thank you for your knowledge here and the helpful information you have given and continue to give is amazing for a public forum too have a person who cares so much too give such detailed responses too so many bird lovers Thank You.

Well, honestly, I have found that in a lot of cases, Vets (and human doctors too, sadly) don't explain anything at all to people, they just given them medications, whether they need them or not, and then say things like this Vet did as they left...So any of us that have medical experience, breeding experience, etc. can sometimes help people to understand not only what is going on, but also why...which I think is very important.

Thanks very much for your comment, that was very nice of you to say...

 

[cleosmom]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond and for such great information.
This is what she’s taking metronidazole and terbinafine
The vet also wanted to give metoclopramide for regurgitation
He said the yeast wasn’t that bad on the gram stain. The results say 2% non budding
Amount moderate
Vets note says discussed treating for GI upset/imbalance and mild yeast overgrowth.
Discussed could be more serious underlying disease and p may not improve.
So that’s why I said chronic illness. Also my mom died this year so maybe I am thinking the worst of everything.
I live near Detroit if anyone can recommend a good avian vet near me.
Whack Whack (my sick bird) seemed to be doing pretty well this evening.
Concerning the regurgitation, it was definitely regurgitation and not vomiting.
I’ve never seen a bird vomit. It’s not normal for her to randomly regurgitate like
I saw her doing recently. She usually regurgitates on car trips a lot and this wasn’t
as bad. What about the paralyzed leg problem? I haven’t seen it happen this week.
Do you think I should stop giving her the medicine?
Thanks again. Karen

 

[ChristaNL]

Ehm...basing this on human medicine : *never* stop in the middle of a course of antibiotics unless absolutely necessary (side effects) -> you've started an assault (misplaced or not) at bacteria and you do not want any survivors.
That is how you get MRSA etc., bacteria who are antibiotics-proof and could cause huge problems in the future for your bird (or anyone elses).

Get a real CAV/second opinion and get the meds sorted with them.

The probiotica seems like a solid idea- it's something most vets will overlook/ forget about. (Just like most human doctors ...)

 

[EllenD]

Ehm...basing this on human medicine : *never* stop in the middle of a course of antibiotics unless absolutely necessary (side effects) -> you've started an assault (misplaced or not) at bacteria and you do not want any survivors.
That is how you get MRSA etc., bacteria who are antibiotics-proof and could cause huge problems in the future for your bird (or anyone elses).

Get a real CAV/second opinion and get the meds sorted with them.

The probiotica seems like a solid idea- it's something most vets will overlook/ forget about. (Just like most human doctors ...)

Okay, she was not given an Antibiotic at all, both of those medications are Anti-Fungal meds, so don't worry about quitting either of them...However, I will respectfully disagree with ChristaNL above, as this bird was not ever diagnosed with any Bacteria after cultures were taken, but Fungi was diagnosed, so not only is there no need at all for Antibiotics, but they would actually be counterproductive and make the Fungal Infection worse, especially when the bird is not on a Probiotic either...And no harm in stopping an Antibiotic in this case, as there is no Bacterial Infection...

If the vet prescribed both those Anti-Fungal meds, then he must have thought the Yeast was pretty bad (probably based on the swelling in the GI Tract), so continue both meds until you finish the course given, and I would also still add the Probiotic once daily ASAP, it will also help with the discomfort/swelling she is having...

If she hasn't been showing any "paralysis" in her leg recently, my guess is actually that it wasn't "paralysis" at all, but rather a physical reaction to the Fungal Infection, or rather the inflammation in her GI Tract, more-so to the discomfort/pain she was having due to it...That's why I'm wondering why he didn't also prescribe Metacam for the inflammation and a steroid, but if she's doing better then that means the meds are working, so that's good...Add the probiotic, and then try your best to get her to a CAV for a follow-up ASAP...

I don't believe she has any "chronic disease", nor that she's not going to get better...Even though he saw no "budding-yeast" on a gram-stain, that doesn't mean that she hasn't had this Fungal infection for some time now and has been hiding the signs/symptoms, as they do...The severe swelling and inflammation is indicative of a long-time infection, and the body does fight-off Fungal Infections (I'm so glad he did not prescribe any Antibiotic, as that probably would have made things much worse)...

How long a course is she taking of both Anti-Fungal medication?

 

[EllenD]

Just to add something as an explanation....I cannot tell you how many birds/reptiles I've seen mistakenly prescribed an Antibiotic when they had no bacterial infection at all, but rather a fungal infection, and even if they were given both meds, the totally unnecessary antibiotic ends-up making them much, much worse, and in a lot of cases kills them...So my suggestion to stop any Antibiotic until she got the bird to a CAV tomorrow was based on a ton of experience in this...unfortunately it's not at all uncommon for that to happen...Fortunately this Vet actually did the right thing (the fact that he actually did a Fecal Culture puts him ahead of most Exotics vets, truly)...I think that everything is going to be fine, but again, follow-up with a CAV, as I still don't have a clue why that vet said what he said, based on a simple Fungal infection that should clear-up with the meds prescribed and probiotic treatments...Anyway, I'm not a CAV, which is why that was the first thing that I suggested that you make sure that you do, if that vet wasn't a CAV...They may have been, I don't know, but you must make sure...and even if they were, I would absolutely, if it was my bird, get an immediate second-opinion, as I just really don't understand or like how this vet left things with you...and a culture/gram-stain of the crop would possibly give an explanation to the chronic-regurgitation and make this whole thing seem less-dire to you...I don't at all think it is dire, birds often get GI fungal-infections that spread throughout to or from the crop, and honestly even the little bit of improvement she is showing already just from a couple days of Anti-fungal meds is a very good sign...

BTW, I'd keep her on the Probiotic once daily for a week after she finishes both Anti-Fungal meds, just to ensure that her healthy gut-flora is replenished, and also to continue to ease the GI inflammations/discomfort..

 

[EllenD]

Something I totally forgot, about the regurgitation...It's extremely likely that the yeast either spread to her crop through the GI Tract, based on the severe swelling througout, or that the infection actually started in the crop/mouth/throat and spread throughout the GI Tract. That would account for her regurgitating constantly, as it probably feels as though she has something inside of her crop, which she very well may, yeast...

I would be sure to mention this to the CAV that you take her to, as she will most-likely do a crop-flush and then culture the washings that come out to see if this is the case...The oral Probiotic can help tremendously with this if it's the problem...I'd highly suggest the Bene-Bac over the powder probiotic if this is the case, and be sure to give it daily, and at any time, as it will not interfere with the antifungal meds she is on (probiotics do interfere with antibiotics, but she's not on one, so it's fine to give her the meds and the Bene-Bac at the same time)....

 

[MonicaMc]

Often times, when birds "regurgitate" in a car, it's actually vomiting and the bird has motion sickness. The difference is in whether or not it's controlled or uncontrolled regurgitation. Controlled, they'll usually feed something or re-eat what they regurgitated up. With vomiting, they typically shake their head and the food goes flying! (not always, but usually)


As soon as your conure gets the all clear on the gram stain, she needs blood work! She might have liver or kidney failure (or something else) and bloodwork may help to pinpoint the cause. Enlarged organs can press up against a nerve that goes to the legs and cause partial/complete paralysis.

 

[cleosmom]

Hi,

Thanks again for your help with this issue.

I took Whack Whack to a CAV on Saturday. Honestly, I'm not sure the CAVs in my area are that good. I have been to this vet before recently with a budgie who can't fly well and the CAV said the budgie didn't want to fly but I have seen this budgie try to fly and not be able to. This CAV only works part-time. Another nearly CAV gets bad reviews online. A third is at the same clinic that I took her to for the urgent care visit on the 7th. The vet I saw on the 7th is not on the CAV list, but works at the clinic where they have a CAV. There are some other CAVs on the list that are a little further away.
So the CAV did another gram-stain, she took blood, and examined Whack Whack. Whack Whack was doing better, so they sent out for the blood work (they can do it in house but can't test for as much and is more expensive I was told), but the results won't be ready until today. The CAV won't be in office to look at the blood work until 1pm EST.
This morning WHack Whack was not so good after her morning poop. Again with the leg paralysis and her head bobbing like regurgitation with nothing really coming out. Later she seemed okay was eating and drinking water.
I forgot to mention the first vet and CAV both said she has a HEART MURMUR.
So according to the internet and the CAV the metronidazole is an antibiotic. The CAV said this antibiotic only works in the GI tract. The CAV said the gram-stain showed less good bacteria and budding yeast. She also found something she couldn't identify. She wanted to give another antibiotic in case it's a UTI. I wanted to wait for blood work results. And for her to possibly identify what she was seeing.
Bene bac is not available near me. I called around. My local bird store suggested yogurt. I did order bene bac online and it should be here today. CAV said okay to give it to her.
It's not easy to give Whack Whack medication. Maybe it doesn't all go in. Also I have already spent close to $600. I need to be careful to keep cost down as much as possible.
I am worried my other sun might get sick too.
Oh and the first vet did do a swab of her beak, but the CAV didn't.
I'm trying to get written results from the CAV.
So on the notes from the first vet it says Choanal and Cloacal for gram stain. Is Choanal the butt and Cloacal the beak? Because Choanal says 0 yeast.
Thanks again for your help.

 

[MonicaMc]

Cloacal = cloaca = butt

There might be meds that could help the heart, although I'm not sure. Any updates on the results?

 

[cleosmom]

Hi

I have an appointment to take her to Dr. Orosz in Toledo tomorrow morning. This is the only avian vet who would do an echo-cardiogram. The CAV I saw referred me to her. Apparently there is no one in Michigan who does this.
The CAV didn't send me the notes on the blood work, but from what I remember the WBC weren't good, protein was low, and calcium a tad low. Liver was good. I have all the test results, x-rays, etc sent to the dr. in Toledo.
The CAV said she was most worried about her heart. There are meds for the heart, so I hope it's not to late for her to recover from the health issues she's having.
She still seems sick in the mornings before I go to work, but better in the evenings when I get home. I haven't seen the leg paralysis any more this week, but I have to go to work so I'm not there all the time.
The CAV did prescribe another antibiotic. I tried giving Whack Whack the Bene Bac but she didn't like it.
The CAV said I might be able to board her in Toledo to make sure she gets the meds she needs. Although if it's forever heart meds, I'll have to be able to give them to her.
Anyway the doc will do a gram stain too so we can find out how the yeast is doing.
Thanks for asking for an update.

 

[MonicaMc]

I've only ever heard amazing things about "Dr O", so I'd say you are in good hands! I hope you are able to get some answers!

 

[Aratingettar]

I wish prompt recovery for your WhackWhack. I'm glad she'll be examined by a reputable CAV. All the best to you both!

 

[Jolene7136]

If anything like humans, I think the low calcium can be from the heart problem. Also I remember when I had pre-eclampsia while pregnant they checked protein content and it had some relation to blood pressure. Of course this could be very different in birds.

Many heart medications have generics available, if it is something that can be helped through medication it will likely be a low cost for the medication.

 

[cleosmom]

Whack Whack is doing a little better since her visit with Dr. O on Friday.

The doctor saw many things on the x-ray that neither the emergency vet nor the CAV saw.
Her reading of the x-rays was so different that I thought maybe the x-rays got mixed up somehow, but probably not. Basically she saw a lot wrong with Whack Whack on the x-rays--enlarged heart, lung congestion, liver enlarged, kidney has increased opacity, but the GI tract looks fine. The gram stain showed no yeast, but bad bacteria. Dr. O even checked her blood pressure which was elevated. Since Whack Whack was not looking so good at the visit, the doctor decided to put off the echocardiogram.
The doctor prescribed 6 new meds and told me to stop the other meds. We got clavamox for the antibiotic, nystatin for potential yeast, visbiome for the probiotic, a special cardiac formula, sildenafil and enalapril. It's a lot and the antibiotic and anti fugal are much higher doses than before.
Saturday Whack Whack acted sick all day and the seemed almost normal yesterday. Today she was pretty good but had an episode in the afternoon when she seemed sick.
The doctor said even though Whack Whack is only 15, her insides are old.
I'm also supposed to work on her diet. Dr. O works with Lafaber so she's all about the nutriberries.
As of now we're supposed to go back on August 13th for the echocardiogram.

Karen