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Old 08-08-2018, 08:57 PM
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Will I ever own a bird?

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Aloha,

This is my first post and I'm not quite sure if a species-specific subforum is the right place, but I'd like to get some input while I've been pondering a lot, lately.

I love all kinds of animals, always have (if it was my will, I'd be living in my own little private "zoo"), and while I've always dreamt of owning a parrot, I never really considered it realistically until just recently. I liked budgies and other smaller birds friends had, but have never seen them as pets for >me<, and larger parrots never seemed a realistic option, somehow, as no-one around me had one. I just recently reconsidered and noticed those are actually legit pets normal people legit have. So, I started doing my research and came to a dead-end pretty fast, as I was evaluating species, my life, ...etc.

I've fallen in love with conures. I do like the looks of lovebirds, too, but they're almost at the "tad too small" end of my liking. I'm not the absolute biggest fan of normal green cheek conure morphs, but I do love the turquoise ones. I also absolutely love sun conures (yes, I am aware they are loud) . I love their characters - at least what I read about them. I want a bird I can interact with and that has a personality. But here's where it starts getting tricky.

We're a multi-cat household. Obviously, the birds would NEVER be alone with the cats and never be out of the cage with the cats. We're also planning to have a dog at some point in the future. I know many bird owners are strictly against having any cats (and some even dogs), at all, too the point of it almost feeling radical (but I can see where they're coming from - they don't seem to be the most logical pairing). I do, however, personally know many people who have (or have had) both cats and birds, and it worked out quite alright. Kindly, please keep an open mind
Now, I'm all aware of bacteria, especially from cats, being a problem for any bird. What I do not know is the extend of that danger. From what I read, it's most critical if the bacteria gets into the blood stream (which is easily avoided if you reduce any chance of a cat harming a bird) - but what about shared space, i.e. rooms, furniture, ... What I mean is: if the bird is inside its cage, the cats would be allowed to share the room supervised (cats are social, too). They'd have a cat tree, maybe a toilet.... If the bird is out of its cage, it might end up sitting on the same furniture...

But, after extensive reading, what I'm even more concerned about is time commitment. Obviously, I'm not afraid of a longtime commitment of many years, even decades. Cats and dogs are long-living pets, too. What I'm more concerned about is the time they need each day. Obviously, I'd provide any pet I have the one-on-one time they need. For birds, they'd obviously get several hours outside the cage each day. Currently, I'm in the lucky position of being able to work from home some, if not most/all days. However, that might change in the future and I might be required to work an ordinary 8-5 job away from home. My husband works full-time, too. Now, I understand that especially conures need a lot of social interactions with their humans. My life - while it seems quite perfect for a bird at the moment - is just not as predictable and very likely never will be in the long-run. How do normal professionals, working normal jobs, ever own birds? Especially in these unpredictable times. This is a genuine question as I cannot wrap my head around it. What about travels?

Will potential absence from home during working hours be somehow mitigated if getting a pair?

Depending on which forums you read, people either strongly recommend getting at least a pair or not getting more than one bird caged together, at all. The same goes for hand- vs. aviary-raised.

If, eventually, I'm even considering rescuing.

So, while I'm not really planning on getting a bird right now (to complicate things, I live in Hawaii, but most probably will not stay here indefinitely - and I don't have a good sense of where I'll end up, yet - it might even be someplace like New Zealand, where you're not allowed to bring your pet birds into), I am looking ahead a few years...and do wonder if I ever will be able to own a bird (before retirement) given so many uncertainties in my life.

Thanks for any thoughts

Last edited by Ankaa; 08-08-2018 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 08-08-2018, 11:47 PM
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Re: Will I ever own a bird?

Well NO, you wont: no-one here owns birds, the birds own us

But have you considered fostering?
Just like kittens and puppies a shelter is almost never a great place for a parrot to be.
(that's how it's done here anyway: if a parrot is up for adoption but not quite ready for a forever home -f.e. because it is still adapting to different/healthier foods, getting a tad more socialized, recouvering from /working on some trauma's but most of the time: it just needs a lot of one-on-one interaction and a relatively quiet and safe place to live till the right person shows up.)

I would not even advice a dog in 2 double full-time-at-work household let alone a parrot (but opnions vary)

(and no: never leave cats&birds together without supervision: I've had dead aviary birds because the cats simply nailed them through the mesh. It's not the bacteria on the furniture - its the ones in their mouth and on their claws & their hunting instinct that will kill your bird. )

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Old 08-09-2018, 12:20 AM
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Re: Will I ever own a bird?

I'll share my situation as it seems very similar to what yours may become should you decide to get a bird.

I have a full time job, 8-5. I also have a sun conure and 2 parakeets. I have to leave them at least 9-10 hours M-F (hours include my travel to and from the office). I try to make it work. I would always do my grocery and errands during my lunch hour so I can get home to them sooner. Sometimes I'd visit them for lunch. I see my family or friends less so weeknights and weekends are always spent with the birds. I gave up the idea of travelling ever since the birds happened. That's one thing I was okay to live without. No over stays at the family home anymore either - even on holidays. This one's harder to deal with because my brothers and I always stayed up late at night to play games, watch movies whenever we had family events. I got used to it though and hardly miss it anymore. As for the birds, they're out the cage when I'm home, except to sleep. I make sure they have toys and foraging activities in their cages to keep them occupied while I'm at work. I leave music on for them (various playlists of classical and choral music, birds, rain sounds, etc).

It's not ideal and I'd stay at home all day with them if I could, but sadly I have to earn a living for myself and for them. I just make sure I make up for as many hours as I possibly can to give them enough socialization and out of cage time. They have no behavioral problems and seem to be well adjusted birds.

As long as you provide a predictable routine, a healthy diet, a stable and enriched life, and most importantly a safe, forever home, I think you can make it work. Be ready and willing to make sacrifices to your lifestyle and plans, both big and small, for your birds. If you have big life changes ahead of you (i.e. children, moving countries, etc.) I'd give this decision a hard and long thought. These are often things that lead to the re-homing of a bird which no one wants happen. If I could turn back time, I may have chosen to get birds after or close to retirement but they are here now and I made a promise to care and love them - so with me they will stay no matter what life throws at me.

You came to the forums, and obviously have done your homework - I think you're off to a great start. Best of luck in your decision.
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:50 AM
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Re: Will I ever own a bird?

Thank you for your replies, already!

Quote: Originally Posted by ChristaNL View Post
Well NO, you wont: no-one her owns birds, the birds own us
Oh, my bad! So, basically like our cats, who have personell - nothing new in that department then

Quote: Originally Posted by ChristaNL View Post
But have you considered fostering?
Just like kittens and puppies a shelter is almost never a great place for a parrot to be.
I indeed have not considered that. Mostly probably for similar reasons why I don't foster cats and dogs (though I do want to, because I want to help): I get emotionally attached way too easily. But also, I just really simply didn't think of that. It might be a good way to test if a bird is actually something for us.


Quote: Originally Posted by ChristaNL View Post
I would not even advice a dog in 2 double full-time-at-work household let alone a parrot (but opnions vary)
Well, it's much easier to take a dog with you to work But obviously, I wouldn't get a dog if I can't accommodate its needs and that is part of why I don't have one at the moment (the other being our landlady saying "no"). I've had dogs before; my parents also are accredited AKC breeders. So, I do consider myself knowledgable as to what a dog needs and what lifestyle I would need to have in order to provide a favorable home for one.

What I do not know is what a bird needs - and that's why I'm asking

For example, we're not super big travelers. We're actually taking our first longer vacation in almost 3 years this Fall to go to Europe to visit family - we'll have a friend house sitting during that time who's taking care of our cats . Having cats kinda already limits our lifestyle, anyways - but, in the past, we would give them into boarding if going onto vacation for maybe up to a week, if necessary. We also do trips of a couple days (with friends coming to feed them) every now and then. We're not constantly gone, but not being able to be away AT ALL (not having any vacation at all, ever) might not be what we want. The same with weekends. We're not out and about all the time, but we do stuff during the day on weekends, sometimes, so might be gone for several hours or half a day. We're not big on visiting friends and family every single weekend, but kinda being stuck at home all the time even during the weekend again would be a "no".

So I guess my question is, how much "alone" can a conure, specifically, or pretty much any parrot, generally, be? Is half a day or a couple days every now and then ok?

Also, how strong is their human bond really? Say, if I were to go on a business trip (I'm a field biologist, so being gone for field work is inevitable - usually my husband would take care of all pets while I'm gone - as do I if he's away for work; we're very rarely both gone for any extended period of time), would it still be ok with my husband's company? (and yes, I'm aware that there's always the possibility that the bird wouldn't even bond with me, anyway - I'm just speaking hypothetically to learn more about behaviors and what needs to be considered)

Again, would it help if there was a pair? That's for example why we have multiple cats - so they can keep each other company.

Can different species be bonded? Say, could I bond a GCC with a sunny?

Quote: Originally Posted by ChristaNL View Post
(and no: never leave cats&birds together without supervision: I've had dead aviary birds because the cats simply nailed them through the mesh. It's not the bacteria on the furniture - its the ones in their mouth and on their claws & their hunting instinct that will kill your bird. )
It was my understanding that the cats grooming themselves and getting saliva onto their fur and paws - and consequently everywhere else is part of the problem. So the question probably is more: how long can the deadly bacteria survive outside the cat.

@BoomBoom Thank you so much for your insights!

Again, I obviously wouldn't get a bird - or any pet, for that matter - if I felt I couldn't accommodate its needs and that my lifestyle at that time isn't appropriate. But even when making the decision during the best possible circumstances, especially in this day and age, circumstances can change so quickly and quite drastically (like moving, like work situation/hours etc.). It's so hard to plan 5 years ahead - let alone a lifetime of any long-lived pet. I'm not so much planning big life changing events - but some may just come along inevitably because of our professions (both in biology/conservation), economy, politics....you name it. Life throws many things at us that we never expected. For example, 11 years ago, my parents would never even have thought about moving countries, let alone continents, and now they have their 10-year anniversary living in the States, this year. Five years ago, I wouldn't even have dreamed of living in Hawaii - and now it's already been three years (and yes, we moved continents, too, and we brought our cats - it never even one second was open for debate to leave them behind, all our pets are family).

As for routine, that one might be the hardest. While I could definitely try to get as much routine as possible - how difficult would it be if that routine would be broken every now and then (say, coming home later every once in really a while)?
Or say, working from home 2 or 3 days a week and giving them a lot of out-of-the-cage time during those days (our cats sleep most of the dame, regardless of wether I'm home or not), but being kinda cage-bound the other days?

BoomBoom, is your sun conure very screamy while you're gone?

I'm looking forward to getting more thoughts, insights and especially experience from other working professionals (surely, we can't be the only ones )

Last edited by Ankaa; 08-09-2018 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:37 AM
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Re: Will I ever own a bird?

Hey- it's great you are thinking this through!

Grinn, it never occured to me you can take your dog to work with you.
(it is not really a thing here / not yet anyway, but who knows what will happen later on)
I just visualised the poor pooch staying home alone all day.
(my bad)

I think you will be fine with a few true flockbirds - they are more 'forgiving' than the ones that really pairbond exclusively, but don't be too disappointed it they are going to be "watch and enjoy from a (small) distance birds" as opposed to the cuddly ones most people are after these days.

As far as I know there is quite a lot interbreeding between different conures going on, so if you don't want that happening... dna sexing before buying.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:11 AM
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Re: Will I ever own a bird?

Depending on your cats, it may not be a good idea to have the bird(s) in a location where the cats can easily reach the bird, even if the bird is in a sturdy cage.

I've had cats and dogs throughout my entire life - except for the past 6 months I've been without a dog... and I went even longer without a cat. (about a year?) My 13 year old dog died in February and my 14 year old cat(s) died last year. (two cats, brother and sister, but I only claim one of them! they died months apart...) I have a cat now, though...

I started keeping birds when I was 12 and the longest I've had two birds is [going on] 17 and 12 years. They are 17 and 24 years old! I've had them since I was a teen so they've been with me through moves, school, not school, various jobs, different boyfriends, friends, etc. The 24 year old is a conure! And he'd rather be on me any day rather than in his cage! Charlie (bird) doesn't have anyone else that he'll *really* go to, but my S.O. is trying to get Charlie to warm up to him. This is doable, if my S.O. keeps working on it! The 17 year old bird is a cockatiel, and she'd happily be on me getting scritches, off wondering around and looking for places to nest *OR* seeing what tasty treats the other birds have! (despite them all basically being fed the same foods!)


I've had budgies, bourkes and even a turquoisine so I kind of get it with birds being "too small". I had someone try to give me a very sweet parrotlet, but I was like nope! As sweet as the bird is, too small! I'd be afraid of accidentally killing the poor bird! And I've decided that unless I can have an aviary of small birds, I don't want small birds! And if I were to own something smaller than a cockatiel, a green cheek conure or other Pyrrhura would be the exception! And saying that, I'm fostering 2 green cheek conures... lol

If you like the turquoise green cheeks, have you seen the violets? Green or turquoise, I *love* the violets! I'm not a fan of the mutations either, but have come to appreciate the normal greens!

Charlie can be loud, but then he is a big conure! The green cheeks in comparison? Laughable! Don't get me wrong, they *can* be loud! But they can't scream like a mitred conure! And to be honest, it's better than the scream of a sun! A sun's scream is loud and high pitched! The bigger conures tend to have a lower pitched scream. It can still leave your ears ringing, but it's just loud!

I've gone on trips and have had people watch my birds (I've been to Hawaii, New Zealand, Bahama's.... or more local "outs" being just out of state for 1-7 days). Once I did board the birds at a local bird store and that time I had boarded my dog with a pet sitter. It's amazing I got him back! Both the pet sitter and her daughter fell in love with him! The cats have always remained at home... except the new cat, which I've had my sister look after him a couple of times at her place. The first time was literally after adopting him! He was at Petco (came through Humane Society as a stray) and I was literally going out of town that night. I was supposed to be on the way out, but I had seen him the day before and couldn't get him off of my mind... and since they wont hold an animal for you for more than a few hours and there's no guarantee he wouldn't be adopted by someone else.... I adopted him and took him straight to my sisters, then left for my trip! lol

Other than that, it's been my family taking care of my animals when I'm not around.

Charlie, although he's a conure, isn't excessively loud. Yes, he'll scream if you leave the room but it only lasts for 3-5 seconds and then he's quiet. He'll make noises throughout the day, occasionally scream, but he's not a nuisance.


I'm lucky where I currently work as I can take *any* animal with me to work! In fact, my boss keeps pestering me when I *DON'T* bring an animal in to work! Granted, she's not really there anyway if/when I do bring one in!

And yes, different species can bond! But keep in mind, if they belong to the same "family" (aka both are conures, but different species of conures), they can hybridize. (as Christa mentioned) Conures (at least the large ones) can also hybridize with macaws, amazons and caiques...


It's honestly probably easier to take a bird *OUT* of Hawaii than it is to get one *IN* Hawaii. Unless of course, as you say, you move to New Zealand! (equally as beautiful! volcanoes might not be a concern, but apparently earthquakes can be... I missed a big one in Christchurch by a day or two... 7 years ago) What island are you currently on?
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:08 AM
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Re: Will I ever own a bird?

Move to NZ Come to Canterbury - the province of Christchurch - I reckon we're all quaked out and you'll be sweet as! No green cheeks here though, although maroon bellied's are around...not as popular as they are in the states.

As a young wife with young kids (certainly not immune to change) the first thing I did once the IRN's came along, is find a local family of three teenage girls. The visited often and played with all of the animals. Now if someone is really ill, life gets too hard to handle or we are away I just ring the girls, and one of them will step in with confidence, with the animals. The animals love it - for sure, I do my best but they become part of your routine too, as they should. The visitors always spoil them, and the animals are always content on our return
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:51 AM
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Re: Will I ever own a bird?

I think it sounds like you'd make an excellent parront.

You're asking a lot of great questions and not just jumping into it on impulse. That's what we did... Went into a bird store, thinking we'd just ask some preliminary questions and price things out, but left with a deposit down on a baby cockatiel. Luckily, she wasn't done weaning when we met her, so we had a good 5-6 weeks to learn everything and prepare for her to come home. So, you're ahead of the game!

I think that, as long as you dedicate as much quality time as you can and this is at a minimum of 2-3 hours a day on average, that you'll be okay-- especially if you can go big on your days off and let the bird be out of the cage most of the day. Having cats will just mean being diligent about keeping them out of whatever room you and the bird are hanging out in, which will probably be a little inconvenient and annoying at times. I also think that going away for work while your husband stays home is totally okay. You never quite know how they'll react but it could be as simple as not outwardly caring at all to a little bit of moodiness but leaving for a bit won't ruin your relationship with your bird or anything like that.

As far as both of you going away on trips together goes, I wouldn't personally ever leave a bird alone for more than one day. But that's because I'd feel so bad and would be worried about too much poop getting in the food and water. We're going on our first vacation since getting Skye in a month and we'll be boarding her while we're gone. I like the idea of her being in a place with other birds, a tv set to cartoons, and the staff constantly nearby better than having her be alone at home and having someone coming to change food/water once a day.
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:06 PM
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Re: Will I ever own a bird?

Wow, so many replies, thank you very much!

I hope I don't forget anything.

Quote: Originally Posted by ChristaNL View Post
I think you will be fine with a few true flockbirds - they are more 'forgiving' than the ones that really pairbond exclusively, but don't be too disappointed it they are going to be "watch and enjoy from a (small) distance birds" as opposed to the cuddly ones most people are after these days.
Do you mean different species altogether? When hearing "flockbirds" I'm envisioning budgies, zebra finches, ....

I don't mind if a bird wasn't super cuddly - I still have cats and want a dog I would still like for it be tame, though, and be able to handle it somewhat. From what I read it's advised to get aviary-raised birds rather than hand-raised in that instance, because they're not as imprinted on humans... but that's why I also was thinking two birds so they can bond with each other. Are conures social enough to still somewhat interact with people even if bonded with other birds? Or is it a binary either-or?

Quote: Originally Posted by ChristaNL View Post
As far as I know there is quite a lot interbreeding between different conures going on, so if you don't want that happening... dna sexing before buying.
Good point, thank you! I wasn't aware of that.

Quote: Originally Posted by MonicaMc View Post
Depending on your cats, it may not be a good idea to have the bird(s) in a location where the cats can easily reach the bird, even if the bird is in a sturdy cage.
Any bird I'd ever own would get its own room that I could close off if I'm not home/there. I was thinking (hypothetically, really, as I really can't get a bird right now - I don't think our landlady would agree, anyways) my office, since that's probably where I spend most of my time if I'm home.

Quote: Originally Posted by MonicaMc View Post
I've had cats and dogs throughout my entire life - except for the past 6 months I've been without a dog... and I went even longer without a cat. (about a year?) My 13 year old dog died in February and my 14 year old cat(s) died last year. (two cats, brother and sister, but I only claim one of them! they died months apart...) I have a cat now, though...
I'm really sorry for your loss

How does it work with your cat(s)? Would you mind sharing a little bit more about your daily life? Is your cat an outdoor cat?

How did your conure fare while you were away all day for school (which really is a very similar situation to working)?

Don't get me wrong, I love watching budgies and other smaller birds. Lovebirds ARE adorable. I just wouldn't wanna own them.

I keep reading that sun conures are loud and while I watched few youtube videos I think I still can't quite visualize what that means in reality. I probably wouldn't mind occasionally screaming, even if loud (large dogs can be VERY loud) - what I definitely wouldn't want is what feels like hours of screaming (heck, there's a reason we don't want kids )

I tried looking up the violet conure, but I'm not quite sure if the right birds show up. I love the turquoise conure for that blue hue (I love turquoise and blue - not the biggest fan of dominant green).

Quote: Originally Posted by MonicaMc View Post
I'm lucky where I currently work as I can take *any* animal with me to work! In fact, my boss keeps pestering me when I *DON'T* bring an animal in to work! Granted, she's not really there anyway if/when I do bring one in!
I actually was wondering about that. I mean, obviously depending on the work place (which I REALLY can't predict right now - I'm in grad school currently), I was wondering of the possibility to take the bird(s) with you to work. People actually do that?

Did you ever take your cat?

Quote: Originally Posted by MonicaMc View Post
It's honestly probably easier to take a bird *OUT* of Hawaii than it is to get one *IN* Hawaii.
No kidding, haha. But really, you'd be surprised how many different types of parrots you actually can get here - I've seen different Macaws, Greys, Lovebirds, Budgies, finches, different conures, .... my friend has a cockatiel. Not sure if she brought him with her or whether she got him here (she's now back on the mainland, so apparently even moving across oceans is feasible with a bird).

Quote: Originally Posted by MonicaMc View Post
move to New Zealand!
Yeah, they have among the most stringent laws - I totally get where they're coming from, but it sucks if you've been a longtime pet owner (say, you've had your Macaw for 20 years and *have* to move to NZ for work....). I wished they'd be a little more open (with strict regulations, but just not completely prohibited) for bonded pets.

Quote: Originally Posted by MonicaMc View Post
(equally as beautiful! volcanoes might not be a concern, but apparently earthquakes can be... I missed a big one in Christchurch by a day or two... 7 years ago)
Oh it's so beautiful there! I was in Christchurch during the chrismas quake 2011...

Quote: Originally Posted by MonicaMc View Post
What island are you currently on?
We currently live on Maui

Quote: Originally Posted by itchyfeet View Post
Move to NZ Come to Canterbury - the province of Christchurch - I reckon we're all quaked out and you'll be sweet as!
Oh we would LOVE to. I've fallen in love with the Mackenzie county and actually lived in Kaikoura for 4 months. After that big Christmas quake in 2011 I think I even don't mind quakes anymore, haha.

I'm afraid if we end up in NZ, it's probably gonna be the Auckland area (mostly for work options). But, at this point, we might just as likely just move back to Europe (as much as the hubby likes NZ, he's kinda scared of it being so far from his family - even farther than Hawaii, and getting him out here was hard as is to begin with). I think he really wants to be closer, again. I myself wouldn't mind the US North East - or NZ. Hubby is open to Canada, too....). There's really no guessing where we'll end up (but we do end up there for good) at this point, unfortunately, as it really depends on where I can find work after graduation. We only know we probably won't stay in Hawaii (as beautiful as it is)

Out of curiosity, what kind of pet parrot species can you get in NZ? I tried to look it up the other day, but didn't get super far.

@Karlys: Thank you so much for your thoughts, too!

A few more logistical questions:

Birds sleep as soon as it gets dark, right? So giving them quality time while watching TV or sitting on the patio in the evening is not an option, right? I read somewhere that the bird should be in the busiest room which for many is the living room....but at the same time I read that birds should not be disturbed and be in a quiet place once they go to sleep - so....several cages?

As far as quality time goes (the mentioned 2-3 hours a day), does that definitely mean out of the cage time or can quality time also be just being there and interacting with the bird(s)? What I mean is, obviously any bird would get time out of the cage every day as much as possible, but the duration can vary depending on the individual day's schedule (some days might just be busier than others). To illustrate with an example: I'm currently still at home getting ready for work; drinking coffee and doing some internetting. All the cats are asleep. A bird could be outside for at least an hour right now. Then I leave for work and will be back in the late afternoon. I could probably give a bird another hour outside it's cage, but first, it'll get dark soon, and second, the cats are usually awake when I get home (if I work from home it obviously is a very different story). So, if the birds could stay inside the cage but still get quality time, I could let the cats into the room and interact with all of them simultaneously...does that make any sense?

Either way, of course I'd also make sure a bird would get a big a cage as any possible with lots toys etc.

Last edited by Ankaa; 08-09-2018 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:17 PM
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Re: Will I ever own a bird?

My bird (yes, 1), OWNS ME.
Thankfully, she isn't sure of that...but I have left my special education job to take her to the vet mid-day and yes, she is my obnoxious, snarky, weird, baby. According to 3 avian vets, she is the "the most well-adjusted cockatoo they have ever met" (3X OVER!!!!) That doesn't change the fact that she is like living with a child with special needs, who needs to live in a bubble, who no one else respects as they would a child...No one cares about birds, unless they have dogs or something and can somehow relate....and while the love may be the same, the relationship isn't the same, nor is the investment. Not to mention the differences in intelligence (and I am a dog person!)



I have extensive history with toddlers- high-schoolers with special needs....I have ABA training..
That doesn't change the odd fact that I have a loving and defiant (at times) gremlin hanging out with me....NEVER MIND the fact that the vets love her...


Badly behaved toddlers are easier than well-cared-for cockatoos....TRUST ME ON THIS...Really, I am not just saying that...The frail nature of a bird +temperature constraints+ behavioral issues+ damage threshold etc....


Not all birds are the same, but parrots, EVEN when raised VERY well, tend to require a crazy amount of time (unlike any dog or cat ).

Last edited by noodles123; 08-09-2018 at 02:19 PM.
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