Separating 2 Bonded GCC's at night time

edsbeaker

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Hi,
I have two female Green Cheeks, one 10 months old, and the other 9 months old. Once the younger one came home, they have spent all day together in their large cage or on their play gyms during the daytime and then moved to two separate sleeping cages at night that are side by side. They are very bonded, always snuggling together when out of the sleeping cages. In the last few weeks I have been wondering if it is cruel to separate them at night time. The two reasons that I initially decided to keep them separated at night was so that, first, they were safe from each other if any aggression were to happen, and secondly, so that they would more likely stay bonded to me.

So, I could use some advice here on what opinions are out there on this subject.
I still will use a sleeping cage... daytime cage is in a noisy area...
but should there be one sleeping cage or two?
Thanks!
 

Jen5200

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I have 4 conures - two are bonded (females) and the other two don’t like other birds particularly. My two that are bonded prefer to share a cage and I’ve always been fine with that. I have the option to not have them share a cage if there is ever aggression, but that’s not been an issue in the 3 years they’ve been with me. Mine came to me as adults, and I was able to build a relationship with both of them regardless of their sharing a cage. With my two, it hasn’t impacted my relationship with them to have them sleep together. I can’t say for sure that it wouldn’t change anything - but it sounds like they are together all the time during the day and that hasn’t changed your bond, so I don’t think it’s likely to change if they share a sleep cage. Just my opinion, curious what others think :)
 
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edsbeaker

edsbeaker

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Thanks for the input Jen. I'm not sure if I'm "humanizing" their feelings, but they are pretty smart creatures and I'm thinking there is a reason why I'm not feeling comfortable separating them. I guess my only other thought is, could they actually be enjoying their alone time...I know I do! Now I'm really confused. :confused:
 

Laurasea

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I had two bonded GCC girls. They chose to share a cage and slept side by side just fine for 8 years. I keept the spare cage in case I ever needed it. And they both stayed wonderful friends with me. I ended up getting a huge cage for them so they had lots of room. Now my Ta-dah has it to herself since her best buddy passed.
 
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edsbeaker

edsbeaker

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Thank you for your experience, Laura. So sorry about your and Ta-Dahs loss. :(
 

EllenD

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For some reason it does seem like Green Cheek Conures, and actually Conures in-general, whether a Sun or a Blue-Crowned or a Mitred, etc., really do seem to be much more able to stay bonded to each other AND to people at the same time than other parrot species...I have no idea why, but that really does seem to be the case...I had several breeding-pairs of Green Cheeks over the years that were not hand-raised nor socialized at all, and obviously they were closely bonded with their mates, but even they were still much more friendly with me than any other breeder-birds I've had...Conures are just very social, friendly birds if they are treated well and loved...

Now if you have ANY WORRY about them fighting with each other during the night when no one is there to separate them, then you don't dare let them sleep together!!! That's a totally different story...I don't know if you have reason to think that they might become aggressive with each other, but if that has EVER happened, then I wouldn't lock them inside a cage together unsupervised all night, as that could end in tragedy...
 

Laurasea

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Thank you for your experience, Laura. So sorry about your and Ta-Dahs loss. :(

Thank you very much, you are the first member to acknowledge my loss of Burt the Bird, and.. Ta-dah's as well. She was devastated..
I hope your girls have long happy lives, abd you post lots of Happy pictures :)!
 
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edsbeaker

edsbeaker

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For some reason it does seem like Green Cheek Conures, and actually Conures in-general, whether a Sun or a Blue-Crowned or a Mitred, etc., really do seem to be much more able to stay bonded to each other AND to people at the same time than other parrot species...I have no idea why, but that really does seem to be the case...I had several breeding-pairs of Green Cheeks over the years that were not hand-raised nor socialized at all, and obviously they were closely bonded with their mates, but even they were still much more friendly with me than any other breeder-birds I've had...Conures are just very social, friendly birds if they are treated well and loved...

Now if you have ANY WORRY about them fighting with each other during the night when no one is there to separate them, then you don't dare let them sleep together!!! That's a totally different story...I don't know if you have reason to think that they might become aggressive with each other, but if that has EVER happened, then I wouldn't lock them inside a cage together unsupervised all night, as that could end in tragedy...


Thank you. They have never fought, but your post did lead me to think about how to lessen the chance that it might happen, but allow them to sleep together. When they are together during the day either in their large cage or their open play gym, they each can always get away from one another if necessary. The sleeping cage is much smaller, so possibly could be an issue. I don’t think they would fight, but how does one ever really know? I think, just to be on the safer side I will set up a large size sleeping cage in a quiet room for the two to share at night. I think this may be the best way to go. Thank you for leading me to a good and safer solution.
 
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edsbeaker

edsbeaker

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Thank you for your experience, Laura. So sorry about your and Ta-Dahs loss. :(

Thank you very much, you are the first member to acknowledge my loss of Burt the Bird, and.. Ta-dah's as well. She was devastated..
I hope your girls have long happy lives, abd you post lots of Happy pictures :)!

I think we tend to sometimes forget about the surviving pet, who I think might have a harder time dealing with their loss then people do. 😢
 

clark_conure

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Like laurasea said, I just put both my females in the same cage, I'm sure they have a spat or two probably started by the baby Zod, but for anything minor I just let clark be the alpha female and there has been no blood lost or even a feather. Usually when I see them spat it's more of a "NO! AND CHIRP!!!". and the pecking order got it's name from....well just that; bird interpersonal relationships. (note if I hear a loud chirp I put myself between them, got a few bites but nothing really hard at least to me.)

Also what EllenD said both conures still come to me at ANY time of separation, and make contact calls for me, but not eachother. Basically they both think they are people.

Also what EllenD mentioned....I know this will make peoples upset but let them have a few tussles...let them fight in front of you just to gauge how serious it is...if it's not....then your fine. At most have two food bowls available so they don't fight over food. there will be an alpha and a beta, once tht is resolved there won't be anymore fighting....at least until the smaller one gets bigger.

I give both birds equal time and affection and, usually 90% of the time, they are preening each other. I think the spats come when the new one is more nippy and clark doesn't like. Still working on bite pressure.

I wouldn't worry so much, if anything you MIGHT (AND I AM NO EXPERT HERE) you might be prolonging the feelings by not letting them settle things out themselves.
 

EllenD

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Like laurasea said, I just put both my females in the same cage, I'm sure they have a spat or two probably started by the baby Zod, but for anything minor I just let clark be the alpha female and there has been no blood lost or even a feather. Usually when I see them spat it's more of a "NO! AND CHIRP!!!". and the pecking order got it's name from....well just that; bird interpersonal relationships. (note if I hear a loud chirp I put myself between them, got a few bites but nothing really hard at least to me.)

Also what EllenD said both conures still come to me at ANY time of separation, and make contact calls for me, but not eachother. Basically they both think they are people.

Also what EllenD mentioned....I know this will make peoples upset but let them have a few tussles...let them fight in front of you just to gauge how serious it is...if it's not....then your fine. At most have two food bowls available so they don't fight over food. there will be an alpha and a beta, once tht is resolved there won't be anymore fighting....at least until the smaller one gets bigger.

I give both birds equal time and affection and, usually 90% of the time, they are preening each other. I think the spats come when the new one is more nippy and clark doesn't like. Still working on bite pressure.

I wouldn't worry so much, if anything you MIGHT (AND I AM NO EXPERT HERE) you might be prolonging the feelings by not letting them settle things out themselves.

I agree with this to a point, but there is a huge difference between a "tussle" and an actual fight...And we also need to remember that there reactions are much different out in an open area than they are when they are locked in an enclosed area...Fight or Flight is a very real thing, and if two birds are locked inside of a cage and they have what would typically be a small "tussle" between and alpha and beta or dominant and submissive birds, inside of a small, enclosed area that they cannot get out of, that "tussle" can quickly turn into a very violent fight that can result in cracked/broken beaks, punctured eyeballs, and bite-wounds that bleed a lot...And Green Cheeks are small birds that do actually die after losing only 2 Teaspoons of blood...That's it, that is literally the amount of blood a Green Cheek Conure can lose before dying...And if they lose anywhere near 2 Teaspoons of blood and they live, they will be severely Anemic and their Blood-Pressure is going to tank...Blood-loss is the #1 reason that birds die during surgery; most people think that it's the anesthesia that kills birds during surgery, but that's not the case at all, it's blood-loss. They just don't have much blood in their bodies to begin with, and once they lose around 1 Teaspoon their Blood-Pressure drops so quickly that this is why their hearts stop beating.

So keeping that in-mind, all it takes is a toenail being ripped out, or a bite-wound to a very vascular area of their bodies like their necks, their eyes, a toenail, the upper part of their beak, etc. and that's it. If no one is there to immediately put pressure on the bleeding and slow-it/stop it, they will die quickly...So the bottom-line for me is always "Is the risk worth the benefit?"...

I had a friend who lost their Sun Conure due to a fight that he had with her Jenday Conure. They were both purchased at Petco at the same time as very young, hand-fed baby birds, and they both had their own cages and didn't live or sleep together in the same cage, but they were together whenever she was home and they were out of their cages...They were very bonded to each other and to her, and they did have exactly what Clark describes as "Tussles", just like most birds have from time to time...She had run out to the grocery store to pick-up a bag of dogfood, and the birds were out flying around the house, having a good time, and she lived 5 minutes away from the store, so she figured it would be fine, so she just left them out, told them she would be back in 10 minutes, and she left...She said she was gone for no longer than 20 minutes, and when she came back her Sun Conure was laying dead in the bottom of his own cage in what she called "an ocean of blood"...Now Sun Conures don't have that much blood in their bodies, so she was just so traumatized by what she saw that it looked like "an ocean of blood", but it was probably only around 2 Teaspoons or so of blood...

The only wound on her Sun Conure anywhere was to it's eyeball...The Jenday took the majority of the fight, he was covered with bite wounds all over his body, and he had a small crack to his beak, and a very bad bite to his wing...But the Jenday lived and was fine...The Sun Conure had one, single puncture wound to it's eyeball...Behind the eyeball of pretty-much all animals, including humans, is a large Sinus (big blood-vessel) that provides blood supply to the eye and surrounding tissue...And when the Jenday punctured the Sun's eye, it also punctured the Sinus behind the eyeball, and the Sun Conure literally bled-out through that Sinus behind it's eyeball...Such a freak thing that happened, not even a bad fight...But apparently the Jenday Conure decided to go inside of the Sun Conure's cage, and the Sun became territorial about it's cage, and they got into a fight, and unfortunately the Jenday managed to put it's beak through the Sun's eye, and that was it...

These are the kind of freak accidents that can happen, and these are the things that make me always stop and ask myself "Is this worth the potential risk? Does the overall benefit out-weigh the risk?"...And usually the answer I get is a resounding "NOOOO"...
 
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edsbeaker

edsbeaker

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There has been some great points made here, but really what I was looking to have answered has been overlooked. My only real question has been this. is it cruel to keep two bonded GCC in two separate cages, side by side, at night time? If not, I will just continue to keep it that way.
Thanks. ��
 
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Flynhigh

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I don't think its cruel, as you cant be sure what will happen while your sleeping . Unless your seeing something changing within their relationship and even then you would have to dig pretty deep to be able to come up with a "why" is their relationship suffering ? Cruel to me would be one of the birds suffering the rest of its life with a debilitating injury or worse with the example that was shared above. I think the question was answered but more on a "What could " basis . Hope this helps.
 
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edsbeaker

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Thank you! I will keep them in separate sleeping cages!
 

ParrotGenie

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This is one of those very complex topic I waited as it is hard to give advise on this one, not sure if there really is a correct answer for this one, as could be wrong, or right on some stuff? I seen it go very wrong and very right, so here from experience. As for me I make this decisions case by case when dealing with a mated couple. Currently have a mated pair of umbrella Cockatoos by accident, as wasn't expecting them to bond as they did as they are my pets/companions, not breeding them in this case. I took him as a rescue as he was on his last legs and found him at a garage sale and my female umbrella is picky and she turn down other males in the past. She just unexpectedly bonded to him as a mate when I introduce him. Yes both were DNA tested. Thankfully he wasn't aggressive and they are both pretty sweet.

This may issues with keeping a mated couple in a cage together at night is you could have a very dominant male and submissive female bird and even the other way around. This from experience usual goes wrong. I had a friend recently lost his Amazon female due to male pin her down and broke her beak, vet had to euthanize her as quality of life would have been bad due to beak was unrepairable as he broke bottom and top. Then I took his male and re-homed him as he didn't want him anymore. The bad thing about it was avoidable as I warn him months ago and told him to separate them. He didn't listen and thought I was being to OCD about it and he didn't want to break their bond?

The thing is you have to work these issues out and can take months to work out aggression. It usually what happen with male birds as they can bond to a human like a mate and then will bond to a female bird as a mate as well. This is what usually causes the dominant aggressive behavior in males. The eclectus parrots, where the dominant sex usually the female. In most cases the male don't know how to deal with a female bird and typically tries to dominate and becomes to protective of her. Then when female tries to get away the male attacks. I usually separate them for a while and when I put them back together to help break this aggression I clip the male and put them in a much larger area so female can get away, then I separate them till till he learn not to be to aggressive. This take months and require extreme supervision. If he continue I will break the bond and separate them permanently. I work with breeders and rescues all the time, so dealing with a pet you won't have choices.

Here what I do and worked for me for years and breeders I dealt with.

First if I every try to pair a bird I always try to pair the male with a larger female bird if possible. Unless you are a breeder, with a pet you won't have the luxury. One major rule never allow a larger male to pair with a smaller female, break the bond if you have to early on. It not going to work, this usually end up very badly.

Second always consider Past History hopefully knowing some of the history of the bird before you adopted them: Any male that has ever killed or seriously injured his mate should be permanently excluded from every being paired to another mate period. Mostly again for breeders.

Third if temporary separation becomes necessary, always remove the male from the cage, or aviary - not the female, to avoid the male becoming territorial and attacking her when she is reintroduced into the cage, or aviary. Once the female has been separated from the male, she will be calling the male, so yes they will scream at time. Always have a separate cage available at all times.

Fourth The most important step to stopping mate aggression. Provide large cages so they can have separate spot within that cage to get away from each other when needed, or better yet a nice large room as a aviary. Don't keep them in a cage where they have to share same perches and can't get away from each other. This is the biggest mistake I seen a lot of breeder even make, think they need to go smaller. That a big NO.

The final one is Pair Compatibility: If possible allow the birds to select their own mates. If you are unable to accommodate this, then try pairing aggressive males with aggressive hens, sweet males with like hens; and avoid pairing large males with small females. Separate pairs if there are warning signs of aggression. This one mainly for breeders

This is the foundation to have a good successful pair that can sleep in same space and can minimize the risk of fights, serious injuries, or worst death.

There is a lot more to this, but not trying to write a book on a thread.
 
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