How do I capture/train this behaviour?

Albie absolutely melted my heart this morning, he was wanting a banana chip (he only has them as a very occasional treat) at first he started chipping for one, the shouting, when I looked over to him he chirped and tapped his feet very quickly on the tub they are in, I couldn't not give him one after those tippy-taps!

So how do I teach him/capture those tippy-taps!

Whenever he does it, say a cue word you want associated with it and give a treat. Keep doing that every time. I try to watch for pre-behavior cues, so that I can say the cue word just as he starts or even just before he starts the behavior, so the association is stronger. Eventually you'll be able to say the cue word first, which will then trigger the desired action. It might take a few sessions, but it really is called capturing a behavior. Sometimes you have to lie in wait to capture a behavior hahaha

Yup- agreed- and treat him the second he taps, even if you forget to say the cue initially, you could say "good tap" and give him a chip.
Try to say "tap" (or whatever right before you know he will do it) but the key is to give the reward the second he does it so he makes the association between the action and the reward.

It’s way too early for introducing cues in this instance: capturing a novel behavior. Cues come later when trying to capture spontaneous behavior like this. Doing so now muddies the communication and prolongs the training.

Capturing starts with clicker training. Your first goal is SIMPLY to increase the desired behaviors frequency, get alone to do it often: See novel behavior, click and reward. You can’t implement a cue if the behavior is so rare.

Once the bird learns that this behavior gets rewards, he will start a “begging” phase, offering the trick up frequently In attempt to con you out of treats. It’s at this begging phase that a cue can most effectively be introduced, since you’re getting more predictable, back to back behaviors.

Depending on how quickly the bird catches on, all this can last just a couple days, or a couple weeks.

chris-md said:

It’s way too early for introducing cues in this instance: capturing a novel behavior. Cues come later when trying to capture spontaneous behavior like this. Doing so now muddies the communication and prolongs the training.

Capturing starts with clicker training. Your first goal is SIMPLY to increase the desired behaviors frequency, get alone to do it often: See novel behavior, click and reward. You can’t implement a cue if the behavior is so rare.

Once the bird learns that this behavior gets rewards, he will start a “begging” phase, offering the trick up frequently In attempt to con you out of treats. It’s at this begging phase that a cue can most effectively be introduced, since you’re getting more predictable, back to back behaviors.

Depending on how quickly the bird catches on, all this can last just a couple days, or a couple weeks.

Click to expand...

Who are you referencing in this?
My thing is- reward the second you see the behavior, whether or not you remember to say the words.

Saying a word is the same as a click as long as its the same each time. Heck- you could say "boo" or "beep" or "pop" or "yikes" and if you rewarded in association with that sound, its the same as a clicker.
The idea of saying a word and treating, vs clicking and treating is the same.
I didn't mean say the word and expect your bird to do it- I meant anticipate the behavior (clearly a begging behavior) and start saying it--- the bird is going to likely do it if the banana chips are out again. As soon as he does it, give the reward.
Obviously he doesn't know the association between the word, the action and the reward yet, but by treating the second the behaviors occurs, he will make that association.
"Good tap" vs "click" are the same if they are consistent.

For instance-- when lightly potty training my bird, the second I saw her butt lift up, I said "go poop", matter where she was (of course, she was already in the process of doing so) but I said it because I knew that she was definitely about to poop. Then I immediately said "GOOD POOPING + instant reward.
She now knows what "go poop" means because I labeled the behavior as it was happening and rewarded instantly paired with the same phrase every time "good poop".
I still say "good pooping" anytime she goes, but I faded rewards over time and transitioned to verbal praise only, as she cares most about attention anyway.
Early on, you want to reward/reinforce each time the desired behavior occurs and do so right away. After mastery, you can fade to rewarding every other time and so on, but you want to pair tangible items (like food) with verbal praise because if you fade out the food eventually, you can still use the other (as long as you have a bird that likes attention). Your bird is clearly food motivated, as that is what gave birth to this behavior, but for some other people, there might be other reinforces that would be stronger than food, so just throwing that out there for anyone else reading this.

It doesn't over-complicate to tell them to do what they are already going to do as long as you reward the behavior immediately. Over time, even if they don't get it right away, they will form the association between the words and the action. Again-- most important thing is to reward right away with some sort of consistent word...but I have never used a clicker--it's just a sound that is associated with a reward. Now, if a bird already knows clicker training, then that's fine, but you could click all day at mine and she wouldn't get it because she is trained with words, e.g., "good girl" not a click.

It's not too early to label the behavior, as long as you provide instant 1-1 reinforcement and are able to catch them doing the desired behavior--- in this case, we know banana chips worked, if it were me, I would sit there eating them and imitate the situation that cause it the first time. Then when the bird did it, I would say "good tap" and reward at the same time (good tap would become the click if comparing clicker to verbal). IF I knew the tap was coming (based on body language/begging behavior) I would say "tap" the second it started, then say "good tap" and reward simultaneously.
Again- if your bird already knows clicker training, then use that-- but if not, that is a learned skill and it all comes down to behavior + sound+ reward in rapid succession following the desired behavior.

Noodles, it was primarily charmed. You are right, words can be used in place of a clicker. Ive done it, and I’ve got a video floating around here on the forum someone requested I make a couple years ago (I think it was Al?) On how to accomplish exactly this.

I will say that I’ve personally found, for me, clicker use to be more precise and gets faster results. People will wind up using common words like “good!”, which are overused and have little meaning to the bird. Clicker is more universal, unique sounding, and only ever heard in the context of training. The sight and sound of the clicker tends to get Parker in the training mode. For formal training, I long ago abandoned JUST words for bridging.

chris-md said:

Noodles, it was primarily charmed. You are right, words can be used in place of a clicker. Ive done it, and I’ve got a video floating around here on the forum someone requested I make a couple years ago (I think it was Al?) On how to accomplish exactly this.

I will say that I’ve personally found, for me, clicker use to be more precise and gets faster results. People will wind up using common words like “good!”, which are overused and have little meaning to the bird. Clicker is more universal, unique sounding, and only ever heard in the context of training. The sight and sound of the clicker tends to get Parker in the training mode. For formal training, I long ago abandoned JUST words for bridging.

Click to expand...

I tend to say "good + action", so, "good pooping" (started with "good poop"), good quiet", "good eating", "good gentle" etc-- it's my format so she is used to it, but I use it the same way- early on, you want phrases short and sweet because if the phrase is too long, it WILL confuse the bird and delay the reward, which can muddy the waters between the action being rewarded and the reward itself.

Ahhh, I think I didn't explain well enough.

So when I say to give a treat, I mean to include that clicker word or phrase that you might you. It's how we've trained Cairo his words and tricks, he says a phrase like, "Cairo!" Immediately I say the cue word, "name," then immediately (maybe a quick breath haha) follow up with, "Good boy" (clicker phrase), and give treat. He typically picks up what's going on within 2 sessions.

Then again, Cairo already has been clicker trained, already had been target trained, etc. So he does understand the difference between cue words and the clicker phrase already.

Oh no, you were clear. That’s sometimes how the Everyman trains their dog to sit.

The problem is that it’s inefficient. You’re putting the cue AFTER the action, which Is confused communication.

Proper technique to optimize results dictates the best practice is to START from a point where the cue will always come before the action, even in the beginning stages.

Your method falls under the heading of “definitely not how a seasoned training professional would do it, but whatever works for you...WORKS and nobody can argue otherwise”

Sorry- just deleted last post- was toggling between threads and posted on wrong one!

Thank you for the tips, I'm gonna try this out if and when he repeats it

So I have a question about the begging stage... what do you do?? I feel like he thinks I’m a treat dispenser. Lol. He learns a trick very quickly and then begs the and keeps repeating.

Allylang1 said:

So I have a question about the begging stage... what do you do?? I feel like he thinks I’m a treat dispenser. Lol. He learns a trick very quickly and then begs the and keeps repeating.

Click to expand...

What do you mean? Can you be more specific in describing the issue?
In this case, the OP LIKES the begging behavior..if you don't then you can change it, but without details about what is happening and what that behavior looks like, it's hard to give advise.

If you are saying what I think you are saying, you need to "thin" reinforcement to intermittent once he has mastered the new trick consistently.

You DO want to be viewed as a treat machine when they are learning (1-to-1 reinforcement during acquisition is key).

Do the trick a few times (1-3 daily) each day for like a week (until you are SURE he knows the trick), after that, when he does it, praise but do not necessarily give the treat. The 2nd time, give the treat, the 3rd time, do not, the 4th and 5th, maybe give a treat--but try not to make it a pattern (if every other time you are giving a reward makes it too predictable and they WILL figure out the pattern, which will decrease motivation). This random rewarding is called intermittent reinforcement and it is why people play slot machines. DO NOT make it predictable after acquisition or it will be too easy for him to work the system (you DO want to make sure he gets it before moving away from 1-to-1 reinforcement though...otherwise, you will confuse him).

At this point, you are a treat dispenser lol!
Imagine something you would only do if you REALLY wanted something--and imagine that you wouldn't do it unless you knew you would get a pay-off. This is your bird's version (at least, initially)...


When you were a kid, somebody probably praised you for using the toilet "OH wow! You went potty like a big girl, here is a cookie after you wash your hands!!!"
You did it a few times-- they still praised and rewarded.
Then you probably did it and one day, they just praised and explained that all of your friends were also doing this.
Then maybe the next, you got some extra attention or a reward for keeping your "pull-up" dry...
Same idea...eventually, the reinforcer (reward/motivator) changes as long as you shape it that way and as long as you have a good bond and don't move too fast.

Allylang1 said:

So I have a question about the begging stage... what do you do?? I feel like he thinks I’m a treat dispenser. Lol. He learns a trick very quickly and then begs the and keeps repeating.

Click to expand...

I think I understand your concern: how do you stop the begging, because it’s really annoying.

Its called the begging stage because it’s just that: a stage. a natural progression of training. It goes away on its own.

Here’s how: If you didn’t cue it, ignore the behavior. He only gets a reward when you ask for it. He eventually stops offering it up incessantly when he learns to wait for your cue.

You want the begging stage, it’s a good thing. Allows you to manipulate them.

Perfect! He is highly motivated. I just didn’t know whether to reinforce the behavior every time he just did it without me asking. He figures if he kisses me and spins over and over treats must be coming!! I don’t want him to become a neurotic spinning machine... Lol. Thank you both for your info!

Initially, it's fine if you reinforced every time he did it, but start only doing it when you prompt it---so, now, you would say "kiss kiss" (for example) and he would have to do that to get the treat. After he masters that for like a week (getting food each time) then start thinning it out.

I definitely enjoyed this thread.