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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2020, 11:18 AM
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Re: Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

Quote: Originally Posted by MegZ View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Inger View Post
Noodles and Laura. With all due respect. Stand down. Megz has repeatedly said sheís not ready to give up on having a relationship with Jasper and therefore our only job is to offer encouragement, suggestions when we are asked for them, and positive input. Thereís no doubt in my mind that she wants the best for him. It is not up to you two to decide what that means.

Megz-please keep posting your updates. Although I know youíre struggling, I commend you for continuing to try with Jasper and I love seeing the little improvements youíre telling us about. If it doesnít work out, you will never regret giving the extra effort, and knowing for sure.


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Yes. This. I don't want to have regrets either way. I don't want to wonder if I should have kept him or not. When our vet asked about him and how it was going (knowing it has been a hard start) she told us to give it more time. She said we'll come to know if we are a good fit or not. Yes my gut is still unsettled but there is still that wondering as he does make small improvements. I do think the loss of my previous bird is factoring into that, as a previous comment said my gut was crap right now. I took that to heart.

I read all your comments again and I know they ALL come from a place of care. It is just helpful when the comments keep us in mind as well. Pressure to do one thing or another just isn't going to work. I grew up in an environment where my every decision (and I mean every decision) was questioned so that just causes stress. So, my decision right now is to stay the course and wait and see. We have back ups and ideas for him if need be, that I feel could fit him well. But I don't want to have regret the other way either. Right now he has his daily routine. I can tell you exactly what he will do every day. That routine does not include us.....yet. If that continues, then I would feel like maybe he would need someone/something else. It is painful to go from the cuddle buddy of my life (and he had his issues too) to a creature that so far, seems to have no interest in us. That though is why we want to wait. Grief is affecting our judgment and my gut. It's a little bit of a mental battle but we are not ready just yet, to give up on, but it is a mental battle.

So, I can say straight out, being told we must rehome him immediately or risk psychologically damaging him, feels very stressful. That does not mean I don't understand where that advice is coming from - from love and care and honesty. It's just not helpful in this moment. You can imagine that it is painful to desperately want to make a connection with this little guy and have no idea if you actually are. Again, he is upstairs in his favorite spot, away from us. He does a little circuit. My husband usually works up there during the day but had Friday off, and now of course the weekend, but he is doing his circuit. And not a living soul is up there. He starts the day with his mini cage, then the back room upstairs, back to the big cage, and sitting on the little cage while we watch TV. Tiny moments of interaction that we encourage and sometimes wanted to be petted (from him) but not much more interaction than the beginning.

Some improvements - has a routine, less fear of us in general, will signal he wants something from us (get him over the top of the stair for example). I have taught him so far -
-To go potty before he leaves his cage. I taught our other bird the same thing and eventually to just go potty in his cage. That I do through a use of sign language and speech. He already knows he cannot leave his cage without going to the bathroom and he does it. That will eventually lead to knowing he should go back to a cage to go potty.
-To step up (he is still inconsisent). If he wants something, he will step up.
He also know some of our phrases so far. FYI. I tried clicker training and it just is not natural to me. I tend to use things that work with my special ed kids - praise and a mix of rewards. I praises you five times but now I am just so happy, I am going to share this millet with you. Works pretty darn well and it feels natural to me.

I can keep trying to give updates, but they will be up and down, because honestly, this is not easy and not a walk in the park. Some days, I just want to throw up my hands and others I don't and that is just how it feels.

Please don't get upset with each other. I appreciate people recognizing that the pressure isn't helping us but just remember that bird people are special, and you are all special because you love birds. You all see the world a different way than most.

I understand, Sorry for stressing you out. Like I said before, I do think this whole thing will improve with time.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2020, 11:45 AM
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Re: Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

Quote: Originally Posted by MegZ View Post
I can keep trying to give updates, but they will be up and down, because honestly, this is not easy and not a walk in the park. Some days, I just want to throw up my hands and others I don't and that is just how it feels.

Please don't get upset with each other. I appreciate people recognizing that the pressure isn't helping us but just remember that bird people are special, and you are all special because you love birds. You all see the world a different way than most.
I look forward to each update and commentary from the membership. The love, compassion, and yearning from all involved and contributing is impressive!

One of the understated values of this and similar threads is archived narrative to better the world of companion avians and their humble servants. Folks globally use search engines to read this and other forums for guidance and affirmation. I am certain the positive impacts are widespread albeit unknowable!
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2020, 03:51 PM
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Re: Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

EDIT; NO SOONER THAN I SAY ALL OF THE FOLLOWING AND JASPER BUGS THE HUBBY AND THEN WANTS TO STEP UP AND IS NOW SITTING ON HIS ARM. WO.

Hello all. Again as always, thank you for your input.

This is not an update. This is a question.

Right now Jasper has a routine and preferences. He does not seem fearful of us at this point. He seems confident in our presence and what he can expect from us. We have had him more than one month. We praise him, give him space, honor his preferences, pet him (on the head) when he is interested in that.

He does not seem to desire our company. He works to have the least interaction with us as possible, except when he wants petting when we put our hand up on the cage to signal that action.

So understanding us and lessened fear have occurred, but he truly shows no interest in us as flock members. As you know me being emotional (up and down), my spouse is the opposite. He is very laid back emotionally and calm. He is seeing the same things. He is the kind of person that animals adore - they always connect with him. Always. Needless to say, he just said the same thing to me. He feels like we are not making headway in that area.

Does this sound unusual to anyone? It feels unusual to us. We both have a long, long history of animals in our lives. Our previous rescue animals, started to bond with us the minute they knew we were there for them and reliable.

My husband did not have the gut - something is off - reaction I did our first few days together. He is not a gut person. He's an engineer. Doesn't think with his gut. My gut is often right but I DON'T WANT IT TO BE this time so really putting my all into this. Dropping the stress or having any requirements that I approach this situation a certain way HAS REALLY HELPED.

I just want to know if anyone else sees this as odd - that we have made no progress in bonding....? Think of hubby and his opinion noted above, and not me. He is so low-key that I would joke people would have a hard time knowing he was alive. :-)

Last edited by MegZ; 10-19-2020 at 04:29 PM.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2020, 04:26 PM
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Re: Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

Some birds do take months. Mine was re-homed to me and didn't step up for 3 months (granted she was an adult). Probably took around 3-4 before she consistently let me touch her (and she likes being touched). I don't think I FULLY knew her until around the 1 year mark. She started allowing on-cage head scratches about a month in, and stepped up at 3, but even after we got that down, she had off-days and wasn't as silly as she is now. Sometimes she would let me pet her, other times she would drop her head like she wanted pets and then jerk around to act like she was going to bite.

Also,some birds just are less physical, but it doesn't sound that weird given the time-frame..Now, yes, babies do tend to be more easy-going than adults, but if he was an older baby, it could take him a bit longer if he came from a neglectful situation, but I still think he will get there. Think about the progress you made in a month, and then think about where you could be in another month now that he is letting down some of those walls. Establishing trust is the first part, and you are working on that. It starts to move faster once you establish trust because everything overwhelms them early on (new home, new people, new cage, new sounds, new everything).

I'm not saying he couldn't be a little damaged (although none of what you have described seems like red flags behaviorally, so I don't necessarily think he is, but I cannot say that 500% because I never saw where he came from and I haven't seem him).There are 2 possibilities: 1. you guys keep at it and he warms up significantly, 2. he just isn't super touchy-feely (normal for a lot of perfectly well-adjusted parrots) but still starts to like you more and wants to be around (even if he isn't wanting to be petted). If there was trauma, it's going to take longer, but even really traumatized birds can be rehabilitated after physical abuse etc etc.

If he hasn't been touched a lot, he may take time to associate that with positives (and he is, considering he is letting you do it in a safe space---his cage). I know it doesn't seem like much, but if he has some trust issues, it's going to take longer before he just lets you touch him whenever (and many very trusting birds still are more hands-off). My thing is, he likes it through the bars, which makes me think it is a work in progress...

Maybe if you videotaped his behavior throughout the day and posted little clips (showing his good and bad moments) people would be able to assess his behavior more easily.

ps: With mine, pseudo/apparent confidence was the early stage of trust. There were at least 2 months where mine showed no obvious fear when I approached and even wanted to be touched and wanted to know where I was all of the time, but would still refuse to step up even though she knew how and sometimes charged me when I was near her cage doing things. At the time, it seemed very weird---like, she was really interested in me, but still too nervous to REALLY trust me away from her cage. It didn't FEEL that way though-- it felt like she was being a brat and testing me (or forever traumatized by the transition) and I felt like I had to do SOMETHING but I didn't know what because she was so all over the place in terms of her hot-cold emotions and it was very overwhelming...like, tell me I didn't get a bird that could live 80 years like this!! AHHHHHHH!

I don't know if that is helpful, but I just really think that with enough patience and love, good things happen. Again, he may not be super touchy (you know, how some people are huggers and others aren't?) but....I'm rambling now..

I know you are worried about the impacts of early neglect, but if it helps, there are MANY terribly neglected parrots (babies and adults) who still manage to form strong bonds with people and lead functional lives once they are in a better and more trusting environment.

I am not saying gut feelings are incorrect always, but they can also be self-fulfilling prophesies ( aka confirmation bias)-- "oh this happened and I knew it would" (without noticing all of the stuff that we didn't anticipate, and without considering how our bias may have led to the behavior/outcome. https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is...n-bias-2795024

and this (Yes..he says "Eskimos" and that is not the preferred term, but the video is decent at summarizing the idea, so frogive the politically incorrect portion and think Inuit instead (
)

Last edited by noodles123; 10-19-2020 at 07:10 PM.
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2020, 09:00 PM
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Re: Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

Quote: Originally Posted by noodles123 View Post
Some birds do take months. Mine was re-homed to me and didn't step up for 3 months (granted she was an adult). Probably took around 3-4 before she consistently let me touch her (and she likes being touched). I don't think I FULLY knew her until around the 1 year mark. She started allowing on-cage head scratches about a month in, and stepped up at 3, but even after we got that down, she had off-days and wasn't as silly as she is now. Sometimes she would let me pet her, other times she would drop her head like she wanted pets and then jerk around to act like she was going to bite.

Also,some birds just are less physical, but it doesn't sound that weird given the time-frame..Now, yes, babies do tend to be more easy-going than adults, but if he was an older baby, it could take him a bit longer if he came from a neglectful situation, but I still think he will get there. Think about the progress you made in a month, and then think about where you could be in another month now that he is letting down some of those walls. Establishing trust is the first part, and you are working on that. It starts to move faster once you establish trust because everything overwhelms them early on (new home, new people, new cage, new sounds, new everything).

I'm not saying he couldn't be a little damaged (although none of what you have described seems like red flags behaviorally, so I don't necessarily think he is, but I cannot say that 500% because I never saw where he came from and I haven't seem him).There are 2 possibilities: 1. you guys keep at it and he warms up significantly, 2. he just isn't super touchy-feely (normal for a lot of perfectly well-adjusted parrots) but still starts to like you more and wants to be around (even if he isn't wanting to be petted). If there was trauma, it's going to take longer, but even really traumatized birds can be rehabilitated after physical abuse etc etc.

If he hasn't been touched a lot, he may take time to associate that with positives (and he is, considering he is letting you do it in a safe space---his cage). I know it doesn't seem like much, but if he has some trust issues, it's going to take longer before he just lets you touch him whenever (and many very trusting birds still are more hands-off). My thing is, he likes it through the bars, which makes me think it is a work in progress...

Maybe if you videotaped his behavior throughout the day and posted little clips (showing his good and bad moments) people would be able to assess his behavior more easily.

ps: With mine, pseudo/apparent confidence was the early stage of trust. There were at least 2 months where mine showed no obvious fear when I approached and even wanted to be touched and wanted to know where I was all of the time, but would still refuse to step up even though she knew how and sometimes charged me when I was near her cage doing things. At the time, it seemed very weird---like, she was really interested in me, but still too nervous to REALLY trust me away from her cage. It didn't FEEL that way though-- it felt like she was being a brat and testing me (or forever traumatized by the transition) and I felt like I had to do SOMETHING but I didn't know what because she was so all over the place in terms of her hot-cold emotions and it was very overwhelming...like, tell me I didn't get a bird that could live 80 years like this!! AHHHHHHH!

I don't know if that is helpful, but I just really think that with enough patience and love, good things happen. Again, he may not be super touchy (you know, how some people are huggers and others aren't?) but....I'm rambling now..

I know you are worried about the impacts of early neglect, but if it helps, there are MANY terribly neglected parrots (babies and adults) who still manage to form strong bonds with people and lead functional lives once they are in a better and more trusting environment.

I am not saying gut feelings are incorrect always, but they can also be self-fulfilling prophesies ( aka confirmation bias)-- "oh this happened and I knew it would" (without noticing all of the stuff that we didn't anticipate, and without considering how our bias may have led to the behavior/outcome. https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is...n-bias-2795024

and this (Yes..he says "Eskimos" and that is not the preferred term, but the video is decent at summarizing the idea, so frogive the politically incorrect portion and think Inuit instead (The Confirmation Bias - YouTube)
Thank you. This is all very helpful.


And by the way - Laura - all your posts have been helpful too. Some of your straight honesty has helped me step back and think


My husband feels like a little switch has gone off. I trust his less emotional thought, so that's good! :-) Fingers crossed with patiend.
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2020, 10:13 PM
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Re: Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

Crossing all my fingers and toes that things are continuing to progress! Asking to hang out with hubby is HUGE! And just a reminder that even a bird who hasnít been traumatized takes their own sweet time to bond. My Bumble came home at 7 weeks from a lovely breeder. She s was hand tame from the get go and would let me hold her from day one, learned to step up and do tricks BUT as the first weeks and months passed I realized how much deeper our connection was than it started.

Have you read the Tips on Bonding and Building Trust thread? Iím sure you have but if not, itís a good one.


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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2020, 11:31 PM
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Re: Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

Not familiar with conures, but at the risk of anthropomorphizing, perhaps Jasper prefers a transactional relationship at the moment. Distant companionship in exchange for food and safety. May change over time (hopefully short) with persistence and love.
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2020, 04:29 AM
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Re: Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

Some birds are just contrary. They won't or can't dance to our tune and it's easy to judge them by a human yardstick and imagine they're ill or unhappy or distressed. Oftentimes, all they really need is time. I bet your bird is watching carefully everything that goes on in your house. I bet he already has his favourite person and his not-so-favourite. He knows who would bring treats for him to refuse and who probably wouldn't. I bet he's warming to you every day, only you can't see it because he's a bird and has no English.

Our dearly missed galah never warmed to anyone except my husband. It took him about a year to decide he (husband) was not a threat, though. One afternoon, he simply hopped off the table and into hubby's lap, creeping up to rest underneath his (hubby's) beard. From that moment, The Beard was his place of refuge and no one else would do. Go figure!

My best advice is not to worry, go about your daily business and simply make sure birdie has everything in the way of good food, water and a smattering of toys for just-in-case. Then, leave him alone to come or go as he pleases. I bet he works it all out in his own time.
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2020, 08:24 AM
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Re: Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

Quote: Originally Posted by Scott View Post
Not familiar with conures, but at the risk of anthropomorphizing, perhaps Jasper prefers a transactional relationship at the moment. Distant companionship in exchange for food and safety. May change over time (hopefully short) with persistence and love.
That's actually what it has felt like all along - transactional. I hope it does change over time. I know I wouldn't be able to handle 20 years of a transactional relationship. And, why would he be like that in the first place? Anyone else have that kind of experience? I hope he connects to us. Little rays of hope but it's slow.
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2020, 12:12 PM
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Re: Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

No,I have not . I always feel connection.
Penny who i decided to rescue was in such horrible conditions, I went home got the money and came back and got her. She was pretty angry , shooting poops at me, screaming, bites.... but moments of such sweetness and tenderness. The first 5 minutes in my home she cursed me out....speaking actual curse words..took time for trust and progress , but i felt connected to her, i still have to be mindful with her she has a lot of fears.

Pikachu I met on the side of the road for tge rehome. Love at sight,

Tadah and I looked at each other through plexiglass, and I decided she was coming home with me, she was little baby ( very young) so we did great.

Orbit put a show on for me. And I moved mountains to bring him home.

But I once got a tiny adorable blond puppy only weighed 1.5 pounds! For me and my 6 month old pup who had separation anxiety. I had searched for 3 months to find a smsll breed, and my first pup loved him .

3 days after getting him, half the people at my company were laid off in one day! A surprise and shock. The rest of us left were told the layoffs would continue, and tge company may fold....

Worried I wouldn't be able to aford shots and neutering. I found a new home for the puppy. He was absolutely ment to be their dog!!! He became the Rockstar of their life! I got to see him grow up and for most of his life,( before they moved) he was a happy spoiled dog living a great life.

Two weeks later, ( job future still unsure) I came across another puppy needing a home. He was soooo ugly he was cute, but i knew one day he would be beautiful. He had seizures and profound behavior issues. Everyone told me I was nuts to keep him, my family out pressure on me to rehome...but i wouldn't give him up for nothing!!! Quite different than tge first pup, who I was willing to part with...anyway my Alfie matured into a beautiful golden pekingese, grew out of his problems ( food aggressive, rages, dog fights) and became the most gentle of gentleman. He is the family's favorite. And I've been asked many times how did I know he would turn out so beautiful and sweet.....and like you have said before Meg, I just knew
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Last edited by Laurasea; 10-20-2020 at 12:27 PM.
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