Disgusted!

While doing some research into eclectus dietary sensitivities and requirements prompted by a fellow member's questions about her bird, I came across this article on the Harrison's website: Eclectus, commercial bird food diets and ?toe-tapping? | Harrison's Bird Foods.

The article basically alleges that toe-tapping in eclectus parrots is normal behavior! A means of communication!

Seriously?!?

While I've been fortunate in never having had an ekkie who suffered from either toe-tapping or wing-flipping, I've seen MANY videos of ekkies who were indeed dealing with this affliction. And I fail to see how anyone who has viewed such videos, or seen the behavior in person, could possibly entertain the thought that such behavior was in any way normal! In light cases the bird is visibly uncomfortable, and in the worst cases is actively suffering.

If they'd wanted to argue that some ekkies are more sensitive diet-wise than others, and that there are eclectus who can thrive on a diet of Harrison's pellets, that would have been one thing. A rational enough basis for debate, whether or not one accepts the actual veracity of that claim.

But to imply that toe-tapping is a natural phenomenon? To dismiss the suffering of a bird as a means of communication? Really?!?

Smacks of willful ignorance to me. After all, there are corporate dollars to be made, right?

Holy smokes, Stephen! I can't believe what I just read, and I can't believe that Harrison would publish such utter 'crappola' on their site. :11:

You're right, of course, it's all about $$$. And to see that an avian vet wrote this article has me really shaking my head.

I'm disgusted!!

I saw a familiar name in the discussion, did you see this, too, Stephen? (back from 2011, but still)

I am not a vet but I have seen it both in person and on video and you are right Stephen they are indeed SUFFERING! This article made me sick. There have been great strides in understanding these amazing complex parrots in the 25 years that I have been around them but we still have a long way to go. Erroneous information like this sets us back and will probably result in even more eclectus being kept on sub par diets and displaying these very disturbing symptoms. Males in the wild as well as captive birds tap with their BEAKS knocking on stuff not with their feet and wings. What a load of garbage! I am disgusted with Harrison and if I hadn't stopped buying it long ago this would have done it for me.

Well you learn something new every day. I had no idea eclectus parrots had the most sensitive hearing of any living animal. A form of communication, it's such garbage it would be funny if it wasn't so potentially misleading.

So I guess Pebbles and Gizmo are not toe tapping, because they are hearing their native friends replies from a few thousand miles away

Not sure if I have free access to this video because I am in Australia, but I have watched it again to check I had not missed something, and yes it talks about promiscuous behaviour, but certainly does not mention toe tapping, and definitely does not say "male “taps” as a way of communication". The only forms of communication discussed is colour.

I doubt the person even watched the video, as these parrots are visiting females in hollows, they are mostly clinging to the edge of the tree, feeding the female. They would struggle to tap, and certainly would not be able to do so and make any noise.

Having enjoyed many a camping trip in the Australian bush, the idea of a toe tap being a form of communication is completely ludicrous, good luck hearing that toe tap over the 1000's of insects fighting to communicate with each other (it's not all crocodiles and kangaroos)

Cheers,

Camo

Uh-huh! Because pellets are a primary culpret in causing this problem in eckies... And they don't want eckie owners to discontinue using their pricey pellets...

And again, the vets were used to market the stuff, at least initially. So, yeah, "it's the best... Cuz we make money off it!"

it's a good pellet, but eckie's just do not do well on a pelleted diet. They need fresh chop mix... And even then, you need to watch for a reaction to certain foods, and discontinue those when it happens...

Just like the magic plucking elixers.

Buy this pricey stuff and your bird will magically stop mutilating himself... (or you'll just be out $50.00!)

any body want to buy a diet pill?!

Lose 50 pounds in 30 days, with no diet or exercise...

Hey, if Black Palms can tap on a stump with a stick...

Eckies can do it with their feet...

Must be some kind of mating display... :32: (OR NOT!)

THAT IS SUCH COMPLETE HORSE PUCKY...

I'm declaring my position for other non-existent birds (uncontrollably 24/7) Please! Someone acknowledge my signal...

THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A NATURAL MATING BEHAVIOR AND TOE TAP GUYS... WHICH CRACKER JACK BOX DID THAT VET GET HER LICENSE FROM AND/OR HOW MUCH IS SHE GETTING PAID TO SAY THAT...

And JUST HOW STUPID DO YOU THINK WE ARE?! It is pretty outrageous....

HOW ABOUT WE JUST ACKNOWLEDGE SOME BIRDS, LIKE ECKIES, DON'T DO WELL ON PELLETS AND SHOULD NOT BE FED THIS STUFF... BECAUSE THERE CAN BE SERIOUS HEALTH CONSEQUENCES.

I GUESS NEXT YOU'RE GONNA SELL ME IRON SUPPLEMENT POWDER FOR MY TOUCAN?!

Wow, that's horrible. Jasper has had it so bad his whole LEG was kicking uncontrollably. It was awful and I felt so badly for him. He was NOT happy and obviously not communicating. That's ridiculous.

Anansi said:

While doing some research into eclectus dietary sensitivities and requirements prompted by a fellow member's questions about her bird, I came across this article on the Harrison's website: Eclectus, commercial bird food diets and ?toe-tapping? | Harrison's Bird Foods.

The article basically alleges that toe-tapping in eclectus parrots is normal behavior! A means of communication!

Seriously?!?

While I've been fortunate in never having had an ekkie who suffered from either toe-tapping or wing-flipping, I've seen MANY videos of ekkies who were indeed dealing with this affliction. And I fail to see how anyone who has viewed such videos, or seen the behavior in person, could possibly entertain the thought that such behavior was in any way normal! In light cases the bird is visibly uncomfortable, and in the worst cases is actively suffering.

If they'd wanted to argue that some ekkies are more sensitive diet-wise than others, and that there are eclectus who can thrive on a diet of Harrison's pellets, that would have been one thing. A rational enough basis for debate, whether or not one accepts the actual veracity of that claim.

But to imply that toe-tapping is a natural phenomenon? To dismiss the suffering of a bird as a means of communication? Really?!?

Smacks of willful ignorance to me. After all, there are corporate dollars to be made, right?

Click to expand...

I agree,
It amazes me that research (as it's sometimes called by uninformed authors) are not always backed up by legitimate research studies.
Or the studies are based on probabilities that don't stand up to actual logic or actual studies.

What 's even worse, studies I noticed are based on short term analysis, and rarely long term factual data, rather authors base their analysis on research
They conduct from sites (such as Wikipedia) that are NOT back up data or research.
That's not research.

And yeah, it is all about making money. Time to make a stand and put a stop to false research studies that carry no merit or actual facts.

Good post !!!!

Birdman666 said:

Hey, if Black Palms can tap on a stump with a stick...

Eckies can do it with their feet...

Must be some kind of mating display... :32: (OR NOT!)

Click to expand...

Yep,

Clearly they asked for advice on this toe tapping issue and the expert said, eclectus parrot......hmmm....I think I saw them in a video.......now let me remember.......they are the large black parrots aren't they?? Yes they are doing it to communicate, have you tried giving them a stick??

Perhaps they should have watched the video themselves before posting this garbage, anyone who sees the video will clearly see they have not checked their sources.

For the benefit of anyone who has not seen the video, the last parrot mentioned is a Palm Parrot, a beautiful and very intelligent bird. As part of its display, it does tap it's foot (this is nothing like the uncontrollable tapping of the eclectus), they also communicate by using a stick to drum on the hollow using their foot.

Pebbles toe tapped very briefly when I first bought her home, it was terrible to watch, I would hate for someone to allow an eclectus to suffer, thinking it was some natural behaviour

Cheers,

Camo

Birdman666 said:

Hey, if Black Palms can tap on a stump with a stick...

Eckies can do it with their feet...

Must be some kind of mating display... :32: (OR NOT!)

Click to expand...

Ha ha ha ha haaaa!

My wife has this old fashioned metal milk can on the porch and this
Wood pecker comes over and sits on top of it and pecks it. I heard this "ding ding ding ding ding" loud tapping noise and wondered what the hell is that noise......it was woody making an awful racket.

Dude will need some extra strength Tylenol after all that......I will too.

Also have a blue jay that attacks my side mirror on car....had to keep the car parked in garage. Birds have strange behaviors that can't always be explained.

Hawk said:

Birdman666 said:

Hey, if Black Palms can tap on a stump with a stick...

Eckies can do it with their feet...

Must be some kind of mating display... :32: (OR NOT!)

Click to expand...

Ha ha ha ha haaaa!

My wife has this old fashioned metal milk can on the porch and this
Wood pecker comes over and sits on top of it and pecks it. I heard this "ding ding ding ding ding" loud tapping noise and wondered what the hell is that noise......it was woody making an awful racket.

Dude will need some extra strength Tylenol after all that......I will too.

Also have a blue jay that attacks my side mirror on car....had to keep the car parked in garage. Birds have strange behaviors that can't always be explained.

Click to expand...

Well, blue jays are uber territorial, so he just wants to drive that "other" blue jay out of his territory... that one isn't hard.

I think the woodpecker may need glasses, however... (Either that or all that pecking has resulted in a coup counter-coup brain injury?! :32

Maybe he just likes the noise. Tusk always "dings" glasses since he discovered that wine glass tones change as the glass gets full or empty. He's rather fascinated by it.
And some do, and some don't. Coffee mugs and water glasses. Hmmm no ding. That one ding. Drink a little the ding changes... Hmmm... He drank some more, let's try it again. Hmmmm....
If you're drinking something, he doesn't want to drink out of it, he wants to test the tone of your glass...

Stephen, thank you so much for posting this. I find it completely disgusting as well, and wonder how many poor ekkies have suffered because their well meaning newbie owners read this and believed it. I am in shock.

I was just showing someone, and finally saw the date they listed it on their website (March 7th 2011).

Last night I was thinking ignorance, incompetence, clearly they will feel silly when they recognise they are wrong, I assumed this was something they had recently put on their website. Stephen your absolutely right disgusting is the only way to describe it!!!

With over 4 years to be corrected and check the facts, I find it hard to believe this can be anything other than a deliberate attempt to deceive their customers.

Given their failure to remove this after the replies from their own members, clearly contacting them would be pointless. I only hope that either anyone reading that site does some more investigation, and possibly stumbles upon this post, or the people at Harrison bird foods decide to remove it once they realise the potential damage to their reputation.

This is a link to the video they are referring to (I didn't list it initially thinking only Australian residents could view it):

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH0p6jL3cJc


The eclectus parrot is discussed at about the 3 1/2 minute mark, and the Palm Cockatoo, which is clearly the bird the "expert" is mixing details with, is described at about the 46 minute mark.

Here is a photo of a Palm Cockatoo, it's easy to see how they could confuse them with the Eclectus Parrot as they are so visually similar




Cheers,

Camo

JerseyWendy said:

Holy smokes, Stephen! I can't believe what I just read, and I can't believe that Harrison would publish such utter 'crappola' on their site. :11:

You're right, of course, it's all about $$$. And to see that an avian vet wrote this article has me really shaking my head.

I'm disgusted!!

I saw a familiar name in the discussion, did you see this, too, Stephen? (back from 2011, but still)

Click to expand...

"Crappola" is putting it mildly, Wendy. I couldn't believe it when I read it, either. I'd at least respected that brand before this! Just shameful.

And yes, my friend. I saw that familiar name as well.

labell said:

I am not a vet but I have seen it both in person and on video and you are right Stephen they are indeed SUFFERING! This article made me sick. There have been great strides in understanding these amazing complex parrots in the 25 years that I have been around them but we still have a long way to go. Erroneous information like this sets us back and will probably result in even more eclectus being kept on sub par diets and displaying these very disturbing symptoms. Males in the wild as well as captive birds tap with their BEAKS knocking on stuff not with their feet and wings. What a load of garbage! I am disgusted with Harrison and if I hadn't stopped buying it long ago this would have done it for me.

Click to expand...

EXactly, Laura! You don't need to be a vet to see it. It's obvious to anyone with eyes to see and even a modicum of common sense that those birds are suffering! Unless, of course, one is viewing the entire situation through the green-tinted lenses of money. Load of garbage indeed!

camo said:

Well you learn something new every day. I had no idea eclectus parrots had the most sensitive hearing of any living animal. A form of communication, it's such garbage it would be funny if it wasn't so potentially misleading.

So I guess Pebbles and Gizmo are not toe tapping, because they are hearing their native friends replies from a few thousand miles away

....Having enjoyed many a camping trip in the Australian bush, the idea of a toe tap being a form of communication is completely ludicrous, good luck hearing that toe tap over the 1000's of insects fighting to communicate with each other (it's not all crocodiles and kangaroos)

Cheers,

Camo

Click to expand...

Hahaha! Love how you made your points. And so very true!

Birdman666 said:

Uh-huh! Because pellets are a primary culpret in causing this problem in eckies... And they don't want eckie owners to discontinue using their pricey pellets...

And again, the vets were used to market the stuff, at least initially. So, yeah, "it's the best... Cuz we make money off it!"

it's a good pellet, but eckie's just do not do well on a pelleted diet. They need fresh chop mix... And even then, you need to watch for a reaction to certain foods, and discontinue those when it happens...

Just like the magic plucking elixers.

Buy this pricey stuff and your bird will magically stop mutilating himself... (or you'll just be out $50.00!)

any body want to buy a diet pill?!

Lose 50 pounds in 30 days, with no diet or exercise...

Click to expand...

I so relate to this on many levels. With regard to the toe tapping, Oliver tapped when he first moved in at 5 months old. He was predominately on seed and pellet with an occasional hunk of apple. I changed his diet immediately slowly weeding out seed and pellet all together, with the exception of a tbl (every now ant then) in his forager for entertainment... and the tapping totally ceased.

As for the diet reference, oh my gosh you are preaching to the choir. As an eating disorder specialist, I could grind my teeth to powder with all the shenanigans going on with surgeries, pills and fad diets, when all we have to do is eat and exercise just like our Eckies....

Birdman666 said:

...I'm declaring my position for other non-existent birds (uncontrollably 24/7) Please! Someone acknowledge my signal...

THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A NATURAL MATING BEHAVIOR AND TOE TAP GUYS... WHICH CRACKER JACK BOX DID THAT VET GET HER LICENSE FROM AND/OR HOW MUCH IS SHE GETTING PAID TO SAY THAT...

Click to expand...

Hahaha! So true! It really is a ridiculous assertion. But I reckon greed trumps common sense.

katie_fleming said:

Wow, that's horrible. Jasper has had it so bad his whole LEG was kicking uncontrollably. It was awful and I felt so badly for him. He was NOT happy and obviously not communicating. That's ridiculous.

Click to expand...

And the sad thing is that Jasper's case of toe-tap isn't even near the worst I've seen. They range from slight twitches to near spasms. Not even remotely like any possible form of communication.

Hawk said:

I agree,
It amazes me that research (as it's sometimes called by uninformed authors) are not always backed up by legitimate research studies.
Or the studies are based on probabilities that don't stand up to actual logic or actual studies.

What 's even worse, studies I noticed are based on short term analysis, and rarely long term factual data, rather authors base their analysis on research
They conduct from sites (such as Wikipedia) that are NOT back up data or research.
That's not research.

And yeah, it is all about making money. Time to make a stand and put a stop to false research studies that carry no merit or actual facts.

Good post !!!!

Click to expand...

Thanks, Michael. And no, it's not research when one decides on a favorable (and profitable) result and then works to find an explanation that seems to support it. Unbelievable.

Birdman666 said:

...Tusk always "dings" glasses since he discovered that wine glass tones change as the glass gets full or empty. He's rather fascinated by it.
And some do, and some don't. Coffee mugs and water glasses. Hmmm no ding. That one ding. Drink a little the ding changes... Hmmm... He drank some more, let's try it again. Hmmmm....
If you're drinking something, he doesn't want to drink out of it, he wants to test the tone of your glass...

Click to expand...

Off-topic, but VERY interesting! He literally learned the tonal changes with differing wine levels and waits until you drink some more before dinging again? That's just scary smart!

Terry57 said:

Stephen, thank you so much for posting this. I find it completely disgusting as well, and wonder how many poor ekkies have suffered because their well meaning newbie owners read this and believed it. I am in shock.

Click to expand...

Thank you, Terr! And yes, it's sad to consider just how many ekkies out there may be dealing with untreated toe-tapping and wing-flipping because the movements are being mistaken for signs of glowing health. Despicable.

camo said:

I was just showing someone, and finally saw the date they listed it on their website (March 7th 2011).

Last night I was thinking ignorance, incompetence, clearly they will feel silly when they recognise they are wrong, I assumed this was something they had recently put on their website. Stephen your absolutely right disgusting is the only way to describe it!!!

With over 4 years to be corrected and check the facts, I find it hard to believe this can be anything other than a deliberate attempt to deceive their customers.

Click to expand...

EXactly! This particular fact got me, too! They've seen fit to leave such obviously misleading info up there for 4 years running. Four years! Their greed defies description.

camo said:

This is a link to the video they are referring to (I didn't list it initially thinking only Australian residents could view it):

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH0p6jL3cJc


The eclectus parrot is discussed at about the 3 1/2 minute mark, and the Palm Cockatoo, which is clearly the bird the "expert" is mixing details with, is described at about the 46 minute mark.

Here is a photo of a Palm Cockatoo, it's easy to see how they could confuse them with the Eclectus Parrot as they are so visually similar




Cheers,

Camo

Click to expand...

Thanks for providing a link to the video and a pic of that near twin of the eclectus, the palm cockatoo. Very helpful.

drlisaort said:

Birdman666 said:

Uh-huh! Because pellets are a primary culpret in causing this problem in eckies... And they don't want eckie owners to discontinue using their pricey pellets...

And again, the vets were used to market the stuff, at least initially. So, yeah, "it's the best... Cuz we make money off it!"

it's a good pellet, but eckie's just do not do well on a pelleted diet. They need fresh chop mix... And even then, you need to watch for a reaction to certain foods, and discontinue those when it happens...

Just like the magic plucking elixers.

Buy this pricey stuff and your bird will magically stop mutilating himself... (or you'll just be out $50.00!)

any body want to buy a diet pill?!

Lose 50 pounds in 30 days, with no diet or exercise...

Click to expand...

I so relate to this on many levels. With regard to the toe tapping, Oliver tapped when he first moved in at 5 months old. He was predominately on seed and pellet with an occasional hunk of apple. I changed his diet immediately slowly weeding out seed and pellet all together, with the exception of a tbl (every now ant then) in his forager for entertainment... and the tapping totally ceased.

As for the diet reference, oh my gosh you are preaching to the choir. As an eating disorder specialist, I could grind my teeth to powder with all the shenanigans going on with surgeries, pills and fad diets, when all we have to do is eat and exercise just like our Eckies....

Click to expand...

I never knew Oliver initially toe-tapped. I'm so glad you were able to switch him over to a more wholesome diet. Btw, do you have any pics of Oliver to share with us? Haven't seen him in quite a while.

The linked article is a terrible obfuscation and crass commercialization. More horrendous is the propensity for inexperienced aviculturists to rely on the musings of a trusted brand.

While I have fortunately never observed toe-tapping or wing-flipping by my Eclectus, the dietary causal relationship is clear. Attributing these behaviors to natural traits is nothing short of malevolent.

Yeah. He seems to be fascinated by it.

He tests every glass to see if it dings.

CAGS seem to have this inherent need to study things. This seems to be one of his fields of study. He likes things that make noises.

Back on point:

There was ample evidence more than 20 YEARS BEFORE this crap was ever published that it was simply NOT TRUE!!! Therefore we can only assume that this is a DELIBERATE attempt by a vet to push product by posting something that goes against pretty much all the medical literature on this topic...

It really is like recommending an iron fortified diet for toucans... Because there are immediate and significant health consequences to the bird!

And PUH-LEEEZE... Comparing what is essentially a neurological siezure disorder to an oddball BP2 mating display?! The letters WTF come immediately to mind!!!