Twist in the plucking saga of Parker the Ekkie

chris-md

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Parker - male Eclectus

Aphrodite - red throated conure (RIP)
Sorry, slight long one

The barbering has begun again, for sure :(

As you may recall, Parker came to me as a seasonal plucker. He was all down in July, and by September his chest and vent completely feathered out and he was happy as can be with them. The vent area is now downy again and it's creeping up the chest. His flank and back never feathered out and remains downy.

I was contemplating his situation, and realized all the theories on Parkers plucking were wrong. I fixed his diet, he isn't in a busy house, the tv next to him is on for him when we're gone to work for the day.

My biggest realization happened today:

the leading theory is his barbering is due to hormones and I essentially assumed this to be true. Here's the kicker: he's already been hormonal, and there was no plucking.

Now, there is plucking, but absolutely no sign of raging hormones. No biting, no masturbating, no regurg...nothing. He's as sweet as can be!

So here's my though: he might suffer from avian equivalent of seasonal affective disorder. The timing of the start of barbering, at least this year, coincided with the winter solstice. Additionally, our house is darker than the typical house, as was the living room of his previous owner where his cage was kept.

What do you all think? Could some sort of seasonal lack of light lead a parrot to barber? Would there be any other symptoms to guide a diagnosis? FYI he also loves spending time chewing on the feathers he removes.

And sorry about the interchangeable use of plucking and barbering. I know they are different, and I think this is mostly barbering. I just got so used to calling it plucking.
 

JerseyWendy

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Chris, yes, it IS a possibility. Can you provide him with any artificial lighting? I will be the last to tell you that lights are essential, however, I can tell you that my gang is MUCH happier having their lights on, especially during gloomy, grey and/or dark days. I’m using simple swag lights with LED bulbs (5,000k).

IMO it couldn’t hurt if you gave it a try. What do you have to lose? :)
 

OOwl

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That's a super interesting theory. I have read until my eyes are bleeding about the proper lighting sources/bulbs/photo periods for parrots and there's just so much conflicting advice, even from veterinarians. I have a full spectrum bulb I use over my birds' cages that don't go outside as much, but I'm less than positive it is the correct bulb (I went with less UV because I didn't want to hurt my little guys' eyes). I think the field of avian lighting probably needs a whole lot more study. I bet your Parker would really benefit from some full-spectrum lighting therapy. It would be fascinating if that solved the problem. Hoping for positive results.
 

littleredhen77

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thats a great thought, and i hope it solves his issue! im wondering, does it even have to be a special bulb? i was under the impression that since windows filter out most uv rays anyways that having them in a window that gets direct sunlight will only make them hotter than they might like to be. my bird is in front of a sliding glass door but it never has direct sunlight beaming through at him, and some birds dont get outside much at all to get a chance to absorb any unfiltered sunlight. maybe its just the lack of time he can spend looking around? winter months are very dreary with so little light..id be curious to know if having any form of light on will make a difference or if its specifically the lack of sun light..?

i really hope you can solve this! i know how youre feeling, its heartbreaking! :/
 
OP
chris-md

chris-md

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Parker - male Eclectus

Aphrodite - red throated conure (RIP)
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This is really getting my wheels turning. i went back to parkers blood results from July when I brought him home (bloodwork below). I'm suddenly putting 2 and 2 together - correctly I hope.

Let's assume not much has changed in his blood chemistry. according to his results his calcium is through the roof.

Phosphorus incorporates calcium into the bones via vitamin D. My assumption (and where my argument crumbles if I'm misunderstanding physiology) is that his blood calcium is high precisely because it is not being absorbed. His phosphorus is low, but within limits. There's essentially enough phosphorus to do its job. so there must be another reason why his calcium is so high and not being absorbed.

Cause: low vitamin d! If he's not gotten enough uv light, no vitamin d to break down the calcium from an otherwise decent diet. As a result dietary calcium is not being broken down and absorbed, leading to high blood calcium levels. Alternatively his fruity pebble pellet diet could have been calcium fortified.

Conclusio: I really should set up some sort lighting set up, with timed incorporation of uva/uvb lighting

So am I getting warm here???

And Could I trouble you all for pics of your lighting set ups?

 
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GreatBlue320

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Even though there is quite a bit of conflicting information about lighting for birds, I think trying a light for Parker is definitely worth a try! Connect it to one of those plug-in timers and you don't even have to worry about turning it on and off!

Let us know if you try this and your conclusions after the trial period!

Parker is a lucky guy to have a parront who is putting so much thought into solving his plucking condition!
 

Anansi

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A few things. First, Chris, I think you are an exceptional parront. I love the fact that you don't just accept his plucking as a fact of life, but rather do all you can to find a solution. (Btw, you said he removes feathers down to the down. That would be plucking rather than barbering, I believe.) If there is a solution to be found, it is this kind of determined search that will uncover it.

I want to point out, though, that your thought that all of the theories of why Parker has been wrong is not necessarily true. Remember that barbering and plucking often start for one reason and then become a habit that is very difficult to shake even absent the initial catalyst. Also, your reasons for discounting hormones as a possibility are based on the assumption that the aggressive behaviors associated with a spoke in hormones would have to occur concurrently with an associated plucking behavior. But that's not necessarily the case, either. Maybe coming down from that hormonal spike is what triggers it.

I'm not saying that the cause truly is diet or hormones, just that they shouldn't be dismissed as potential culprits, either.

Your calcium theory is very solid. Vitamin D is indeed needed for the proper absorption of calcium. I don't have any special lighting for my birds, but I do make sure to take advantage of the Spring, Summer and Autumn months by taking them outside in their travel cages so that they can take in some unfiltered sunlight. (@Littleredhen77: there is some debate as to whether or not full spectrum lights have a benefit for birds, but if there is a benefit to be had, it would indeed have to come from one of these special bulbs. And you're right. Having your bird in front of your sliding glass doors doesn't offer any of the benefits of sunlight, direct or otherwise, since as you said, the UV rays are filtered out.)

Like Wendy, I don't think it could hurt at all to give it a try. Like I said, it's only through your determined kind of trial and error that an answer might be found. I really hope this idea works out. I'll be watching your threads for updates.
 

Scott

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Terrific thread, Chris! There are so many questions of avian physiology we have yet to decipher. Most of our birds live their lives indoors, far from their ancestral habitat. Parrots are not domesticated like dogs, and likely only reasonably well adjusted to our diverse environments. They are susceptible to many passive and active maladies we can thus far treat only symptomatically.

Kudos for contemplating some original research!!:)
 

Keatz

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It sounds like you're doing the very best you can for Parker. It's very frustrating to see birds pluck themselves and not be able to resolve the cause. My eclectus, Oscar, barbered his original tail off. I would often catch him chewing his own feathers. An eclectus breeder suggested that he might have been doing it because feathers are a great source of protein and when eclectus are molting, which Oscar was at the time, they are deprived of protein. On the other hand, my local vet seems to think it may have stemmed from a trauma he experienced before I got him, eg his dietary needs were not met in the nest or he did not receive the correct amount of light. She averred that eclectus are more sensitive than other parrots and a trauma from their childhood can easily manifest itself later on in the form of barbering and plucking, as well as other problems.
I too was concerned that Oscar wasn't receiving enough light. I put him in an aviary outside during the day but the sun was being blocked from the cage by an ivy bush. I cut the bush back so he'd receive sun, and he did not barber his second tail. I don't really know whether sufficient sunlight played a role in stopping him from doing it, since it's merely based on establishing a causal relation, but if you think that improper lighting is part of Parker's problem, I think you should by all means investigate it.
 
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chris-md

chris-md

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Parker - male Eclectus

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Cheese is high in calcium, maybe this is contributing to the high reading from giving it as treats?

Hi Skylala. This wouldn't be the case. These results were from his second day with me back in July. From what I saw, he was on fruity pebble type pellets and fed a lot of peanuts. The cheese is just in the last few weeks.


Great thread, Wendy, thanks! That got me reading more, and paying closer attention to how to safely execute this. Because he has a large dome top, keeping the lights a safe distance is not a primary concern. I'm also not keeping it on straight through but in half hour intervals.

Terrific thread, Chris! There are so many questions of avian physiology we have yet to decipher. Most of our birds live their lives indoors, far from their ancestral habitat. Parrots are not domesticated like dogs, and likely only reasonably well adjusted to our diverse environments. They are susceptible to many passive and active maladies we can thus far treat only symptomatically.

Kudos for contemplating some original research!!:)

Thanks Scott! This felt like a big revelation, so hopefully it can make a difference for him.
 
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chris-md

chris-md

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Parker - male Eclectus

Aphrodite - red throated conure (RIP)
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Stephen!

Saved you for last my friend, thank you for the kind words! You've been the biggest help to me here, I couldn't have done this without everyones help, but particularly your support :)

Now keep in mind I don't have the experience to draw on, I'm working only off my biological training, and a thought experiment. Heres why I have to disagree with you: its too patterned. You state the correct assertion that plucking often becomes habit. But when this is the case, the plucking is continuous. They don't take a perennially predictable break.

As you are well aware, all living organisms are stimulus driven. The fact that he does not at all respond to his feathers for so long indicates to me that, when he does finally does start pulling them, he is in fact responding to a very specific stimulus.

Thus, if it were diet, boredom, or any of those other issues, the plucking should by definition be a year long continuous issue, precisely because they are ever-present issues. By virtue of his seasonality, it is not a yearlong issue for him.

I could concede that the downslide from hormones may trigger it (I don't pretend to know). But he came out of his hormone funk two months ago, a week before thanksgiving. My understanding is that residual hormones exit the system in about 3-4 weeks tops. His plucking restarted outside of that timeframe. Right around Christmas.

This is what made me look at reasons other than hormones. I noticed the low light, and admittedly combined with my frustration with harness training and accompanying concern about how I'm going to get him outside during the summer.

I have the light rigged up, and it's at about 18 inches above his head which is basically middle of the manufacturers recommended distance range. I will keep everyone updated!
 
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chris-md

chris-md

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Parker - male Eclectus

Aphrodite - red throated conure (RIP)
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Even though there is quite a bit of conflicting information about lighting for birds, I think trying a light for Parker is definitely worth a try! Connect it to one of those plug-in timers and you don't even have to worry about turning it on and off!

Let us know if you try this and your conclusions after the trial period!

Parker is a lucky guy to have a parront who is putting so much thought into solving his plucking condition!

Shawna, we've been waiting for an update and photo dump of the most regal Baxter. PLEASE start a new thread and share him with the rest of us. I need my Baxter fix:)
 
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chris-md

chris-md

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Feb 6, 2010
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Parker - male Eclectus

Aphrodite - red throated conure (RIP)
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The biggest flaw in all this is the assumption that his bloodworm has not changed in all these months. For all I know his calcium could be normal and I'm chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause! (bonus points for anyone who gets that reference)
 

GreatBlue320

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Taylor - Black capped Conure (RIP 3.14.15 - miss you every day little "Girlie")
Even though there is quite a bit of conflicting information about lighting for birds, I think trying a light for Parker is definitely worth a try! Connect it to one of those plug-in timers and you don't even have to worry about turning it on and off!

Let us know if you try this and your conclusions after the trial period!

Parker is a lucky guy to have a parront who is putting so much thought into solving his plucking condition!

Shawna, we've been waiting for an update and photo dump of the most regal Baxter. PLEASE start a new thread and share him with the rest of us. I need my Baxter fix:)

You'd like a Baxter fix?! You don't have to ask me twice! Will start a thread tomorrow. :D
 

JerseyWendy

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The biggest flaw in all this is the assumption that his bloodworm has not changed in all these months. For all I know his calcium could be normal and I'm chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause! (bonus points for anyone who gets that reference)

Data from Star Trek? :D LMAO!!!!
 

Anansi

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You're welcome, Chris! I'm glad I could help!

You're reasoning is quite sound, and definitely holds its weight as the strongest current hypothesis regarding Parker's situation. (Or perhaps tied with a seasonal skin irritation due to lack of humidity.)

I actually did consider what you pointed out about the current seasonal patterning of the behavior rather than presenting as a year long issue, but I still did not completely dismiss some of the other candidates as possible (original) causal agents because of the strength of a parrot's cognitive associations.

Basically, if a certain stimulus in Parker's past occurred at the same time every year, is it not possible that his association of that stimulus with that specific time of year might actually be strong enough for his reactive behavior to survive the cessation of the original stimulus? That his mere anticipation of the stimulus event could be enough to trigger the plucking?

Nowhere near as likely, I admit, but still a possibility, I believe.

Btw, in conjunction with the new lighting, what if you were to also set up a humidifier in there? Just to cover the possibility of dry air being an issue as well.
 

Taw5106

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Chris, awesome thread!!! I'm interested in watching you progress. Mine don't pluck, they do not get the full rays of the sun, they are next to a window so they can see what's going on. We go out but not for long and not on a schedule. I think the fact about light has merit. What are you planning to do at this point?
 

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