Uglow started toe tapping - I think.

Hey folks. Hope everyone is doing well.

Already have an appointment to go see the vet tomorrow.
When I woke Uglow up this morning, he hesitated to step up. When I put him on the scale he started tapping his foot a bit and it just kept tapping.
I cupped my hands around him and whispered to him for a bit and got him to step up for his breakfast. His tapping slowed down while he was eating. here's a video I took of it. It's subtle.
I've been hanging out with him all morning and afternoon as a result and it seems to have stopped.
He's on a fresh food diet. No corn or sunflower seeds. no peanuts.
no rust or questionable metals in his cage or toys.
Anyway, going in to see the vet and hopefully get going on some answers and hopefully some solutions.

quick question, for those who've experienced toe tapping, is it usually a constant phenomenon or does it come and go. For example it's been a few hours and he hasn't shown any signs of it.

Not to be a complete downer of a thread, Here's the little man getting into his chop while I was working on it and a pic of him while we were on vacation.






I'll let you know how the vet visit goes tomorrow.
Thanks you

With Jasper it comes and goes. he hasn't had an episode in quite awhile but normally it's because (I think) I've been feeding him too much of something. It normally just lasts a couple hours then it's gone again for months. Also, it looks pretty minor in the video. Jasper's would start like that then either go away or it would get really bad then subside, so hopefully it doesn't get any worse!

Let us know how the vet appointment goes! Hope he's ok.

I have not yet observed toe-tapping, but your video was very helpful to understand the phenomena. Uglow certainly appears happy and healthy, hopefully the vet will give you some good information.

Yes, that's definitely a mild case of toe-tapping. As Katie pointed out, sometimes it's just a matter of him having eaten too much of one thing.

The one time Jolly experienced it was a day when I tried giving him raspberries AND blueberries in the same chop. Apparently they have something in common that results in a bit of an overdose when combined. He developed a mild case very much like what Uglow has, so from then on I have given him either/or. Never both. And it never happened again.

There are other possibilities as well, but let's hear what your avian vet has to say. Hopefully it's just a little overdose of something like in Jolly's case.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

hey guys, thanks for the input and insight into your experience with the tap.

Ok, so Uglow's checked out perfectly according to the vet except going over the numbers the vet spotted that his Calcium was at 7.7mg/dL when the range should be 8.0 - 12.0. He thinks that might be the culprit.
So to actually absorb Calcium, you also need Phosphorus and Vitamin D. it might be Vitamin D3. Anyway he gave me a powder supplement that he wants me to sprinkle a tiny pinch 3 times a week. And let him know in a few weeks how he's doing then ween off while I introduce some raw foods that contain those three ingredients. So kale has calcium but I don't have any phosphorus rich foods in his diet. that might be the culprit.

Hope this is useful info.

Uglow's tapping subsided for most of yesterday and came back a bit at night.
Today he's been tap free.
Is it common for it to come and go? or to show up for a day and disappear?

Anyway, thanks again.
-Ninos

I'm just curious here...is "toe tapping" an Ekkie thing, or do/can other birdies get this malfunction?


Jim

AmyMyBlueFront said:

I'm just curious here...is "toe tapping" an Ekkie thing, or do/can other birdies get this malfunction?


Jim

Click to expand...

As far as I know it's an Eclectus thing. But I suppose some medical conditions could lead to leg twitching in other birds. It just wouldn't be the same type of thing. for example, my vet said that a bird with extremely low calcium could develop seizures...maybe starting in the legs. Or a nerve or muscle problem which could be symptoms spurred by something else. But the Eclectus is the only bird I've read about that "toe tapping" is specific to.

Glad to hear the vet found a likely culprit and has some tools to help Uglow. Hope the tow-tapping subsides and never recurs!!

Uglow said:

Uglow's tapping subsided for most of yesterday and came back a bit at night.
Today he's been tap free.
Is it common for it to come and go? or to show up for a day and disappear?

Click to expand...

When Jasper had really bad cases of toe tapping it could take a day to go away, and yes it would come back periodically while it was leaving his system.

Uglow said:

AmyMyBlueFront said:

I'm just curious here...is "toe tapping" an Ekkie thing, or do/can other birdies get this malfunction?


Jim

Click to expand...

As far as I know it's an Eclectus thing. But I suppose some medical conditions could lead to leg twitching in other birds. It just wouldn't be the same type of thing. for example, my vet said that a bird with extremely low calcium could develop seizures...maybe starting in the legs. Or a nerve or muscle problem which could be symptoms spurred by something else. But the Eclectus is the only bird I've read about that "toe tapping" is specific to.

Click to expand...

When I first had Smokey,she had an episode where she was falling from her perch for no reason..I rushed her to her Avian docs and they discovered she was very low on calcium .
The doc gave her a shot and me a liquid to add to her water daily..It cured her.

Jim

Ah! Yes, low calcium would indeed do it. great job picking up on it and acting right away, Ninos! I'm hoping the supplement helps while you transition to phosphorous rich foods. Are there any in particular that you have looked into?

I've searched hard for a food source of Vitamin D3, but I've found nothing significant. So please let me know if you do find something in that category. The most abundant natural source is, of course, sunlight, as the sun's rays trigger production of Vitamin D3 in our birds' bodies. Unfortunately, this benefit cannot be gleaned through windows. Window glass filters out the elements of sunlight that would initiate this process. But once springtime rolls around, you'll have another weapon in your arsenal.

Please keep us updated on Uglow's progress.

Info I have re D3 is 15-20 min hard boiled egg yolk, sunlight a mentioned, sweet potatoes, dark leafy veggies. Have you a 'lamp' for Uglow to replicate sunlight?

Great news you have identified what is the problem.

From manufacturer! For your info.
UVB - Researchers have found that most birds benefit from UVB. Exposure to UVB allows birds to synthesis vitamin D3 in the skin through a special process involving the preen gland. Vitamin D3 is essential for proper calcium metabolism. This is necessary for normal growth, maintenance of strong bones and egg production. Lack of UVB can also lead to behavioural issues. UVA - "visable light": Birds have specialised retinas that enabel them to see UVA, helping them to recognise mates, locate food and identify different species. Using lighting that emits UVA can help curb feather picking and othe destructive behaviours. Without UVA birds are deprived of the full colour spectrum they see in nature and are colourblind! UVA is necessary for the psychological health of your bird.

Anansi said:

...transition to phosphorous rich foods. Are there any in particular that you have looked into?

I've searched hard for a food source of Vitamin D3, but I've found nothing significant. So please let me know if you do find something...

Click to expand...

plumsmum2005 said:

Info I have re D3 is 15-20 min hard boiled egg yolk, sunlight a mentioned, sweet potatoes, dark leafy veggies. Have you a 'lamp' for Uglow to replicate sunlight?

Click to expand...

Thanks so much guys. His tapping has subsided completely so far. He still had veterinary ptsd as of last night.
OK so I've tried to study this forwards and backwards. By "backwards" I mean I was trying to see if he was eating anything that was blocking calcium as well.
Boy, I wish all creatures were like pandas-everyone has their own food and you're done with it.
So for Phosphorus. The best thing I could find that he can actually eat is pumpkin seeds, lentils (also contains calcium)
Lentils, cooked
1.00 cup
(198.00 grams)Calories: 230
GI: low
NutrientDRI/DV
molybdenum330%
folate90%
fiber63%
copper56%
phosphorus51%
manganese49%
iron37%
protein36%
vitamin B128%
pantothenic acid25%
zinc23%
vitamin B621%
potassium21%

Pumpkin Seed info
The Surprising Levels of Nutrition in Pumpkin Seeds

Now for vitamin D3 that's a tough one. Pretty much everything that has it he can't eat. Hard boiled egg is the only one I could find that was substantial.
I'll keep looking and update here.

Now Oxalates is what blocks calcium.
the most concentrated oxalate sources (all listed in terms of milligrams per 3-1/2 ounces) include spinach (750-800 mg), beet greens (600-950 mg), almonds (380-470 mg), Swiss chard (200-640 mg), cashews (230-260 mg), and peanuts (140-184 mg). It is important to note that you will often find very different results in plant oxalate content due to differences in varieties, planting conditions, harvesting conditions, and measurement technique. It is also worth pointing out that the leaves of plants almost always contain higher oxalate levels than the roots, stems, and stalks.

This is all a balancing act and obviously moderation is key. I'll keep studying this post my findings.

cool saturday morning...when I should be Christmas shopping.

Why is the Eclectus diet so tricky?
Google tells me their intestines are long and metabolizing differently? Original habitat very specialized? Possible lack of genetic diversity or such?
Whst say y'all?
Such a challenge... geez... I just throw some Harrison's and leftovers to the Rb and he's good to go.

plumsmum2005,
sorry didn't mean to ignore your "lights" post. I have small 50watt grow light but I think I need to upgrade possibly. I'll write my vet and see what he thinks. The grow light does make the sweet potatoes next to it sprout leaves. and the one behind don't. so it's doing something.

Abigail,
thanks for rubbing it in.

They're just different from most parrots in the captivity. Can't comment about their gene pool but ekkie's diet has been on the radar for a long time so I'm not sure if that's it.

their closest relatives from my readings are the Tanygnathus (great billed, blue-napped and Müller's.) I tried to research them for some input but they're so rare out west with outdated literature.

Another thing is you have variation from one ekkie to another. one has allergies to one thing while another doesn't. There's a general understanding of what they need and then each specific bird's diet needs a little fine tuning. Luckily Uglow seems to be in good health. but even a mild deficiency long term can be detrimental. So I think I just have to stay on top of it.

Wow.
Well, I admire all the extra time, research and courage that it must require to keep up with all of that.
We have a saying in Spanish that some people are too mean to get sick. That would be the Rickeybird.
I'm glad things are looking up for you!

That's OK.
Beets, raw Nutrition Facts & Calories

This should be some nutritional data on Beetroot. Have a look, seems pretty good food to me re phosphorous and magnesium. Egg and beetroot sarney and job done! LOL.
Some side notes:- Vit D3 promotes proper calcium and phosphorus absorption and utilisation.
Phosphorus and magnesium should be in equal amounts but both should be half to calcium, leading into Beetroot data.

Re calcium you can crush up the egg shells, can Uglow have a little low fat yoghurt?

Is the fact that in the nutritional data you show the iron and copper levels are fairly substantial Ok?

Other oxalate-containing foods (listed in milligrams of oxalate per 3-1/2 ounces) include:

• other green leafy vegetables not found in the high-oxalate examples above (5-150 mg)
• berries, which typically contain between 10-50 mg (with the important exception of gooseberries which can contain 60-90 mg)
• lemon and lime peel (80-110 mg)
• nuts besides the high-oxalate nuts listed earlier (40-350 mg)
• legumes (10-75 mg): with legumes, it is also worth noting that lentils, split peas, black-eyed peas, and garbanzo beans tend to fall at the low end of the spectrum with 10 mg or sometimes even less, while black beans, navy beans and soybeans tend to fall at the higher end with 50 mg or more)
• grain flours (40-250 mg): with grains and grain products, it is worth noting that brown rice flour and brown rice pastas are among the lowest in oxalate content
• pasta noodles (made from grains) (20-30 mg)

Re lamp I have Zoo Med's Avian Sun 5.0 UVB Compact Fluorescent bulb which I use periodically. Plum seems to be perkier when it has been used, something or nonsense who knows?

Have a look at Kellogs Rice Krispies (#3) data https://www.healthaliciousness.com/...08077&t=08077&h=08065&s=100&e=30.000&r=33.000

Good to hear Uglow is improved and always love to see pics.

plumsmum2005 said:

That's OK.
Beets, raw Nutrition Facts & Calories

This should be some nutritional data on Beetroot. Have a look, seems pretty good food to me re phosphorous and magnesium. Egg and beetroot sarney and job done! LOL.
Some side notes:- Vit D3 promotes proper calcium and phosphorus absorption and utilisation.
Phosphorus and magnesium should be in equal amounts but both should be half to calcium, leading into Beetroot data.

Re calcium you can crush up the egg shells, can Uglow have a little low fat yoghurt?

Is the fact that in the nutritional data you show the iron and copper levels are fairly substantial Ok?

Other oxalate-containing foods (listed in milligrams of oxalate per 3-1/2 ounces) include:

• other green leafy vegetables not found in the high-oxalate examples above (5-150 mg)
• berries, which typically contain between 10-50 mg (with the important exception of gooseberries which can contain 60-90 mg)
• lemon and lime peel (80-110 mg)
• nuts besides the high-oxalate nuts listed earlier (40-350 mg)
• legumes (10-75 mg): with legumes, it is also worth noting that lentils, split peas, black-eyed peas, and garbanzo beans tend to fall at the low end of the spectrum with 10 mg or sometimes even less, while black beans, navy beans and soybeans tend to fall at the higher end with 50 mg or more)
• grain flours (40-250 mg): with grains and grain products, it is worth noting that brown rice flour and brown rice pastas are among the lowest in oxalate content
• pasta noodles (made from grains) (20-30 mg)

Re lamp I have Zoo Med's Avian Sun 5.0 UVB Compact Fluorescent bulb which I use periodically. Plum seems to be perkier when it has been used, something or nonsense who knows?

Have a look at Kellogs Rice Krispies (#3) data https://www.healthaliciousness.com/...08077&t=08077&h=08065&s=100&e=30.000&r=33.000

Good to hear Uglow is improved and always love to see pics.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. I think you and I were looking at the same website.
I think i'm basically gonna increase the the leafy greens and add lentils to his legumes mix. I think he's taking in enough calcium but not enough phosphorus and vitamin D to absorb it. The other thing, I'm gonna try to cut back on oxilates rich foods. I got him a slightly brighter UVB light. We'll see if that makes a bit of difference.

Just a to add to the discussion here (or complicate it further) one thing I realized is that Uglow is now fully flighted which I'm starting to wonder if I should adjust his diet to accommodate that. like if you started running on a regular basis, your body would need more nutrients to keep up.

Anyway, the tapping is gone and he seems to be back to his normal self.
thanks again guys,
Ninos

Uglow said:

...Just a to add to the discussion here (or complicate it further) one thing I realized is that Uglow is now fully flighted which I'm starting to wonder if I should adjust his diet to accommodate that. like if you started running on a regular basis, your body would need more nutrients to keep up.

Anyway, the tapping is gone and he seems to be back to his normal self.
thanks again guys,
Ninos

Click to expand...

So glad the tapping is gone! looks like your vet is very much on point.

As for diet differences with Uglow now being flighted, if you're already giving him a healthy diet, I think you'll be fine. The main difference between Jolly (the frequent flier) and Maya's (the only-when-necessary-flier) diets is that I can allow a wee bit more leeway indulging Jolly with fattier treats like nuts or even seeds. I still keep the amount low, but since he burns off so much fat and so many calories I can afford to give him just a little more.

after watching the video Max is doing the same thing.
will keep an eye on him tonight and see where it leads me in the morning.