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Old 10-11-2017, 05:14 PM
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Re: Urgent - Picking at feet

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Update: I'll try this for a couple days for dinner (Jasper is eating it now)

- Pomegranate
- Carrots
- Endives (new for Jasper, hope he likes them)
- Hard boiled eggs (can he have these multiple days in a row?)
- Hot peppers
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 10-11-2017, 08:25 PM
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Re: Urgent - Picking at feet

Quote: Originally Posted by katie_fleming View Post
...BTW I feel like such a noob asking this, but if pomegranate will be considered part of his dinners now, can I give more than 1 tablespoon? That's all I ever gave before, it was more just adding a bit of fruit on top of the rest of his food. Can I give more? If we're starting with say, carrots, pomegranate, sprouts, and some green I can find?...
Not a noob question at all. You're questioning everything diet-wise right now... which is exactly what you should be doing. Main thing with the pomegranates is to make sure you don't have so many in his meal that he can fill up on that alone and ignore the less exciting things in his dish. I don't know how much he eats, so it's hard to say whether more than a tblspn would be okay. But the key here is to make sure he has to eat the other stuff in order to be properly full.

Quote: Originally Posted by katie_fleming View Post
Protein 29 - LOW. It had been 30. (Avg is 32-42)
Calcium 1.80 - LOW. It had been 1.83 (Avg is 2.02-2.98)
Bile acids 12 - LOW. It had been 13 (Avg is 30-11)

AST 381 - HIGH. No prev number until I compare at home (Avg is 144-339)
CK 4574 - HIGH. No prev # right now (Avg is 135-410 -- um, did someone make a typo?!!)

I am not surprised with these results. While there are no drastic changes since April the Protein/Calcium are still on a decline.

Given that we're trying to find potential culprits in his diet, and knowing he's too low on these, what foods do you recommend? The sprouts I just started several days ago should have protein correct? And will start giving him some more hard boiled eggs/shells.
A few things, here. The protein threw me off a little, as the protein issues that have been known to lead to toe-tapping and wing-flipping, insofar as I've read, are related to high levels, not low. So while legumes could still be the culprits for a quirky type of sensitivity issue, we're probably no longer looking at them for their protein content. And as such, they're no longer all that high on the list of suspects. (But how the heck is his protein low with the amount of legumes you give him?!? It just doesn't make any sense.)

In my mind, calcium remains the prime suspect for a dietary issue. (And PDD for a non-dietary cause.)

The AST (Aspartate Aminotransferase) and CK (Creatine Kinase) levels are the most worrisome to me. Worrisome enough, in fact, that if the vet originally told you everything was fine, I have to wonder if they're not reading you the wrong results now. (Unless the numbers just aren't significant enough to warrant my fears.) But the problem here is that a high AST value can indicate damage to the liver. And high CK levels indicate muscle injury. (Though certain medicines or supplements can elevate this figure as well.) And both are often elevated in cases of liver and/or muscle damage.

Again, though, relative numbers are important, here. While I know what high or low may mean, I do not know what constitutes a high enough number for this to become a legitimate concern. But at the very least, you have some further questions for Jasper's vets.

Quote: Originally Posted by katie_fleming View Post
Update: I'll try this for a couple days for dinner (Jasper is eating it now)

- Pomegranate
- Carrots
- Endives (new for Jasper, hope he likes them)
- Hard boiled eggs (can he have these multiple days in a row?)
- Hot peppers
I think this is a great start, though I would not give eggs multiple days in a row. Some might give 2 or 3x a week, but I personally lean toward the extremely cautious side and would give, at the absolute MOST, once a week. (Though I tend more toward once or twice a month with Maya and Jolly.)

If the toe-tapping and wing-flipping disappear with this diet, the next thing I'd add would be the sprouts since he has a protein deficiency (unless you were read the wrong report). And broccoli would be great for the calcium deficiency. (As well as boiled egg shells. The shells you can throw in every day. Just make sure you're the one doing most of the egg eating.)

Keeping you and Jasper in my thoughts and prayers, Katie.
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katie_fleming (10-12-2017)
  #103 (permalink)  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:07 AM
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Re: Urgent - Picking at feet

Thanks Stephen. I'll stick with ~1 tbsp for now of the pomegranate and monitor how much he's eating of everything else.

As far as eggshells go to try and help with calcium, if I grind them so they're a lot smaller and sprinkle that over his food do you think it will increase his chances of ingestion? Because right now I don't think he's eating the shells. Trying to figure out another way for him to eat them.

Yes it's very strange his protein is low considering he had red beans, pinto beans, navy beans, chick peas (do they have protein?). In the meantime are the sprouts "good enough" before I start adding in those again?

I'm at work but when I'm home I will upload the PDF of his results.

So I noticed after dinner last night within a fairly short amount of time he began toe tapping again and wing flipping increased as well. By the morning toe tapping was gone, wf moderate. I realized he's been getting carrots in both his breakfast and dinner. And Tuesday when he had bad wf/tt right after dinner I remember seeing he had eaten a big chunk out of a carrot. Maybe not be the culprit at all but something I had noticed.

A lady on another Ekkie group told me: "Also as soon as Jewel's calcium gets a bit out she does attack her legs and tt/wf. I have been using Salus liq calcium on M.W.F. and it has been stable for a year now." ------ So good to know if it's low it can also cause the same issues. I've never heard about using liquid supplements. I wonder if this would be worth trying to help give him a boost?

It just seems peculiar that shortly after dinner his issues are worse. But if I take out carrots and eggs tonight that only leaves him with pomegranate, hot peppers, and endives (not sure if he ate those last night).

And just to re-cap he's on these meals atm:

Breakfast:
Bell peppers
Zucchini
Carrots
Celery (I can pick these out, this batch was already made up a couple days ago)
Lentil sprouts
Mung bean sprouts
Green apple

Dinner:
Hot peppers
Carrots
Endives
Hard-boiled egg
Pomegranate

I have kale and parsley for him, I can add those in as well but not convinced he'll eat any of it.

This is a huge wall of text! Sorry for the length. Appreciate everyone's continued support.

Last edited by katie_fleming; 10-12-2017 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:18 AM
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Re: Urgent - Picking at feet

You tried adding in more fruits? He may enjoy those as a morning meal then having the veg for the evening. That was how I had Rio's day set up, so he had the sugars and sweet stuff in the morning then veg in the evening (with his snacks served after dinner and pellets being left during the day)
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katie_fleming (10-12-2017)
  #105 (permalink)  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:13 PM
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Re: Urgent - Picking at feet

It seems like you're making some progress Katie even though it might not "feel" like it. So one thing I've read (please double check this) for a "complete" protein from legumes you need to include something like rice. Uglow get's beans and rice for his complete protein. as for kale, Uglow won't eat it in the chop but he'll attack a leaf tied to his tree stand and eat about 5% of it in the process. So you might need to get a little creative with it.

calcium,
Uglow started toe tapping when his calcium was barely under the recommended marker.
You'll need to try to get some vitamin D(3) in there. That's crucial for absorbing Calcium. Getting vitamin D SUCKS. So sunlight of course works but how often can you do that? I also use full spectrum bulbs but that's just a guessing game. Egg yolk in limited quantities. low fat organic cheese in limited quantities. I'm talking like two or three bites. As an additional precaution I've been including 5 pellets of Goldn'obles and 5 Harrison's fine long life pellets just in case they have something in there that I'm missing nutritionally. They're both organic and have no colors or fortification. I know it's controversial but he normally only eats one or two so I'm totally ok with it.

I would also consider foods high in Phosphorus since that's also related in absorbing calcium and phosphorus is important for nerve health. So brown rice is good for that. The rice will also work with your legumes for the complete protein you'll need. Cooked lentils and pumpkin seeds also have some.

for your mix, snap and snow peas could be beneficial. calcium, Vit A, vit K, manganese, B1, A, C, B2, B6, protein, foliate Plus he might enjoy opening them up. organic and raw. no cooking.

Finally I see no foods that are high in Oxalates. That's good. Oxalates block calcium. But you're good there.

Again, I'm absolutely not an expert. Please verify what I wrote if you plan on using any of the advice I'm giving. I really hope it's just his diet and you can crack the code so you guys can get your lives back. we're rooting for ya.
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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:32 PM
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Re: Urgent - Picking at feet

Thanks so much for your input.

I used to give him snow/snap peas on occasion but since right now I've stripped his diet right down I'm feeling overwhelmed with do I only offer a select few a day and see how he is for awhile, or do I now try to get in as much protein and especially calcium as possible.

Maybe the liquid calcium supplement could be good to try and kick things up a bit for a couple of weeks. He's such a picky eater, so any leafy greens are going to be next to impossible. I will try weaving them through his bars tonight and also chop them up.

I will buy a bunch of eggs and cook them to get the shells (I don't eat eggs so I'm the problem here) and maybe crush them up and sprinkle over his food since he doesn't seem to care for them.

Do you give your brown rice cooked? I always cooked his. I could re-introduce next week perhaps. I'm worried about giving him dinner again tonight as the past 2 nights right after he had bad toe tapping

I'm still at work and I can see hes had his foot lifted for quite awhile. I have a pit in my stomach sitting here helpless. I hope it's not as bad as I'm thinking by the time I get home.
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:24 PM
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Re: Urgent - Picking at feet

Hugs to you Katie.. I wish I had something beneficial to contribute,but I have not,just my prayers and well-wishes for your little man.






Jim
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Jonesy, a cute Goffin 'too
that had to be rehomed :-(

And a Grey 'teil, BB...a.k.a. The Beebs
that was 18 weeks old 5/20/2016,






Rest in peace,my precious Smokey..4/2015 at 28 years young
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katie_fleming (10-12-2017)
  #108 (permalink)  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:32 PM
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Re: Urgent - Picking at feet

So sorry you're going through this. I hope this get's sorted out sooner than later for both of you. So the brown rice is cooked yes. it's only about a teaspoon of rice and a teaspoon of beans. I hesitate to comment about the liquid calcium. I'm not a vet and I don't want to say one way or the other. BUT, when Uglow's calcium was low I was given Osteoform powder and was told to give him a pinch sprinkled on his food. I did it once a day for about 2 weeks while I worked on getting his calcium/vit D/Phosphorus levels up in his diet. And my pinch was extremely conservative. BUT, Uglow's toe tapping was pretty mild and went away in about 24 hours. His Calcium was 7.7mg/dL. 0.3mg/dL less than the recommended 8.0 - 12.0.
IF Jasper's calcium levels are extremely low then yeah, maybe the liquid is the way to go. Again, I can't stress enough how not-an-expert I am on Eclectus health and sentence structure apparently.

So if you're trying to get calcium from leafy greens but he won't eat them, butternut squash and sweet potato might be the way to go. Plus if he's eating those carrots, he's already a fair amount of calcium. And so if it's still a calcium deficiency then it's an absorption issue which is where your vit D3 comes into play. Ugh, hope I haven't confused things.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 10-12-2017, 05:19 PM
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Re: Urgent - Picking at feet

My heart aches for you and Jasper. I wish I had something more helpful to add. Hang in there. You're doing literally everything you can. You'll get it figured out.
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:30 PM
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Re: Urgent - Picking at feet

Thank you guys for all your comments, they really mean a lot.

When I got home from work things were as I suspected after seeing him on camera. My heart is just broken. Bad WF/TT and he did a number on his poor feet. He's pretty much ignoring his toes but the ankles/around the back, sides...I just want to cry.

I went ahead with the lady's suggestion from the other Ekkie group. I actually talked with her on the phone for awhile. I mixed in ~0.5cc's into his "snacky time" mix b/c I knew he'd eat it.

Uglow - Do you by chance happen to know what those numbers convert to for mmol/L? Jasper's results were 1.80 mmol/L and they're saying the normal range is 2.02-2.98

I just called my boyfriend to ask him to drive an hour round trip to help me put the cone back on him. I can't risk him losing a foot. He's not bleeding anywhere but the sides/back of his feet are just raw. I am so upset right now. I don't know why this keeps happening and I don't know what to do. I am just sick.

Last edited by katie_fleming; 10-12-2017 at 10:31 PM.
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