to fly, or not to fly....

I know im opening a can of worms here but I want to hear what everyone has to say on both sides of the issue. Wrangler has finally grown in enough wing and tail primaries that he can physically fly (not sure where we are on actual ability and muscle strength). He's figuring this out right now and every day his skills get better. He can fly/coast horizontally 30+ feet and is beginning to hop/fly vertically up to about 2 feet. This has really increased his ability to get into things. The kitchen counter is now in range as are most of the tables in the living room. This weekend he was hell bent on trying to destroy just about everything he could find there and despite 5 attempts to redirect and engage him with his toys he persisted until he earned a timeout. I cant remember the last time he had one....

His personality is also undergoing a marked change at the moment...he's more destructive, and persisitant, and confident. Could be because he's more comfortable and secure, part of his evolution as a rescue. I can now touch feathers without too much protest but up until a month or so ago they were still firmly in the "no go" zone for him. 15 months to be able to handle him physically with ease. No flinching, no beak warnings (mostly), he's not thrilled about it but doesnt have the same reaction he did over the last year. He's more about wanting things his way, and wanting what he wants (to do) despite corrections, diversions, and treat training opportunities. Actively making the wrong choice. EG; he was on his low perch (appx 2-3 inches high) on the raised bar counter but decided that knocking over the oil bottles below was a good idea (this isnt the first time). I caught him doing it and put a finger between him and the bottles...waved it and told him no, not yours, not for birdies. Then i encouraged him to get back on his perch counter with a command and an almond. This worked once or twice but then he decided the bottle tipping was a better option than the almond. Willfullness is not something Im used to from him. Yeah, he's broken a few things, spilled some things...Ive had to move things out of range---but now that he can fly, it's only a matter of time until he figures out he can still get to them.

He gets a LOT of out of cage time. He's almost never locked in, except for the recent time out, or when we are both gone for the day---6 hours or more. He sleeps upstairs at night...no cage. Usually he's content to hang on/in his cage until I get home but he's made a few wanders into the living room to hang out on the stair railing overlooking the front door--nothing destructive or dangerous. My husband makes a reallllllllly poor baby/bird/dog sitter so yesterday was the first time in ages that he was confined when I went to work and someone was home. This is going to be the new rule. Too much for him to get into now that he's more mobile and confident. Which brings about the issue----

If I clip him again (he came to me clipped and plucked to the point he couldnt fly) he will have more freedom around the house. I know what he can and cant get into and can make those adjustments. Flighted will mean nothing is safe/secure, including him. Not sure how the removal of flight capabilities would affect his newfound attitude/confidence--if it's flight based or simply comfort based. He hangs with us up in the umbrella spokes when we are on the patio relaxing or grilling--that cant happen any more, not without a harness...He goes on the dog walk..even if its just a quickie. I take him into the garage when Im working on a project or doing laundry. He has a perch in every room. He gets to run errands on a whim...he's so easyy to pick up and plop on my shoulder, but flighted requires a harness every time which means its not as easy, or quick....so he'll miss out on a lot of things he used to do simply because of the convenience factor.

Flighted is something I believe in, in general...but it would be a drastic change in lifestyle and freedom for him. Significantly more time in cage for his safety, less time hanging with me, less outside time. He's got a pretty good life right now---tons of freedom, lots of people time, lots of experiences with walks and errands...

Im not taking this lightly, and Im not yet ready to make the decision. Im going to give it a few more months to see how it goes and to see if he really can fly, if he uses that skill (i recall that Maya is not a secure flier, unlike Jolly), and how that affects his personality. Your thoughts are important to me..things i may not have considered, or may be emphasizing too much/little. Please respect others opinions, I dont want this to become controversial, just informative. Thanks in advance...

Janet and Wrangler

Are frigging seriously posting this right now after we finally had a cease fire? sigh....

read from about here forward.

http://www.parrotforums.com/amazons/69586-wings-clipped-no-4.html

You just jumped in after a huge debate, not your fault.

Basically you need to weigh the options. Both choices are right and both choices limit options. it's all about well.......read the debate. It's actually pretty good.

Sorry...didnt see/read that thread. I'll remove mine.

ALso If your bird is safe being flighted I would go with that...if you have a reason to clip...go with that....you are the owner its on you to make the right choice. Myself I clop for safety and so we can go in the truck and go shopping together and he can see his nose pierced goth girlfriend that loves birds....though its getting winter here now...so....Just read the above thread and see what the fuss is all about.

coopedup said:

Sorry...didnt see/read that thread. I'll remove mine.

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no no

freedom of speech read and go with it I was just like *sigh* Your thread is just as valid!!!

so by now you read the other thread.....where do you stand?

I never posted in the wing clipping thread I don't think....But my birds are not clipped and are allowed to fly around the living room. I believe it helps strengthen their muscles and is good for them to be able to fly. However, it only works because 1. They step up and are willing to be put back in their cage. If they weren't and were constantly trying to fly away from me, I might reconsider. I am however against free-flight or letting them fly outside without a harness, it is very dangerous and there are SO. MANY. CROWs. in my area, they simply would not last five minutes without being chased/attacked by a larger bird.

I do think that if a bird is attacking members of the family/dive-bombing or there are constantly doors being opened and closed, then I would reconsider getting a wing clip. It can be beneficial in some situations.

Id just say the safety of the bird would be most important wouldn't it? I'm a new owner so I don't really know much about the debate of wing clips ect or wanna upset anyone.

Birds health and safety first would be my best guess.

Mine is reluctant to go in his cage the last 4-5 nights and I let him fly often but I'm gonna battle through and train him even if its harder work x

I don’t think it’s as big a deal as you imagine. I suspect, true to their nature, wrangler will likely opt NOT to fly a whole lot, especially given his lack of flight in his current life. I really don’t think your day to day life will change much at all. I’d leave it and see what happens.

Parker insists on walking everywhere, even though he’s got his wings in tact and is doing flight drills again. He has never flown voluntarily. Only ever on command or out of fear. NEVERfrom his cage to get to anything/anywhere.

Well, it depends. My birds love to fly laps just for fun, and always fly when they want to go somewhere. They only walk on the floor if there's food there, and will always fly back up to me if I put them there. Some birds have never fledged so they're not used to flight, so for those birds, it may not make much of a difference anyway.

My Parrot is 4 and a half month old and was flying soon as I got him. Has he fledged then?

Yes, if he has learned to fly he has fledged. Is he currently flighted?

FlyBirdiesFly said:

Well, it depends. My birds love to fly laps just for fun, and always fly when they want to go somewhere. They only walk on the floor if there's food there, and will always fly back up to me if I put them there. Some birds have never fledged so they're not used to flight, so for those birds, it may not make much of a difference anyway.

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A lot of larger birds, ekkies included, prefer to walk over flying in the house. Not all, but many. It’s a problem here, because half the time we don’t hear Parker coming and have come within half an inch of stepping on him several times. I’ve instituted corrective measures to curb walking.

My red throated conure used to fly everywhere.

We are still training on step up ect but he just fly's around the room to his favourite spots he likes to perch on. Usually on top of the tv so if that's what you mean by flighted then yeah. He often likes to fly and I let him but we arnet training flight yet, were not ready x

bit of a tricky one really.

Like you say unflighted he would get more time with you and you would have to worry less about things getting broken or him getting into things. One thing I will say is clipped or not he should have a harness on if outside. As I'm sure you have seen, clipped birds do fly off at a moments notice.

On the other hand his confidence could be attributed to his newfound flight and it will definitely help him gain some muscle and exercise

Ultimately, do what you feel is best for him. If it means the nice stuff needs to be put away then the nice stuff on the sides goes away until he learns what is and isn't okay for him to play with

There is nothing he can knock over or fly into or anything at home where he fly's, I have child proofed everywhere. I'm going to target train him very soon and work on flight recall after more basic training. It wouldn't be until next summer if I decide to take him out on a harness. I don't think I will, ill just get him a huge aviary for the few hot enough days we have over here in England as you are well aware x

chris-md said:

FlyBirdiesFly said:

Well, it depends. My birds love to fly laps just for fun, and always fly when they want to go somewhere. They only walk on the floor if there's food there, and will always fly back up to me if I put them there. Some birds have never fledged so they're not used to flight, so for those birds, it may not make much of a difference anyway.

Click to expand...

A lot of larger birds, ekkies included, prefer to walk over flying in the house. Not all, but many. It’s a problem here, because half the time we don’t hear Parker coming and have come within half an inch of stepping on him several times. I’ve instituted corrective measures to curb walking.

My red throated conure used to fly everywhere.

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I am currently trying to "teach" Amy to fly. She never fledged.Right now we are practicing flapping and she is really good at it,but she just looks at me like I'm coo-coo when I ask her to jump/fly off her perch stick.
She's been accustomed to shoe-leather express..or maybe bare foot express and prefers to just mosey on her own power...or hitch a ride on my shoulder.



Jim

In my opinion a flighted bird is a healthier bird. Physically, but more importantly, mentally. I think it also gives a bird one more reason to keep those flight feathers attached where they belong.
There are always exceptions, but as bird owners, I think it is OUR job to adapt and modify as much as possible; the bird is already forced to adapt to so much for us. The only time they lose "out" time is if I'm cooking, for obvious reasons.
With all that being said, if you are not certain that you are creating a safe environment for a flighted bird, then you should not endanger your pet.

AmyMyBlueFront said:

I am currently trying to "teach" Amy to fly. She never fledged.Right now we are practicing flapping and she is really good at it,but she just looks at me like I'm coo-coo when I ask her to jump/fly off her perch stick.
She's been accustomed to shoe-leather express..or maybe bare foot express and prefers to just mosey on her own power...or hitch a ride on my shoulder.



Jim

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Same story with my BFA. Never fledged and not shaping up to be a good candidate for flight later in life. I might have better luck learning to fly myself than trying to train this bird to fly I've basically given up hope at this point. It's not like he's missing out really. He knows no different and is accustomed to climbing or hitchhiking with a human to get where he'd like to go. He sure does love to flap his wings while he holds onto my hand though!

I adopted my bird when he was 10. Had I go him as a younger bird, I would have let him fledge but at this point in his life, he's basically completely adapted to his "disability" and still a confident, happy, playful bird. I encourage people who have the chance to fledge them while they're young. It is more likely than not you'll encounter difficulties or find it impossible to train to fly later in life should you ever change your mind. Like riding a bike, they never forget how to fly, so even if you clip in the future, you can always flight again but their brains capacity to learn flight seems most primed before puberty (the younger, the better!).

Duke's flighted. We're able to provide a fairly safe environment for him to do so, and we have dogs so I'd rather he be able to get away. I like that he's independent and able to get around on his own, too. And after him losing his last owner and being stuck in his cage for months afterward, I'm reluctant to put him through anything else.

It's a tough call to make. It's good that you're thinking about it a lot. I think you'll find the answer that suits you and him best.