Identification of sub-species of eclectus

Roy83

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Hello to everyone
I am glad to join this wonderful forum
I have a question about the Identification of my new baby eclectus
Just bought him, he is 5 month old
The seller says he is pure "red sided" but I want to be sure,
Have anyone have an idea what sub-species is he?
By the way- he is weight about 295 grams (I got him 2 months ago and he was 260 grams but in the last weeks his weight is around 290-300 - stable)
What do you think about his weight? Is he going to add some weight and grow some more or is it his final size?
 

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Anansi

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Hello, and welcome to the Parrot Forum family!

He's not yet at his full size and such, so it's hard to say. Not that I'm an expert on sub-species identification or anything. But that said, I would note that, at 295 grams, he is on the small side even for a Solomon Island eclectus. And SI are the smallest of the ekkie sub-species. (And Red-sided are definitely bigger, for the most part, than SI's.)

My ekkies are both SI. Considerably older than yours, as Maya is almost 7 years old and Jolly is 6. But both range between 388 and 410. (Maya toward the heavier side of that range and Jolly toward the lighter side. But female ekkies tend to be heavier than their male counterparts. And Jolly is a flier.) So 295 would be on the smaller size if you're looking at a SI, and possibly concerning if we're talking a pure Red-sided. (My dearly departed Red-sided, Bixby, ranged around 425-430's, and he was actually born with a disease which stunted his growth.)

But, of course, every sub-species can have examples that are significantly smaller than the typical average. This can be due to misidentification as a pure representation of the sub-species or and other number of factors. My suggestion would be to take your bird in to a vet (certified avian vet if at all possible) to find out if he is a good weight for his age and body frame.

Something to note is that the pectoral muscles should be just about flush with the keel bone for a bird at its proper weight and such. If the bird is underweight, the keel bone will be far more prominent. And if the bird is underweight, you won't be able to feel the keel bone at all without depressing slightly.

To help with identification, you might also want to provide pics from the back. Wing tips for SI's, for instance, will almost reach the tail tip.

Here's a site that might help: The Eclectus Group: male comparison table
 
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chris-md

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Everything Stephen (Anansi) said.

What I’ll add though, is one major indicator of SI vs all others is the length of the tail. The tip of the solomons tail will be right about even with the tip of the wings, it won’t jut out very far below the wings, therefore being obscured.

With “others”, the tail extends very noticeably below the bottom tip of the wings, extending by as much as 3” below the wings (on the high end of estimates).

The one photo where I can just barely make out the tail, it appears to significantly extend below the wings, supporting the idea that he is at least in part “other”, but such things as adult weight also factor in as well. So without knowing the parents, if you’re going off just the baby in front of you, you’ll have to wait until it is fully grown.

Do you have reason to doubt your breeder?
 
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SailBoat

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My experience is with Amazons. That said, Amazons rarely have adult plumage, nor weight until deep into their third year and with some species taking as long as seven years. IMHO a five month old is a bit young to be near adult weight. But Anansi (although modest) is our Eclectus expect around here.

Assure you are providing a diet derived for the Eclectus species. To my understanding it is far more specialized and failure to follow it can result in medical issues.

Breeders that make statements regarding the purity of their Parrots should be able to provide documentation to support that kind of Statement.

Not sure where in this World you are, but if you plan to travel with your Boy, you should obtain Hatch documentation from your Breeder based on CITES requirements. This will assure that when you do elect to travel, you will have the 'foundation' documents for the full documentation set required for travel.

Enjoy.
 

throwingcopper33

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Female Solomon Island Eclectus
I got my female SI eclectus when she was 3 months. She is now 5 months. She has averaged an increase of 20 grams a month. Your bird seems to be doing the same. I bet he is perfectly healthy.
 
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Roy83

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Thank you guys and I'm sorry for the late reply
I live in Israel so it is a different time
I took my eclectus to the vet and we did all the blood works- he is 100% healthy according to the vet
About the weight-, you can definitely feel the bones in his chest so he is underweight
However, like I said- I got him at 260 grams and now (2 months later) he is 295-305 give or take…

His diet is – fresh salad twice a day (at least 7 types of veggies and fruits) and Germinated
And once a day- fresh fruits
I attached pictures of his plates
And also some additional pictures of him- to help me understand if he is a mix or pure S.I. / red sided eclectus

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23381d1575626458-identification-sub-species-eclectus-img_20191118_165127.jpg

23382d1575626468-identification-sub-species-eclectus-img-20191130-wa0014.jpg
 

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Anansi

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No worries on the late reply. We have members all over the globe, so we're not strangers to different timezones.

I'm really glad to hear your guy has checked out healthy. It's always good when you rule out the possibility of any health issues first thing. Looking at the toothbrushing pic (I LOVE that one!), I agree with Chris' take. SI wingtips would generally be just about flush with the tip of the tail. So, chances are, he's at least not a pure SI.

Here's a shot of my male SI to give you an idea what I mean. See how much closer the wingtips are to the tip of the tail?
zmStfdd.png


But you'll have a better idea as he gets older. Your guy's dimensions might change yet. His eye color will also be very telling, but I don't think the true adult eye coloration comes in until around a year old or so. Right now his eyes are probably really dark.
 
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Roy83

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Thank you my friend
His eyes are very dark right now
However, in the sun you can see the brown-gold ring
Right now, I have two concerns
The first it is about his size and weight- but from you telling me I understood that at 5.5 months he still have time to gain size and weight.
The second- and it's not really related to the first- is the bond with the other members of the family
Most of the time he is with me because my office is in my house and he really loves me- always searching for me and comes to my office,
But- With my wife- he is 70% ok- not so friendly like he is with me, once I few times when she trying to touch him he tries to bites her fingers
And the same thing happens with my 4.5 year old son
He can hold him and pet him but once in few time he attacks his fingers and tries to bite him

Do you guys think that's a problem that will pass with the time? (He with us for less than 2 month)
 

charmedbyekkie

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Tbh, it's not common to find pure subspecies nowadays. too many times the males are too hard to judge by themselves and breeders often have to gauge by their hatch sisters.

And does it really matter? Only if you're a breeder that is looking to breed the yellowest tail on the female Vos, I suppose. If you're looking to keep as a pet, there's not much difference between subspecies, except in looks and maybe some breeding preferences. Talking is really based on the individual bird, size is somewhat dependent on subspecies but still within a few inches and 100g of each other.

And there are still different breeders that argue about what the various subspecies are (think Aru and Biak).
 

charmedbyekkie

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The second- and it's not really related to the first- is the bond with the other members of the family
Most of the time he is with me because my office is in my house and he really loves me- always searching for me and comes to my office,
But- With my wife- he is 70% ok- not so friendly like he is with me, once I few times when she trying to touch him he tries to bites her fingers
And the same thing happens with my 4.5 year old son
He can hold him and pet him but once in few time he attacks his fingers and tries to bite him

Do you guys think that's a problem that will pass with the time? (He with us for less than 2 month)

Ekkies are not famous for being cuddly birds. Quite a few ekkies just don't like being touched (just like some humans don't like hugs).

My advice? Your ekkie is as smart as a human toddler. If you keep forcing something someone doesn't want, of course they're going to try to communicate that they don't want it and they'll do it in whatever way that'll make you listen. If that's throwing a temper tantrum or negotiating, they'll do it.

When your ekkie indicates via his body language (head angled, leaning) that he doesn't want something, does your wife or son listen? Or do they continue to force an interaction he doesn't feel comfortable with?

I don't force interactions - I don't get bitten. In fact, our ekkie listens to me practically every time.

My partner, he tries to force petting. And sure enough, he rarely gets warning anymore - our ekkie learned that the only way my partner listens to stop petting is to bite my partner. Can't say I blame him.
 

SailBoat

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A coupe of tools that will help:

Change your Vantage Point:
It is Never the Fault of the Parrot!
It is Always the Fault of the Human!
By changing to this Vantage Point, you will more quickly determine what you are doing wrong and correct it!

Hands are a general problem as 'birds' tend not to connect our total body as being us. They quickly connect our heads as being us and everything else is kind of like a tree with additional stuff. To that point, Hands and Arms are likely seen as a Snake. Birds have a natural fear of Snakes and therefore it takes time for them to be comfortable with the idea that any part of your tree is safe.

Petting is a common issue and as state above, not all Parrots like being petted. Add a fear of being attached by a Snake or crushed and it makes sense.

Also, remember that unlike dogs, Parrots have no natural reason to trust us. We have to continue to provide them a reason to trust us...

Only good things happen when Humans are around! And, those that are not the favored Human gets to provide the best treats!

Enjoy!
 
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Roy83

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Thank you
Honestly- they try to force themselves on him
Maybe this my mistake with the bonding progress
Right now, he is super gentle with me and he always tries to find a way to reach for my hands.
At the beginning, he bit me a lot
But with the breeder's advise I forced myself on him and gave him, at least 3 hours a day on my hands-at first my hand hurt but after 2 weeks he become nice and cuddly
Now I think he is too cuddly - he always searching for me and every time I walk in front of his cage he goes from the branches on top toward me and tries to reach me
So I thought- hey- if it worked for me, maybe it will work the same for my son and wife
But- I guess I was wrong…
 

charmedbyekkie

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Thank you
Honestly- they try to force themselves on him
Maybe this my mistake with the bonding progress
Right now, he is super gentle with me and he always tries to find a way to reach for my hands.
At the beginning, he bit me a lot
But with the breeder's advise I forced myself on him and gave him, at least 3 hours a day on my hands-at first my hand hurt but after 2 weeks he become nice and cuddly
Now I think he is too cuddly - he always searching for me and every time I walk in front of his cage he goes from the branches on top toward me and tries to reach me
So I thought- hey- if it worked for me, maybe it will work the same for my son and wife
But- I guess I was wrong…

I see, in that case, I do recommend your family reading through this: https://www.exoticdirect.co.uk/news/how-train-bird-using-positive-reinforcement

It gives a good breakdown of the different training approaches and results of each.

Do also keep in mind, your ekkie is young - a baby. If you got him at 3mo (since you've had him for 2mo and he's 5mo now), then he might be seeing you as a parental figure (he might come asking for baby from you if anything goes wrong).

Keep a close eye on your interactions, and just a heads-up for the hormonal phase that comes with their puberty. That cuddliness might change, or he might act out if you are touching him inappropriately. Keep mind that ekkies aren't allopreeners (they don't preen each other) and that touching anywhere other than head and feet is often a sexual cue in mature birds (stroking the back and most definitely the tail is a sign you're interested in a relationship a human cannot fulfill for him).
 

Anansi

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As regards your family interacting with your ekkie, here is something else to consider. You are clearly his person. So if you are in the room while any of your family members are trying to handle him, he is far more likely to reject their attempts. Why? Because he is viewing them as obstacles to the one he really wants to be with. Know what I mean?

One of the things that you can do is let your wife and son work with him when you are both out of his line of sight AND range of hearing. If he so much as hears your voice, it could be enough for him to want to discourage anyone who is not you.

Augment their interactions with a lot of shameless bribery. Find his favorite treat, as Steven (SailBoat) suggested, and have them reward positive interactions every time. If they do this between meals, it will be even more effective. He will be treat-motivated and will come to associate tasty treats with your wife and son. Once that connection is made, he will become more positively disposed toward them.

You can also work more closely as a family unit with this training. The three of you sitting together on the floor, for instance, and using the treats to motivate him to go from one of you to another. The point here is for him to become used to the idea of going from you to them and back again. (The back again is VERY important, as he'll be more likely to cooperate if he understands that going away from you does not mean losing access to you.) Since this is a comfort exercise, don't have them push any petting and such. The more comfortable he is, the more likely this exercise will be to succeed.
 
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Roy83

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Thank you
Those are great tips
(Now I understand that I was wrong all the way- because I never let them pet him if I am not near them)
We will those tips
 

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