My white front amazon has seizure

IloveGB · Jan 1, 2010

Dear all here, I have a problem, my white front amazon joined my family in Jan 2008, her left eye was damaged when she was with her 1st owner and she was on complete sunflower seed diet.

When we took her, it took us a long time to switch her diet to now she is on harrison pellet with fresh fruit and vege. She was sick a few times these two years and she had the 1st seizure in Oct 2009 and there have been 6 times till now (normally at night time). We took her to the vet, conducted the blood test and found everything normal (include calcium). In her case, she has that seizure for just around 5 minutes and then resme normal, eating good too.

I am kind of worry as I don't know what to do and what I can help her, my dear little ceature. Since she was sick a couple times, her molting this year take much longer, she started molting in summer and seems still going on. Would that be a cause? Anyone has similar experience, grateful for any advices that can help.

Many many thanks!

antoinette · Jan 2, 2010

Sorry not able to assist
Hoping some members are able to help
You have my prayers.
Keep us informed
Take care

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Jan 3, 2010

Calcium levels are tricky things to measure because, unfortunately, blood calcium levels are not reliable. The problem with them is that they vary according to the different species (but we have not been able to identify, yet, which these specific levels are), they also vary according to gender, season and, to make matters worse, they fluctuate during the day. But, I would assume that if your bird is not a chronic layer, has no metabolic disorder, is eating Harrison's on a regular basis, and is not consuming veggies high in oxalic acid regularly, calcium levels should not be the cause.

If you would kindly take the time to answer the following questions, I could get a better idea of what is going on and might have a couple of suggestions.

1. How old is she?

2. What kind of veggies does she eat on a regular basis and how often of each?

3. What were the blood tests the vet did (CBC? complete avian panel? bile acids? metal toxicocity?) and what were the results?

4. Was she put on phenobarbital? If so, was there a subsequent test to measure pheno levels?

5. Was she put on any supplements?

6. What were the health problems she has had in the last two years?

7. What kind of medications was she put under when these problems happened? (name of the medicine, dosage and total period of time she took it).

Riley's mom · Jan 3, 2010

Hello! Do you know what kind of bloodwork was run? Maybe an avian panel? There are several tests that can be run, with the avian panel usually the starting point. The sad part is, with each added test, the cost also rises. Are you seeing an actual avian vet? One that works strictly with birds only? Sometimes thats the better way to go. Good luck. :green1:

IloveGB · Jan 3, 2010

Hi Bestriz, thanks for your concern and kindness! I am deeply touched! I was so depress after she had seizure so many times and every time she had seizure, my heart broke. Thank God, she seems to be able to recover very soon. My hubby and I talked about the case again over the weekend, although we are not sure, we found from her track record, she had seizure since October when we introduced Harrison to her diet, before that she was on Zupeem pellet, so we decided to switch back to Zupeem to see if it helps. BTW, here are the answers:-

1. I am not 100% sure about her age, as I mentioned, we adopted her Jan 08 when we were told that she was 2-y/o but when she visited the vet, the vet suspected that she is older, so I guess she should be around 6-y/o
2. In both AM and PM, after the pellets, we give her fresh vegge which varies. Normally in AM (1-2 types): carrot, broccoli, dark green vegetable, bell pepper; normally in PM (1 only): tomato, pumpkin, sweet potato, apple, pear, papaya.
3. The vet said he had tested the calcium level and the electrolyte level
4. Sorry, what is Phenobarbital?
5. As per the vet’s advice, we put a little spirulina on the vegge given to her
6. Here is her medical record:
March – April 08: we found her sneezing and tail bobbing, went to the vet and was given medicine (cannot recall all of them, but should include baytril
Nov 08: She had serious breathing problem, seems like cannot breath, took her to the vet, conducted the x-ray, blood test, fluorescent test etc, couldn’t find the reason, just that her air sac seemed to be pressed by something, suspected to be fat as she used to be on seeds, no medicine, switch to pellets to drop weight
Jan 09: revisit the vet for follow-up, conducted a test on thyroxine level, found to be normal, but the vet suggest to give her some thyroxine to help her moulting. She was not eating after taking the thyroxine, aggressive and weight dropped significantly, so went back to the vet and discontinued the thyroxine
August 09: one day she seemed to be tired and not as active as usual, took her to a vet, heard mucus in her lung, given baytril for 5 days. She seemded to be better but noticed her tail bobbing again, revisit the vet, given sporanox for 14 days (in Sep)
Oct 09: 1st time seizure on 12 Oct 09

A million thanks to all there and thanks for saying prayer for us. Shall keep you posted on the progress and thanks for the advices in advance.

IloveGB · Jan 3, 2010

Hi All there, one more question. As we moved apartment in Jan 09, there is minimal sunlight at our apartment as we face north-west. We are thinking if there is anything to do with lesser sunlight which we were told to be essential for calcium formation. We have bought a UV ligh bulb but not sure about the usage, like how long each day, any good or bad in doing so. Anyone using an UV light, appreciate your advices.

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Jan 4, 2010

Is your vet an avian vet? Because there are some things that don't add up. For one thing, unless you forgot to put it on your posting, it seems as if the bird has not had any bloodwork except for the one in November (what kind of test was it and what were the results?). Also, unless I am misunderstanding, he/she seems to try things that are really not very wise (like giving the bird thyroid hormones without the bird having thyroid problems -a big no no, if you ask me- and something that made her unwell) or useless (baytril for five days when the normal treatment is two weeks) or borderline dangerous (like prescribing sporanox without checking her liver values -all fungicides are poison in one way or another and they all have to be filtered by the liver- even though she had labored breathing -which could have been caused by an enlarged liver).

I suggest your vet gets a complete avian panel (around $90) as well as a bile acids (around $120) and a metal toxicology test (price depends on how many metals you test for).

Seizures in birds come from different causes but the most common are:

a) hypocalcemia (when calcium levels are too low -calcium regulates muscle elasticity and the 'signals' between the cells that make them work, when there isn't enough, muscles go into spams, which is nothing more than a seizure)

b) metal poisoning (can be from keeping her in a galvanized or rusted cage, from her swallowing a piece of a toy, etc)

c) liver malfunction (could be fatty liver from a bad diet, could be from aflatoxin poisoning from eating mouldy seed, etc - it can only be ascertained through a bile acid test)

d) brain damage (this could be from trauma to a tumor)

e) severe infection (the CBC would tell if the white cell count is high and whether there are toxic cells in there BUT if the infection is fungal in origin, sometimes the white cell count is not high -like when there is an aspergilloma, for example- so the vet has to go with other symptoms -like labored breathing, for example- and do other tests -like a choanal -throat- cytology to see if there is any indication of a fungal infection in the respiratory tract)

Phenobarbital is a medicine that suppresses seizures but it's always better to find out what is causing the seizures first because pheno is real bad for the liver.

In the meantime, you can give her supplements that would help her condition regardless of what the cause is:
Wheat germ oil (just a drop on a piece of organic whole grain bread) for vit E.
L- tryptophan, L-tyrosine and N-Dimethylglycine (just a little sprinkle on her soft food) -these are amino acids that affect the neurological system, specifically, neurotrasmitters, which are the ones that go wacko when there is a seizure.
I would also tell you to use a mild tranquilizer, like linden tea to be used as her water (two teaspoons of dry linden flowers in a mug of hot water -do not boil!, just steep).

Also, stop using the UV light immediately! They are not good for birds, they were created for amphibians. If you put them close enough for them to work, they burn their corneas (and this is not hearsay, a tiel that belongs to a colleague of mine went blind because of them). I just finished an article about lights and birds that took me months of research and I have found that the only lights that benefit birds available commercially, at this point in time, are all the Verilux fluorescent tubes except for model TF32T8VLX4. The rest are no good for one reason or another (wrong k temperature and/or low CRI and/or inadequate UV output).

Auggie's Dad · Jan 4, 2010

There are certainly points here to discuss with your vet, but before we jump to conclusions about the vet doing things inappropriately realize that the posted 'medical record' is just ILoveGBs dates of when they went to the vet. The vet may have done, and quite likely did many tests and checks that were not discussed here.

We should make sure our pets are in the care of experienced knowledgeable and caring vets. And ideally the vet could explain every detail to us. But for pet owners that do not have a degree in veterinary medicine such explanations could be very time consuming or just plain confusing.

Choose a vet wisely, and if you have doubts about your choice get a second opinion from another vet. However there is a reason veterinarians have MANY years of schooling and continuing education - we do have to trust them to a certain extent. Or if not at least they should be given the benefit of the doubt - if something seems odd ask them why they did it before jumping to conclusions.

IloveGB · Jan 4, 2010

Many thanks to all there, esp Beatriz! I see some light and at least I have the direction. Beatriz, I have sent you a pm and would like to learn more about the supplements, sorry for bothering you so much! Thank you for your comment on the UV light, too, I am actually in the middle of seeking help from prople around to get one from overseas, thank God!

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Jan 5, 2010

Auggie's Dad said:
There are certainly points here to discuss with your vet, but before we jump to conclusions about the vet doing things inappropriately realize that the posted 'medical record' is just ILoveGBs dates of when they went to the vet. The vet may have done, and quite likely did many tests and checks that were not discussed here.

We should make sure our pets are in the care of experienced knowledgeable and caring vets. And ideally the vet could explain every detail to us. But for pet owners that do not have a degree in veterinary medicine such explanations could be very time consuming or just plain confusing.

Choose a vet wisely, and if you have doubts about your choice get a second opinion from another vet. However there is a reason veterinarians have MANY years of schooling and continuing education - we do have to trust them to a certain extent. Or if not at least they should be given the benefit of the doubt - if something seems odd ask them why they did it before jumping to conclusions.

Auggie's Dad is 100% correct in that nobody on a forum can replace an Avian Vet. I explained on my pm to the OP that I can help her understand the condition, suggest tests, explain what they measure and what the results mean and offer suggestions on alternative care (diet, supplements, herbals, etc) but I have no formal training whatsoever and she should take the bird to the vet for further diagnostic testing. I just happen to have learned a bit from caring for so many birds for many years, doing constant research and from lots and lots of consulations with my own avian vets. I also have access to two other rescuers experience and, when it comes to birds, it's the same as with everything else, the larger the volume you deal with, the more conditions/diseases/problems you become familiar with.

What forums (and people with experience) are good for is to guide bird keepers through the process because most people would not know what to question, which tests are needed or how to interpret the results of different tests or whether something suggested by the vet really makes sense or not.

On the other hand, I also always recommend a healthy dose of distrust when it comes to avian or exotic vets diagnosis and treatments and most especially when it comes to diet and behavior. This is not because I think I know more than they do because I know for a fact that I don't, but I do know that they do not really study avian dietary needs or behaviorism in school so, unless they have had multiple birds for many years and learned from their own observations or conducted controlled studies, their advice on these subjects is usually based on what they have been told by somebody else (in most cases, the bird industry which, as any business, is not pro birds but pro profit); that avian medicine is in its infancy so nobody knows enough about anything related to avian medical care and. like my grandmother used to say: Four eyes see more than two. I also personally know of several cases where Board Certified Avian vets have given the wrong diagnosis and treatment and ended up causing the bird's death (two of these involved Spanish Timbrados bred by me and both of them could have been easily saved if the right treatment had been given).

Ergo, my personal advice is: Take the bird to a good avian vet, one that inspires you confidence, one that takes the time to explain things to you and has no problem answering any and all questions you might have. BUT, at the same time, do your own research to make sure that he/she is right on tract and not missing something.

Riley's mom · Jan 6, 2010

I'm sorry to whomever this may bother, but I just have to say that I take offense at the 3rd paragraph in Beatriz last post. There are some wonderful STRICTLY avian vets that have specialized in their schooling on avian and exotics. They also attend many, many continuing education courses on these wonderful creatures. Just like with people medicine, things happen, but things are rapidly changing in vet medicine as is in people medicine, with new treatments, meds, diseases, etc. While many small animal vets do treat avian and exotics, in my opinion, a vet that specializes strictly in the avian and exotic field, would be my first choice, and is. But that doesn't mean the other vets are not keeping up with the latest in avian medicine. They most certainly are up to date with diets and behavior issues, and they don't need to own a bird to get their education. I agree with AD, that a second and sometimes third opinion may be necessary for peace of mind and clairfication. There is so much research that goes on daily in the avian and exotic field, that the vets are getting more and more knowledge on avian care. Thats all I have time for now. Need to get to work. Sorry, just had to get this off my chest.

Auggie's Dad · Jan 6, 2010

Thanks RM, I also agree. There are MANY wonderful vets that are skilled and qualified with birds, they just have not jumped through all the right formal hoops to be officially avian certified. This is especially seen in smaller towns and rural areas.

If a vet has avian certification then you know (kinda') that they really know birds. But if they don't have the certification that doesn't mean they don't know birds.

Neither of the two vets I've trusted most with Auggie were (officially) avian certified.

There are also some vets who JUST jump through all the right hoops to get as many certifications and credentials as possible. In such cases the certification may not mean a whole lot.

Getting to know your vet, their experience, qualifications, strengths, weeknesses, and attitude are extremely important. Veterinary board certifications are certainly an important piece in that puzzle, but they are one of many.

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Jan 7, 2010

I agree. My avian vet of four years is not board certified but she is very knowledgeable and kind and, best of all, she admits it when she doesn't know the answer to something and does a lot of research and consultations with other avian vets. She is also very open to new ideas and listens very carefully to what you have to say as the caregiver of the animal. I trust her and like her very much. But not everybody is like her and I've gone through.... oh, maybe 10 or 12 different vets for my birds since I first started using them exactly twenty years ago.

But, if you don't question, if you don't do your own research, you don't know whether what the vet is telling you is correct or not and that's where the healthy distrust becomes necessary. I once rescued a sick OW that ended up dead because of the wrong diagnosis and treatment done by a Board Certified AV (he had aflatoxin poisoning and she kept on treating him only for secondary infections). I trusted the vet knew what she was doing and, by the time I changed vets, it was too late for him and I will never forgive myself for his needless death! If I had known more about parrots diseases, if I had done research on his symptoms, if I had asked around and found out on my own, if I had not trusted her completely, I would have realized sooner that she was wrong and might have been able to save him. But now, I'll never know and I'll always feel guilty about poor Baby who had such a terrible life (he was an ex-breeder) and ended up dying under my care for no other reason that I did not question the vet's diagnosis thinking she knew what she was doing...

Riley's mom · Jan 7, 2010

Like I said before, mistakes DO happen. But if you can't trust your vet, why bothering going? The general public can do all kinds of research on SYMPTOMS, via the internet, books, etc. But vets have access to other forms of research that the public does not. Most vets, whether they are avian certified or not, that treat birds are up to date on the illnesses that could possibly affect birds, and the treatments needed. I don't know of any bird owner that has gone through so many vets. And I would never think of second guessing my vet. :green1:

Beatriz Cazeneuve · Jan 9, 2010

Riley's mom said:
Like I said before, mistakes DO happen

Yes, they do but when you are talking about a professional in the medical field and your mistake causes an unnecessary death, it's not the kind of mistake that one can shrug off with a "Mistakes happen". Human doctors get sued for malpractice, reviewed by a board and could lose their license for this kind of mistake but not vets. There are no mechanisms in place for redress when a vet makes a fatal mistake, the most that you would get is your money back and that's small consolation. So the only course of action is to stop using them.

Riley's mom said:

The general public can do all kinds of research on SYMPTOMS, via the internet, books, etc. But vets have access to other forms of research that the public does not.

What forms of research would that be? Because, as far as I know, everybody has access to the same information and accessing it is just a matter of money, desire and time.

Riley's mom said:

I don't know of any bird owner that has gone through so many vets. And I would never think of second guessing my vet.

Click to expand...

LOL - Well, that might be because I am not a bird owner. People in rescue deal with lots of sources that a regular owner would not. Plus, anybody who had birds twenty years ago and lived in the NYC greater area would have ended up using a lot of different vets because, back then, there weren't that many avian vets in private practice and, if there were, we did not know about them because we did not have internet so we all ended up at the Animal Medical Center in Manhattan. And, everytime you went, you got two vets, one teaching and one practicing, and everytime they were different from the ones you had gotten on your previous visit. Plus, right now, I go to three different clinics for my birds, one has my own vet but the clinic is for dogs and cats so they don't have the infrastructure to treat birds; the second one is the emergency one (open 24/7/365) and has two AV's which I no longer use on a regular basis because they both screwed up setting broken wings on two different birds; and the third is the specialized one (only for birds) where they have three AV's which I use for special testing but, again, not on a regular basis because this is the clinic where they misdiagnosed the OW... so you could say that, right now, my birds have 6 different vets. And that's nothing! I deal with five clinics and 11 vets for the dogs and the cats and that's not counting the low cost spay and neuter clinic in NJ which I use on occasion!

But I would also not think of second guessing my vet... what for? She tells me what she thinks without me having to guess.

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L Greer · Mar 29, 2010

see my post... my bird is on Keppra. It is the drug of choice. I have run every test going. If it was calcium your bird would seizure all the time. Rule out all environmental things and go from there. I wish you luck.. I am in the same boat.

http://www.parrotforums.com/congo-timneh-greys/3796-seizuring-african-grey.html

My white front amazon has seizure

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