Polyuria Puzzle

SennieSlave · May 15, 2014

My 10 year old Senegal has had polyuria for a while now. When it first started, a few months ago (along with excessive hyperactivity), I took him to my avian vet (twice) and all his tests came back normal. The vet said it may be because he was so hyperactive because of hormones (due to a mild Winter), that the polyuria was a side effect of this.

His droppings returned to normal but he has still been a bit hyper. I've wondered of that's because he's just gone through a large moult and has a lot of blood feathers coming through. Also, because of Spring, he's a little frisky.

But, this week, his polyuria is back with a vengeance. Apart from his first poop of the morning (which is normal, apart from a couple of tiny bubbles in - but that may be because he's held himself all night) - all his others are mostly water, with just a small amount of faeces and urates. I even dropped the fruit and veggies out of his diet today and kept him on just pellets (Harrisons) and a small piece of wholegrain toast and a couple of nuts but his poops are still mostly water. Not sure whether to give him his grains later or not.

He's not lethargic (to say the least), is eating fine, still singing and dancing and being a brat - but this polyuria is worrying me. I've so far diagnosed him with - thyroid disease, giardia (not sure if that's common here in the UK), kidney disease and liver disease - such is the joy of internet searching.

He's also picking at the tops of his legs and under the wings - but he does have some feathers coming in there, so not sure if that's why. He's never plucked before but now has little bald bits. I've been spraying him with Aloe Vera, in case he's itchy. He's bathing fine.

I rang today, to get a vet appointment but the avian vet is away until the end of May and hasn't thought to get in a replacement. I'm not sure whether to wait until he gets back, or try to find someone else and ask around to beg a lift to get there.

It's such a puzzle, as he doesn't have any lethargy or fluffing up, or not eating - like all these illnesses I've been looking at, says he might. It's only the polyuria (and slight picking) which is concerning me - oh and the hyperactivity. but that is calming down a little.

I'm spending hours looking at parrot poop pictures on the internet and trying to work this out. I was going to get some Aloe Detox but not sure if that's ok to give, if he hasn't been diagnosed with anything.

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas, I'd be really grateful - as I'm a neurotic Mum, every time he poops.

RavensGryf · May 15, 2014

My Red Bellied has had polyuria for some time now. His blood panel LAST YEAR showed normal levels. This year recently, it showed his kidneys not working as efficiently

. Robin has had a decent diet during his life, and he's a Red Bellied parrot almost 20 years old.
He was recommended to be put on Roudybush Careline AK which is an rx food available from the vet. His weight is good on it and is poops look good most of the time, but still does have excess water many times. Not saying your bird has that, as it's more common when the bird is older like Robin.

Maybe get another current blood panel? If all else seems well, I wouldn't worry TOO much. Your bird isn't very old though. I'd discuss it more with the vet, if they don't have answers, then get a second opinion as to what it could be. Good luck.

Oh, and Sennies (Poicephalus) breeding season is in winter not spring

SennieSlave · May 15, 2014

Thank you. I may go back and get some more blood work done then, just to be on the safe side. It may have been just not noticeable last time and will show up more at my next visit. Still not sure to wait for the vet I trust, or see someone I've never seen before.

Last year was the only Winter that my Sennie showed any mating behaviour - it's always been in Spring. In fact, it's always been a bit of a joke in the family that, as soon as Spring is here - he will change completely. I don't know if it's the same in all countries (I'm in UK) - or whether he's just mixed up, poor thing.

RavensGryf · May 15, 2014

Hm, not sure if it's the same in different parts of the world. Good point

Good luck with your Sennie! I think a current blood panel would be a start.

SennieSlave · May 27, 2014

Just an update. Got my Sennie along to the vets today (first day after he came back from his hols - the vet, not my bird).

He agreed that his droppings were very polyuric and did some tests with the samples I had taken along, but said they were all fine. He also took a skin sample (with a piece of tape), where Ri had been scratching and picking at his inside leg - and he said that was fine too - no parasites etc.

He said he's a good weight (155 g) and in great condition. He didn't know why he was so hyperactive lately, or why he's started picking at himself. He's given me 10 days of "Marbocyl" (Marbofloxacin) to give him orally (0.07ml, once a day) - which should be a challenge. He bit the end off the plastic syringe, while the vet was giving him some, so I am not looking forward to that. He said this was just in case there was an underlying infection.

But, he thinks it's his kidneys. These antibiotics are just to see if they help and to rule out any infection being the cause, before further tests. Otherwise, he's back in about a week/ten days to have blood works and an xray. His bloods were fine at the end of last year - but the vet said they could have been borderline and may show up abnormal this time.

So, I'm hoping the antibiotics will help but, as the vet said, I think it's his kidneys too. I'll have to look into it more. I'm so careful with his diet and he seems so young to have kidney disease. I would have thought, if he did have, that he wouldn't be so active and hyper. His appetite is normal and his behaviour is not that of an ill bird (though of course I know they hide it - but he has so much energy). So, if it does turn out to be his kidneys, I'm hoping he has many quality years left. I'm just really gutted, to be honest and don't know what this means for him.

On the plus side - he was the quietest he's been for months, whilst at the vets. He was an angel and stepped on the scales and let the vet look under his wings etc. He didn't make a sound, bless him. He made me out to be such a liar, when I was telling the vet how hyper he's been lately. He was so calm, and batting his eyelashes and being all cute. The minute we got back home - he turned feral again and started yelling and demanding my attention.

I guess I'll just have to wait and see if these antibiotics do anything. I have my fingers crossed but I think I'm kidding myself.

SennieSlave · Jun 5, 2014

Hope it's ok to keep updating. It's also to help me remember everything, as well as looking for people's opinions.

Took Ri to the vet again last Monday and he had an anaesthetic for blood tests (more about that on my "hematoma" thread) and an x ray.

His x ray showed nothing abnormal (except a slightly large liver which the vet said wasn't a problem) and I've been waiting for the blood tests to come back, which they did today. They showed nothing abnormal either, apart from slightly higher cholesterol than liked. The vet suggested High Potency Harrison's for the cholesterol - which I said I thought was doing the opposite of what was wanted - because of the high fat in it. I don't think I'll be putting him back on it. The vet hadn't tested thyroid levels, which I'd asked for, so have to wait again for that. Glucose and uric acid levels were normal. I asked about the kidney function but he said that blood tests won't really show that. So I have to take him back next Monday for a urinalysis (don't know why that couldn't have been done already) and then he said he may have to do a kidney biopsy, just to see if it really is his kidneys.

So, already £400 (about $670) and still none the wiser - though Ri does have a hematoma now, from the blood test

.

I'm thinking if a biopsy is suggested I may not take it. I'm losing a little confidence in this vet, even though he's meant to be one of the good avian ones. He didn't know about giving probiotics, after a course of antibiotics. He also suggested Harrison's High Potency for any kidney problems. When I said that had far too much protein in for kidney problems, he said well that's what the manufacturer recommends. Of course they do, as they are selling a product - but I can find more people saying give a less protein rich pellet, and some have even left reviews saying that High Potency made their bird's kidney disease worse. Anyway, I'm giving Harrison's Lifetime at the moment but trying to transition to Totally Organic Pellets (TOPS). My vet hadn't heard of Roudybush, which is one of the main ones recommended for kidney problems but then, you can't really get that here in the UK anyway. He hadn't heard of an aloe detox, either - so I still don't know whether to give that or not.

Anyway - I really don't want to go for the biopsy. Ri isn't ill and is very active (too hyper most days) and eating like a pig, dancing and running round the house. I'm wondering if the risk of a biopsy isn't worth it. But then, of course, if he does get ill, I'll always blame myself that I should have done more.

Sorry for rambling. It just helps getting it all down, as I'm constantly worrying about him and don't know what the polyuria is being caused by.

MonicaMc · Jun 5, 2014

Actually, the vet's suggestion in Harrison's is a good one. Plant based cholesterol is not the same as animal based cholesterol. A bird is more likely going to get high cholesterol from eating eggs than from eating Harrison's pellets.

Here's a quote from someone who goes by sodakat on the forums. She was having difficulty with high cholesterol in one of her ekkies, and this goes over her experience.

FYI, I too thought a little fatty human food could not hurt but guess what, it can. Here's my story. Kinda long so if your eyes glaze over, sorry. For the first three years of our Eclectus (SI) couple's lives we fed fresh foods, some seeds and a bit of our meals. LaFitte was a bit underweight and Rosie a bit overweight (kind of like my husband and me now that I think of it) at the end of those 3 years. I met a vet who I liked and we discussed their overall health then did bloodwork on LaFitte. There were a few concerns such as high uric acid levels but mostly he was in the normal range, yet not in optimum health. The vet suggested, urged, pleaded that we begin feeding pellets and thus began a year on Harrison's High Potency.

During this year my husband continued to slip them a bit of his breakfast fare that often consisted of eggs and either bacon or sausage. Now, I'm talking a really small amount but fairly frequently. This same year I began religiously feeding more leafy greens and deep orange veggies and continued with the other good habits we had begun when we bought the birds. So, last year we had the annual bloodwork done on LaFitte, thinking we would see outstanding results as they had been eating pellets along with what I considered a really good diet. Wow was I shocked when results showed that his blood cholesterol had risen from 230 to 532!!! The vet I saw then (we had moved) discussed diet with me and focused on the fact that I was feeding Harrison's High Potency pellets. She said that those were known to cause elevated blood cholesterol. I did not question how she knew this, but immediately switched to Harrisons Lifetime Pellets. I also mentioned the results on a couple Eclectus specific email lists I'm subscribed to and one long time breeder asked if my birds consumed eggs. Of course they did. So, my husband stopped sharing his breakfast if it was high in fat or included eggs.

For 4 months I fed Harrisons Lifetime then, after doing some research on my own about Harrisons and plant based cholesterol, I switched back to High Potency. This last year I also concentrated on providing sprouts on a daily basis along with the same fresh food and typical "mash" diet. Recently I had the annual bloodwork done on LaFitte and was pleased to see that his blood cholesterol is back to 232. This proved to me that high fat foods even in very small amounts, if fed routinely, can result in poor health in Eclectus. BTW, the vet I finally found in my area (well in my state at least... he's 130 miles away) told me that other than the high cholesterol, last year's results were much better than the previous year when I thought only the uric acid was out of wack. I had taken copies of the previous two year's lab results with me to this new vet so he would have a history of sorts. He also thought that the birds seem very healthy now, which bloodwork confirmed.

Avian vets don't become avian vets to be Nutritionists, they become avian vets to work on medical issues. It should be of no surprise if they don't know everything simply because they weren't trained to know everything! I know you put a lot of trust and respect into them, but they are only human! They can only know what they have been taught!

My a-vet didn't know about Roudybush's Careline diets and I had to ask my previous vet to give me a prescription to one of them. It was the AK Renal Diet that I got, and I do think it helped. However, this was in a bird with high uric acid levels, but they were not high enough to indicate kidney failure.

Please don't disregard his advice simply because he doesn't know everything about nutrition an supplements! He can only do the best that he can to his abilities! And if he's a good vet, he'll be researching further info!

If you don't want to do the biopsy, then look into alternatives for now!

Harrison's does recommend adding grey millet to the diet for a bird showing excess urine.

Topic: KIDNEY/RENAL BIRDS ? Which Formula? | Harrison's Bird Foods

SennieSlave · Jun 6, 2014

Thank you. I thought Harrison's High Potency would be worse because sunflower seeds and peanuts are the biggest ingredients, according to the list. I do think it's not a good one for kidney disease though, due to the high protein percentage (just through research and going by people's experiences).

I also think nutrition is linked in to many medical issues and vets should be knowledgeable about it. I'm now going to be looking into why Ri has the slightly high cholesterol, as he's not given anything fatty, or much of what we're eating at all. He'd been on High Potency for quite a while because of a long and heavy moult - and he also gets fresh fruit/veggies/pulses/grains/birdie bread/chop etc. I'm more worried about the polyuria though and what the cause could be, when everything is looking normal.

To be honest, the nutrition was just one of the reasons I'm questioning. And yes, I agree that they can only know so much.

I've been looking for grey millet (thank you for the info, by the way) and can't find it anywhere here in the UK. Will have to keep looking.

MonicaMc · Jun 6, 2014

I do agree about the high protein and kidneys, but I've never put a bird with known kidney problems onto the HP diet to see if it has helped. In fact, a dry diet isn't recommended very much for a bird with kidney failure unless it's a diet specifically for kidney care!

If I did put a bird with organ failure onto the HP diet, then I would want to do frequent blood work to make sure that the bird is getting better, not worse.

I hope you are able to figure out the polyuria issue!

SennieSlave · Jun 6, 2014

Thank you - it's appreciated.

Polyuria Puzzle

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The test came back positive

The third test came back negative?!

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