Not on my watch, you won't! A horribly lengthy post.

I know this post I wrote in the "Behavioral" forum was read many times but replied to sparingly. To those who did reply, "Thank you". To those who didn't, "I understand". Having such an extreme case of self-mutilation isn't something most people are familiar with and if even the vet offers no more than a very remote chance, I can't nor won't expect anyone here to offer a solution. A little bit of encouragement would be nice though.

However, since I don't know what is going to happen to my Sweet Pea I want to repost what happened yesterday in order to let you know what I'm dealing with.


====================
Here's yesterday's 1/27/15 post:

Today was bad I came home from work and found a big puddle of almost dried blood on the cage floor and the food dishes. I took him out and his leg looked ok. Not 30 seconds later he bit himself in front of me again, I did the usual applying pressure but it didn't stop bleeding until about 20 minutes later.

I went to get his collar and slipped it on him and put him down to wash my hands. Wouldn't you know he bit himself again, collar and all. He couldn't reach his leg with his beak, but he was able to lift his leg TO his beak. He did it so fast I couldn't react to match his speed. This time the blood just spurted...I just put pressure on, I had no time to get any corn starch. When 20 minutes of pressure had no effect, I somehow dialed the vet with my nose it seems... he wanted me to come in but there was nobody home but me and I couldn't let go of his leg. I walked the walk (like when you have a baby you're trying to put to sleep) with one hand holding him against my chest, and the other holding his leg between thumb and forefinger, applying pressure. Meanwhile the dogs were going crazy, the phone rang at the same time the doorbell, I was ready to just take that thumb away and let things happen but.......I couldn't let him die on my watch.

My son's girfriend finally came home at 6:20pm and since more than an hour had passed, I thought I could drive while she held Sweet Pea. However no, the blood started spurting again as soon as I took my thumb off. So she called the vet and they were waiting for us. Pea got a pressure bandage, a huge collar, an iron shot, and a shot of fluids. The verdict: we'll talk about what to do on friday during his regular appointment. The doc didn't give me much hope. He said there are a large number of tests we can do but 50% of the birds with QMS don't ever get better. They either have to live their entire life with a collar on, or put to sleep.

The viciousness with which Pea attacked himself today was horrible It was a very stressful afternoon
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Back to today, 1/28:

The avian vet has not given me much hope. He has given me 2 days to "think about it". The message to permanently relieve Sweet Pea's internal pain (whatever it may be) was very clear. To resume what I was told: Spend thousands of dollars for the chance that one of the tests we do will reveal the REASON for the self-mutilation and allow us to stop it. We're not talking about plucking. We are talking about slashing your artery 4 times in one day and only surviving because I refused to take pressure off S'Pea's leg until SOMEONE came home to drive me and him to the vet.

I just deleted a part of this post related to my own health because it has no bearing on this case. This is about S'Pea, nobod else.

I can smile about myself right now but....I'm as stubborn as a Quaker Parrot, maybe that's why I love them so much. I kept walking him swearing like a sailor. No, worse. Not, not, not under my watch you won't do this under my watch.

My father bled out from terminal bladder cancer while I took care of him at home. This was NOT going to happen again. Absolutely not. This isn't terminal, I won't let it be.

Today Sweet Pea of course is very resentful because he hates the collar, refuses to eat and drink, and is at his *****iest mood since I've met him. I guess it sucks when someone prevents you from committing suicide. I ground up Roudybush pellets and mixed them with warm coconut milk, fed him 10 syringes of this mixture just for dinner alone (he couldn't get enough of it). I'll wake him again at 5:00 am (I have to work at 6:00) and feed him again. My significant other will feed him again at 9:30am and my son around noon. Then I'll take up his care when I get home at 3:00pm.

The first mile stone I am expecting is a healed leg. I am hoping that his reason for slashing is that the scab/crust hardens and itches or gets tight. I want to get past this stage. We did it with the right leg. The left should heal also if he doesn't continuously slash it again. I'll think of the second mile stone when the first has been reached.

I'm just not ready to throw in the towel. My reason for adopting this wretch was BECAUSE he was a self-mutilator and I wanted to try to save him. I might not have the thousands of dollars required for all the tests that will lead to the eventual "conclusion" that he can't be helped. If we get there it will be one test at a time, because that final resolution will only be made over my dead body.

I've not told this to many people I know because they already think I'm crazy. Those I've told........now at least know that they were right.

I am so sorry that you and Sweet Pea are going through this.
My friend's U2 wears her collar all the time except for when she is being held for several minutes at a time. It is her abdomen that she goes after, so the collar works. I am not sure how to keep Sweet Pea away from his leg. With the U2, it is psychological, which I think it is most of the time. I just read the other day where someone had recommended to try to keep the scabs soft so they won't pull tight.

My friend has tried everything for her U2, even uses healing crystals hanging by her cage as they are supposed to calm. The bird still mutilates, sometimes will go several months, the collar will be off for an hour, and she starts again.

You are doing everything possible, and I hope that a physical reason will be found in your case. I did speak to my friend about what you are going through, and as soon as she has a day off she is going to write up some things she has tried so I can send it to you. You both are in my thoughts.

I don't think you are crazy at all, I think you are a wonderful parront who is trying to save your beautiful boy.

I am so sorry to hear this, and glad that you wouldn’t give up on Sweet Pea. I have never come across this, but wanted you to know that you are in my thoughts.

You are crazy; and that's what makes you the right person for this job. Only crazy people love that hard, fight that hard, and only crazy people keep parrots. Only crazy people are my friends. We all support you here, and I believe you will make the right choice and you will know what that is, not the vet, not people who shake their heads, you. You will know.

SilverSage said:

You are crazy; and that's what makes you the right person for this job. Only crazy people love that hard, fight that hard, and only crazy people keep parrots. Only crazy people are my friends. We all support you here, and I believe you will make the right choice and you will know what that is, not the vet, not people who shake their heads, you. You will know.

Click to expand...

From your fingers straight to my bleeding heart. Thank you.

Terry57 said:

I am so sorry that you and Sweet Pea are going through this.
My friend's U2 wears her collar all the time except for when she is being held for several minutes at a time. It is her abdomen that she goes after, so the collar works. I am not sure how to keep Sweet Pea away from his leg. With the U2, it is psychological, which I think it is most of the time. I just read the other day where someone had recommended to try to keep the scabs soft so they won't pull tight.

My friend has tried everything for her U2, even uses healing crystals hanging by her cage as they are supposed to calm. The bird still mutilates, sometimes will go several months, the collar will be off for an hour, and she starts again.

You are doing everything possible, and I hope that a physical reason will be found in your case. I did speak to my friend about what you are going through, and as soon as she has a day off she is going to write up some things she has tried so I can send it to you. You both are in my thoughts.

I don't think you are crazy at all, I think you are a wonderful parront who is trying to save your beautiful boy.

Click to expand...

I can't wait to try everything your friend is willing to share with me. Somehow I know that Pea's reason for slashing is psychological and/or mental. He displays a lot of strange behavior and slashing is the worst of it. (I have Clover to compare him to). Although Clover is a bipolar female Quaker Turd her behavior is not OCD at all. She's just a female. Quaker. That explains it all

Sweat Pea displays behavior similar to a baby in an orphanage in Romania (I've seen videos of them). The lack of stimulation, physical touch, learning, and exposure to new experiences causes this type of mental compensation/aberration, and even toddlers can hurt themselves, if only to feel SOMETHING.

Slamming himself against the cage bars over and over, scratching imaginary itches, girating with senseless distortions of his head and neck, caught in his whatever zone where he doesn't hear me or acknowledge me, Sweat Pea is simply UNREACHABLE. He has awesome moments of normalcy though, and when he does he is a great talker, loves me, loves crowds, and entertains everyone around him. Then the madness takes over again. If he would limit himself to the above behavior, I would just let him be himself and try to get him "out of it" when he sinks into his ocean of madness. But the slashing is the OCD I can't deal with, I just can't stand by and watch him bleed to death.

My vet said that his behavior could be related to almost total absence of touch and stimulation, and a very bad previous home. He could also simply be mentally ill. Apparently QMS (Quaker Mutilation syndrome) also happens in birds that live in a "happy home" where all their needs are taken care of. Quaker Parrots in the wild NEVER suffer from any of these symptoms.

My heart just goes out to these poor creatures because their need is so great. I will hurt if I fail, but I can't stop trying.

THANK YOU Terry for responding to me.

It indeed takes a special person to desire working through seemingly intractable behaviors.

Has your vet considered psychotropic medications? I had an untamed female B&G Macaw who required post-surgical hands-on care. Haldol (Haloperidol) was prescribed which markedly improved her temperament to the point I could hug and kiss her on the beak! She did not completely revert to type once the course was finished. Haldol is now a rather dated med; others are available and some may be effective with birds. Not sure how long this class of drug can be administered and whether they have a halo-effect with behavior modification.

Giggleagain said:

Terry57 said:

I am so sorry that you and Sweet Pea are going through this.
My friend's U2 wears her collar all the time except for when she is being held for several minutes at a time. It is her abdomen that she goes after, so the collar works. I am not sure how to keep Sweet Pea away from his leg. With the U2, it is psychological, which I think it is most of the time. I just read the other day where someone had recommended to try to keep the scabs soft so they won't pull tight.

My friend has tried everything for her U2, even uses healing crystals hanging by her cage as they are supposed to calm. The bird still mutilates, sometimes will go several months, the collar will be off for an hour, and she starts again.

You are doing everything possible, and I hope that a physical reason will be found in your case. I did speak to my friend about what you are going through, and as soon as she has a day off she is going to write up some things she has tried so I can send it to you. You both are in my thoughts.

I don't think you are crazy at all, I think you are a wonderful parront who is trying to save your beautiful boy.

Click to expand...

I can't wait to try everything your friend is willing to share with me. Somehow I know that Pea's reason for slashing is psychological and/or mental. He displays a lot of strange behavior and slashing is the worst of it. (I have Clover to compare him to). Although Clover is a bipolar female Quaker Turd her behavior is not OCD at all. She's just a female. Quaker. That explains it all

Sweat Pea displays behavior similar to a baby in an orphanage in Romania (I've seen videos of them). The lack of stimulation, physical touch, learning, and exposure to new experiences causes this type of mental compensation/aberration, and even toddlers can hurt themselves, if only to feel SOMETHING.

Slamming himself against the cage bars over and over, scratching imaginary itches, girating with senseless distortions of his head and neck, caught in his whatever zone where he doesn't hear me or acknowledge me, Sweat Pea is simply UNREACHABLE. He has awesome moments of normalcy though, and when he does he is a great talker, loves me, loves crowds, and entertains everyone around him. Then the madness takes over again. If he would limit himself to the above behavior, I would just let him be himself and try to get him "out of it" when he sinks into his ocean of madness. But the slashing is the OCD I can't deal with, I just can't stand by and watch him bleed to death.

My vet said that his behavior could be related to almost total absence of touch and stimulation, and a very bad previous home. He could also simply be mentally ill. Apparently QMS (Quaker Mutilation syndrome) also happens in birds that live in a "happy home" where all their needs are taken care of. Quaker Parrots in the wild NEVER suffer from any of these symptoms.

My heart just goes out to these poor creatures because their need is so great. I will hurt if I fail, but I can't stop trying.

THANK YOU Terry for responding to me.

Click to expand...

Hi Giggle,

Mentioned this to my wife which is a vet assistant Dose surgery on animals, she said it sounds like mites, they are very very small and can drive a bird bonkers. How often is he bathed? Dry skin is another factor in winter months, humidity is needed. Third, you mentioned you have dogs, birds can get fleas too. Knats ( tiny flies) invade bird cages if food is left out too long or cage not regularly cleaned. These tiny tiny flies can drive a bird banana's. At first chance, give bird a good soaking, add a few ( 2 or 3 drops of flax seed oil to food and or water to help with the natural protective oil glands for the bird. Will sooth the itching and biting, trust me it works wonders.

I'm not an expert by any means. But, have you tried classical music? Sounds funny, but I wonder if the soothing music would create a comfort of sorts, that he may need?
Just an idea.
I've never experienced anything remotely similar, i truly hope that you can get this under control.

Mango121913 said:

I'm not an expert by any means. But, have you tried classical music? Sounds funny, but I wonder if the soothing music would create a comfort of sorts, that he may need?
Just an idea.
I've never experienced anything remotely similar, i truly hope that you can get this under control.

Click to expand...

Music is very soothing.....My Zons will get cranky if they don't get a bit of music during the day....They love singing as well to the music.

I am so sorry Sweet Pea is doing this to himself Once the wounds have completely scabbed over, is there a way to wrap his legs in something soft like fleece to work as a bite buffer? And in such an extreme case, I would definitely look into medicating Sweet Pea to help calm him to give him time to heal and take the edge off the physical pain and discomfort he must be feeling right now (and hopefully some of the mental too). Have you tried letting Sweet Pea watch some children's shows? Cockatoos seem to like bright colors and maybe it would cheer him up a bit

I was at the pet shop the other day just browsing around and I came across a tube of gel that was extremely bitter and it was used to stop puppies and young dogs from bitting hands and chewing on furniture.

I know that a parrots taste receptors are different to ours but surely there is something that parrots find dis-tasteful. If applied to the affected area this could stop sweet pea from biting herself. But only if it is safe for birds. This could be used in-conjunction with medication and watching TV.

Scott said:

It indeed takes a special person to desire working through seemingly intractable behaviors.

Has your vet considered psychotropic medications? I had an untamed female B&G Macaw who required post-surgical hands-on care. Haldol (Haloperidol) was prescribed which markedly improved her temperament to the point I could hug and kiss her on the beak! She did not completely revert to type once the course was finished. Haldol is now a rather dated med; others are available and some may be effective with birds. Not sure how long this class of drug can be administered and whether they have a halo-effect with behavior modification.

Click to expand...

I will bring this up at the vet on Friday. Maybe he would be willing to prescribe it temporarily, until the leg is completely healed... the thing about Sweet Pea is that he is not aggressive towards anyone at all, only himself. The day I adopted him he already let me hug and kiss his beak.

Hawk said:

Hi Giggle,

Mentioned this to my wife which is a vet assistant Dose surgery on animals, she said it sounds like mites, they are very very small and can drive a bird bonkers. How often is he bathed? Dry skin is another factor in winter months, humidity is needed. Third, you mentioned you have dogs, birds can get fleas too. Knats ( tiny flies) invade bird cages if food is left out too long or cage not regularly cleaned. These tiny tiny flies can drive a bird banana's. At first chance, give bird a good soaking, add a few ( 2 or 3 drops of flax seed oil to food and or water to help with the natural protective oil glands for the bird. Will sooth the itching and biting, trust me it works wonders.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your concern Hawk! Mites was something I thought about too, but wouldn't the vet already have determined that during his first exam? He put on his UV light glasses and examined his feathers and skin closely. I know vets use this to detect fleas, but don't know if they would see mites also.

Pea gets a soaking once a day and lives in a room with a humidifier, a heater, and gets coconut oil rubs. I will try the flax seed oil though, maybe this will work better at keeping his skin supple.

Thank you for your ideas Mango, Kiwibird, and Delfin. I will try bitter gel once his leg is healed. He already has music and the TV on Nickelodeon. I've tried fleece but even now with the bandage on he attacks his leg when the collar isn't on. The vet prohibited me from taking the collar off until friday, he doesn't even want me to take him out of his cage. He can't be on the play stand either because the vet is afraid he'll fall due to his weakness and the collar.

Thank you all for hanging in there with me and for your ideas. The perplexing thing is that Sweet Pea has gone 3 - 4 days between slashing himself. Wouldn't mites and fleas bother him every day? The vet thinks that some type of skin infection might have started the biting, and then the biting caused further infection. This problem was the reason Sweet Pea was dumped at the store in the first place. He has had this condition for many, many months before I adopted him. How he made it this far and survived, I don't know. I don't know whether he's been at a vet before, or what the extent of his self-mutilation was.

I have had him for 5 weeks now and his biting has escalated to the point of being life threatening. I know that during the 2 months in the bird store he bit himself continuously because I visited him many times, hoping always that someone would adopt him - and that "someone" ended up being me. I'll keep you updated. We're in for the long haul. Time to go feed him!

I would suggest a metal toxicity test. Mutilating/biting at the legs is common with heavy metal poisoning.

Giggleagain said:

Hawk said:

Hi Giggle,

Mentioned this to my wife which is a vet assistant Dose surgery on animals, she said it sounds like mites, they are very very small and can drive a bird bonkers. How often is he bathed? Dry skin is another factor in winter months, humidity is needed. Third, you mentioned you have dogs, birds can get fleas too. Knats ( tiny flies) invade bird cages if food is left out too long or cage not regularly cleaned. These tiny tiny flies can drive a bird banana's. At first chance, give bird a good soaking, add a few ( 2 or 3 drops of flax seed oil to food and or water to help with the natural protective oil glands for the bird. Will sooth the itching and biting, trust me it works wonders.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your concern Hawk! Mites was something I thought about too, but wouldn't the vet already have determined that during his first exam? He put on his UV light glasses and examined his feathers and skin closely. I know vets use this to detect fleas, but don't know if they would see mites also.

Pea gets a soaking once a day and lives in a room with a humidifier, a heater, and gets coconut oil rubs. I will try the flax seed oil though, maybe this will work better at keeping his skin supple.

Click to expand...

That's true, they usually do use them, then at last couple visits for my birds the vet never used them or checked, though it may not have been a concern. I don't think all vets are up to date on Parrots. Even the one we go to is supposed to be an avian vet, but always puts on what looks like a space suit mask because the vet is allergic to birds, how ironic is that?
I'd like another vet that specializes in Avian birds but that means going 2-3 hours away to Detroit. My wife is an assistant Vet, trained on surgery for most domestic animals, and Livestock Including chickens. Parrots they don't do or handle.

Your doing all the right things so I can't readily tell you what it might be without a close study of the bird for a day. Maybe something in diet is causing a reaction that making them irritable. I had to take my Senegal completely off Pellets as he was experiencing similar reactions like your bird...attacking air and itchy....Vet said it's a sign of a food allergy. Makes them a bit hyper. Did the process of elimination and the itching and hyperness stopped once I eliminated the pellets. I'm not a fan of pellets, it's way to "processed" for my liking....too many chemical additives and coloring in it, which birds can not process in their digestive systems.

Something to think about....Good lucK !

Hawk said:

I'm not a fan of pellets, it's way to "processed" for my liking....too many chemical additives and coloring in it, which birds can not process in their digestive systems.

Something to think about....Good lucK !

Click to expand...

So what do you feed your parrots. Please give a days example. Thanks!

Dopey said:

Hawk said:

I'm not a fan of pellets, it's way to "processed" for my liking....too many chemical additives and coloring in it, which birds can not process in their digestive systems.

Something to think about....Good lucK !

Click to expand...

So what do you feed your parrots. Please give a days example. Thanks!

Click to expand...

I'm also not a fan of pellets due to the amount of processing, artificial/unnatural ingredients and the fact they are so broad spectrum for "all parrots". I think pellets are better than an all seed diet, but I disagree with the notion they are the best diet. There aren't any pellet trees in the jungle! For example, Kiwi was on a diet of cooked grains/legumes mix 2X a day with fruit in the morning, veg in the evenings and some seed/nuts during the day. About 80% of what he eats is moist food (produce or grains/legumes). Parrots naturally derive a lot of moisture from their food, which pellets don't provide unless you soak them. What he eats changes seasonally too, depending on what's readily available. I am currently switching him away from the grains and legumes and more into a fruit/veg based diet with some sprouted grains/legumes and of course nuts and seeds. I swear, he's getting even healthier! Diet also plays a role in the mental well being of parrots. They flourish on living, fresh foods. The more fruit you give em' the sweeter they get But in all seriousness, those pellets are "dead" food. Imagine eating primarily vitamin fortified fruit loops (dry) with the occasional apple or almond. You probably wouldn't feel as "vibrant" as you could...




Which looks closer to a parrots natural diet to you? The onions and mushrooms are mine, but he will get to eat abundantly from all the other things on the table I brought home after my weekly grocery shop.

Dopey said:

Hawk said:

I'm not a fan of pellets, it's way to "processed" for my liking....too many chemical additives and coloring in it, which birds can not process in their digestive systems.

Something to think about....Good lucK !

Click to expand...

So what do you feed your parrots. Please give a days example. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Breakfast..Yesterday..steel cut oatmeal (cooked), dehydrated veggies and fruit, Fresh cut up apples, pears, and toast with nothing on it.

During afternoon each one has a stainless steel skewer that can hang from perch, I put 2 inch chunks of red pepper, yellow peppers, jalapeno, Dehydrated plum, and dates, and a few unsalted pumpkin seeds.

Dinner they had a bit of my dinner, baked cod no breading or seasoning, potato boiled, edamame (no Salt), and sweet potatoe peeled and steamed.

They have mixed seeds in seed bowl fresh every day, once a week I'll Juice veggies or fruit, and they'll drink that from a glass. it's loaded with vitamins. Once a week They get a few drops of Flax seed oil in their water to help with oil gland production for their feathers.

They are very healthy and feathers are brilliantly nice.
They are very happy birds...