What do you do with no diagnosis?

Piasa

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Jan 12, 2016
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Beau 20 year old male Green Cheek || Jimmy Bullet 17 year old female white cap pionus parrot
My heart keeps breaking over and over. Jimmy has been mutilating for 3 months now, and Beau who has been sick since October, has a small wound started in the same spot as Jimmy's now! (under wing, above right leg if anyone knows what that might correlate to)

They test negative in all the tests we've run (bacterial, yeast, nonculturing bacteria - in process of long term parasite testing). Nothing amiss in X-rays. Jimmy hasn't been well enough for bloodwork, but Beau's CBC came back normal, and kidney and liver function tests came back normal.

I don't know what to do. I'd go anywhere to find out what is hurting them, but I don't know where to go.

Any ideas on how to help them, how to emotionally cope, anything is greatly appreciated.
 

Christinenc2000

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Oct 8, 2014
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I am so sorry. Outside of a hug and a Prayer I am of no help to you . I hope someone comes along soon with some advise for you.
 
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Piasa

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Jan 12, 2016
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Beau 20 year old male Green Cheek || Jimmy Bullet 17 year old female white cap pionus parrot
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It just feels good to have someone listen. Thanks Christine.
 

RavensGryf

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Jan 19, 2014
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I am so sorry :(. I know how awful that feels.

My suggestion would be to get a second opinion. If your vet has exhausted everything they can think of to do, he might be able to recommend another trusted avian vet who might have more experience in this area?
 
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Piasa

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Jan 12, 2016
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Beau 20 year old male Green Cheek || Jimmy Bullet 17 year old female white cap pionus parrot
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Jimmy has an appointment tomorrow, will ask about a second pair of eyes.

I keep hoping that we can find the problem before it is too late to do anything about it :(
 

SailBoat

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Jul 10, 2015
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Have you changed anything in your home back in August, September or October? Anything new? Anything now gone? Painted? New carpeting? New house members? Etc, etc, etc...

A second set of eyes is a great idea.
 

Pinkbirdy

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Feb 26, 2013
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macaw,LS2,congo grey,2Blk Hd caiques,Hawkhead,yellowstrk lory,Blue frnt amazon,sun conure ,Yellow sided greencheek ,Goffin ,Rosebreasted Cockatoo,Greenwing Macaw,Blue and Gold Macaw,Nanday conure,Ecle
Plucking as you know can become a habit .When their are sores thats different [ I hope that will stop]. One thing to try is get the room that their in full of parrot safe lighting [it might help].
 

Scott

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RIP Gandalf and Big Bird, you are missed.
I'm sorry your babies are mutilating. A second opinion is definitely appropriate, either from the same facility (if they have more than one avian vet) or a different clinic. Some birds will mutilate without any underlying physical or chemical malady; it can be a neurotic habit stimulated by something in the environment or beyond our understanding.

Please let us know what you learn after the appointment.
 

riddick07

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Dec 22, 2011
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Where are you located? Taking them to another vet for a second opinion is a good idea. You can also get all their records and send them to another vet for opinions. And can see if your vet will consult with them on the phone too. Doesn't necessarily have to be a local vet. Our shelter vet has taken records of some of the cases that have come in that nothing seems to be working on to get other opinions. If you have a decent vet they shouldn't see a problem with doing this...

Definitely think of any changes in the environment. New perfumes,lotions anything you might have changed in yourself or cleaning agents or chemicals in general in the house that could be irritating them. Are they near a window and could be stressing over predators and such?

I collar my mutilator. Sock buddies were worse than just useless. He would just tug them apart and strings would stick out everywhere plus he could still reach everything to mutilate.

What kind if schedule are they on? Type of Toys? I'm guessing the vet has covered diet already for issues.

Do you have nervous birds? My cockatoo is insanely nervous about life but I have a section in his cage that he can back into making him feel secure. He can watch everything from this point to make sure nothing sneaks up on him...he thinks the dust is a monster out to get him:rolleyes: Are your birds flighted? My cockatoo and my one gcc were much more confident with their wings and it reduced the amount of nervous energy that resulted in plucking.

Edit: What size cages are they in? I have found that with my guy more secure/smaller cages helped with the mutliating issue.
 
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Piasa

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Jan 12, 2016
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Beau 20 year old male Green Cheek || Jimmy Bullet 17 year old female white cap pionus parrot
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Leaving for vet in a few minutes but wanted to check in to say thank you to everyone. I have a list of questions to ask and will be back here when I get home for a longer post.

I am in western NC right now, Asheville area, but also spend a lot of time in central PA (State college). I live in an RV, work predominantly from home and can and will go anywhere for my birds.

The only major home changes since last summer were with the water. We are on well water, there has been flooding and they don't test the well so potentially contaminated with who knows what. I put them on bottled water I think in December, maybe sooner, but dishes are still washed in the tap water and they also bathe in it. I am saving for a really good filtration system, but not there yet.

I also got an air filter for them (Austin Air) and has my roof resealed to make sure I got rid of any leaks that could be causing mold (no mold has been found but I haven't had an inspector in yet). These things were done after both birds were having problems.

The camp we are at is near a tomato farm that hand sprays pesticide and about 8 miles from a furniture plant.

Diet wasn't the best, we've made lots of changes. More on that later.

They do have other symptoms, so I am pretty sure it's not just behavioral. They have been traveling with me in this rv for 8 years and are used to change and new places/people.
 
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Piasa

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Jan 12, 2016
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Beau 20 year old male Green Cheek || Jimmy Bullet 17 year old female white cap pionus parrot
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VET VISIT UPDATE

Getting records for both of them put together. I'm going to a companion parrot conference at the end of the month, so I'll be ready to ask questions there. The doctor knows I am willing to do whatever is necessary, and she is on board with a second opinion.

The vet was able to get a blood sample from Jimmy's leg without problems! Enough for CBC and maybe also liver bile. I also dropped off 2nd giardia test samples. Blood test should be back around Monday.

We go in again Tuesday (she has laser therapy rehab for her scabs) and will talk more about the test results and what to do next. I'm just watching Beau until then to see if his wound heals or if he picks at it - it's more of a blood blister right now than a scab. It's no worse than yesterday.

MORE LIFESTYLE DETAILS (maybe TMI, but it's here)

Both show signs of malnutrition, but nothing in the tests has shown a deficiency yet. Jimmy's feather color is duller than it should be, and she has many black/grey feathers on the back of her head (they should be blue and green). Her beak is chippy. Beau has a discolored yellow feather on his leg and a couple small black spots on his wing elbow feathers.

With diet, they've spent most of their life on whatever at the time I was convinced was the most nutritious (before I learned what nutrients are in what, and what birds need) - Abba soaked seed, sprouted seed, ZuPreem natural, Roudybush - but minimal fresh foods. About a year ago I got Beau eating Harrison's Lifetime and got Jimmy on that maybe 6-8 months ago. For the last 2ish years I've been trying to add fresh veg or bean sprouts regularly - they eat some, not others.

Jimmy eats fruit/veg puree and Harrisons, milkthistle seeds, bok choy and occasionally will eat bell pepper, pepita and apple. She gets other stuff but I don't think she eats it.

More recently I got Beau off pellets completely and onto an evolving allergy conscious diet with help from the vet, the community here, and the local parrot sanctuary. He is on a quinoa based mash, bean sprouts, juices, a few superfood veggies and chia/milkthistle seeds. This has helped a lot, he's still having skin issues, but his GI symptoms have lessened and knock on wood, they are better as he's not had trouble there since Feb. He was getting dehydrated to the point of having trouble passing stool, would go off his food for a few days or have days where he ate nonstop and still cried for food, and had an instance of throwing up all night.

I clean with room temperature white vinegar.

Cages, they are stainless and each around 2x2ft wide/deep. Beau's cage overlaps a window about 50%. Both birds are fully flighted and fly daily indoors and are out most of the day. Jimmy gets outside on leash 1-2 hours daily. Beau I try to get outside for 30 minutes a day in small cage for sun, but I do skip days. Toys and perches I limit to natural only - flagstone, cholla, and perches with bark. Toy/perch hardware is stainless. Playstands are bottlebrush and java wood with bad metals (one I think is nickel coated eyelets and other is for sure galvanized steel - I removed most of them).

Toys are raffia pinatas, seagrasses, sisal rope, coconut husk, yucca, soft woods (usually pine) and veg tanned leather. Jimmy also has one of those rubbery plastic balls with holes in it (I think it's called Holey Roller), Beau eats toys so he doesn't have access to plastics.
 

JerseyWendy

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Jul 20, 2012
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KUDOS to you! You truly have gone above and beyond, Piasa! The diet sounds phenomenal, as do their setups and toy selection!

Fingers crossed that the blood results reveal something (harmless) and easily treatable!

You are most certainly a VERY well educated, VERY caring, and VERY determined parront!
 

SailBoat

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Jul 10, 2015
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I do not want to send you running down a very thin likelihood, but the RV could represent a possible hint as does October.

I am guessing that your RV is a Gasoline eater. October is when the mid and northern States change-over from the Summer Blend to a Winter Blend. Either Blend contain a vast mixture of chemicals that do not react well with rubber. The twice yearly change-overs are tough on rubber hoses, which are prone to cracking anyways. RV fuel filling systems commonly use lots of rubber connections. Gas Vapors 'could' be leaking (venting) from cracks in the rubber connectors. This is rarely a problem when the RV is moving since the average RV exchanges air at a mine bending rate, but when it is sitting, vapors can gather in and around the RV.

Unlike automobiles, these new gas mixtures have not really been tested regarding their interactions with materials more commonly found in RV construction and interiors. In addition, fuel vapor control systems are to be kind 'basic' as part of RV in comparison to automobiles.

STOP! This is a long stretch from more traditional sources! But next time you got a few minutes and a clear nose, let your nose sniff around your RV unit's exterior and interior.
 
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Piasa

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Jan 12, 2016
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Beau 20 year old male Green Cheek || Jimmy Bullet 17 year old female white cap pionus parrot
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SailBoat, that is a great line of thought. I have a pull-behind trailer, so no gasoline except for the truck - however, I do have a propane system and I have not leak checked those lines in a long time. There are other systems that could benefit from a look/smell over to make sure everything is okay regarding fumes.
 
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Piasa

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Jan 12, 2016
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Beau 20 year old male Green Cheek || Jimmy Bullet 17 year old female white cap pionus parrot
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Jimmy's CBC and liver bile results came back! Her biles are good, but CBC came back with high count of white blood cells.

She has an appointment with the vet tomorrow.

I hope this is what has been causing the trouble and is easy to fix.

I'm scared, but this is the first time anything has shown anything, so also hopeful. This has been going on so long and I am ready for it to be resolved.
 

Pinkbirdy

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Feb 26, 2013
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macaw,LS2,congo grey,2Blk Hd caiques,Hawkhead,yellowstrk lory,Blue frnt amazon,sun conure ,Yellow sided greencheek ,Goffin ,Rosebreasted Cockatoo,Greenwing Macaw,Blue and Gold Macaw,Nanday conure,Ecle
Are they testing for PDD ?
 

JerseyWendy

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Jul 20, 2012
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Oh gosh, Piasa! I want you to have definite answers at this point, I REALLY do! This 'not-really-knowing-what-is-going-on' is/WAS the killer here. Hey, looks like you are finally getting somewhere?????

Now we need to know it can be treated - successfully!!

THINKING OF YOU AND YOUR FLOCK!!!! HUGS!!
 

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