Sore Skin

Okay, so I was hoping you guys could give me some advice. My youngest, Alice, has trouble with the area around her vent. Poop often gets stuck to it, which leads to it getting irritated, causing her to pluck her bum. If it's a bad episode, she'll pluck a radius of a quarter (the coin).

The area around her vent is often stained from poop (no, it isn't diarrhea), and her poor little bum often looks sore. She'll sometimes go more than a month with all of her feathers in tact, but then she'll get another flare up and pluck her vent. There doesn't seem to be a pattern to it, except for poop irritating her, causing her to pluck.

Two separate vets have ruled out parasites, yeast, and bacteria. She's had a fecal smear done on two separate occasions and a gram stain done once. Everything was normal. The second vet said it was because she isn't on a 75% pelleted diet. However, I'm inclined to believe that's a bunch of nonsense, since I'm pretty sure she doesn't have a degree nutrition. I also think she was the one who prescribed Charlie, who had all the symptoms of heart disease, Metacam. Oh, and she also was pushing pellets during his visit, too. So, let's just assume it isn't diet.

But seriously, I've tried so hard. I even tried keeping a few diary for several weeks. I don't think it's allergies. I also tried doing a cleanse, using probiotics, apple cider vinegar, and less sugary foods (not that they get that much sugar). Nothing helped.

So basically, I just want to help keep her comfortable, since this problem seems like it's here to stay. Can you guys recommend any lotions, sprays, etc., to put on her bum? I want something that will create a barrier between her skin and poop, will help heal the area, and will help soothe the skin.

OK, has anyone tried to understand why she ends up with poop on /around her vent? With a normal movement the likelihood of any of the movement being left behind would be rare, assuming everything is normal. Correct?

So, unless she is sitting in it, also very rare, either there is an obstruction or her poop is what, loose?

A loose moment is either an underlying health problem or diet. Correct?

With the testing done, we can understand why the Avian Vet questioned her diet.

So, what is her diet? You never did say.

Since this seems to be something that occurs 'on occasion.' Clearly, something is on occasion coming into her diet that is driving this problem movement that sticks to her vent.

So, back to the Diary and be mind full what she is eating when this happens. Eliminate it and maybe this problem stops.

There are several Avian Soothing Sprays. Not knowing your Parrot or what is available in your area, check with you're Avian Vet for a recommendation.

I don't think either of the vets really tried to figure out why the poop gets stuck to her bum. From what I can tell, her poop always seemed normal, even when she has one of her flare ups. She's currently in an indoor aviary with six other budgies, so it's kind of hard to say which poops are whose, but her poops do seem to be fine.

In some of the cases, she may have gotten the poop on her bum from sitting on a platform perch, but most of the times it's because the poop didn't fall out of her bum properly? I honestly don't know, because the poop she gets stuck on her bum look well formed. If my memory serves me right, none of the poop that has been stuck on her vent has been wet, mushy, or especially large. Just your typical budgie poop. I honestly don't know how or why it sometimes gets stuck to her bum.

I had been feeding the budgies sprouts (millet, canary, wheat, hull-less oats, barley, buckwheat, mung beans, lentils, flax, canola), veggies (carrots, sweet potato, celery, tomato, radish, dandelion, romaine, spinach, chard, other veggies), and dry seed (millet, canary, flax, canola). I've also had them on dandelion root and milk thistle extract for well over a year, but I know it isn't the extract.

I recently switched them over to a diet of predominately sprouted grains (Kamut wheat, hull-less oats, barley), sprouted pulses (mung beans, lentils, chickpeas), veggies (lots of carrots, sweet potato, leafy greens, and tomato), and Goldn'obles III. In the evening, I also give them spray millet soaked in dandelion root and milk thistle extract to help treat Ju and Lara's cancer (the dandelion root helps). Before bed, I give them dry food consisting of Goldn'obles and dry seed. I also give them fresh RO water twice a day. I guess I'll try keeping a food diary again.

Sometimes, she becomes withdrawn and appears to be depressed. When I adopted her, she suffered from severe psychological issues from living with an animal hoarder for the first few months of her life (she'll turn two in October, and I'll have had her for two years in late January). She also appears to be almost autistic, although I can't say whether or not it is due to her traumatic upbringing. Honestly, she was a mess when I got her. She'd just scream for hours on end for the first couple of months. She was also terrified of humans, and it took her a month to figure out that spray millet was edible. She also wouldn't play or move at all. When I looked into her eyes, they were either filled with fear or were hollow and lifeless.

When I introduced her to the rest of the flock, she would only interact with Ziggy. I had adopted him a couple of days before her, so I put the two of them together after quarantine. They fell in love instantly, and finally went in with the other budgies after I bought their double-flight. For almost a year, Alice wouldn't even look at or speak to the others. Just Ziggy. At first, Samantha, Charlie, and Ju avoided her because they could tell something was off. When they got comfortable with her, they'd try to talk to her, but she didn't acknowledge them. Honestly, she wouldn't even look at them or say anything. It was as if she didn't know they were there.

Anyways, now she's a lot more active and actually plays and likes to bully the others once in a while when she's feeling naughty. She doesn't interact with the others as much as I'd like, but she does enjoy watching them. She's definitely come out of her shell and her eyes are full of life. She's also a lot more confident around humans and will eat millet while I'm holding it.

Thanks, for your Post.

Please do not take this out of context; But at present, there is no way of knowing what she is eating or when. Nor is there anyway to verify anything else either. It is just as likely that she is sitting in poop, then it is coming from her.

So, without isolation, it is the way it is. You're just going to have to keep an eye on her, remove any poop and cleaning her when ever it appears.

Check on the Avian Soothing Mist.

Okay, thanks SailBoat. I doubt it's grains or seeds that are causing the problem, since she's always eating them. I guess I'll just have to keep her bum clean (she's going to kill me), and put stuff on her bum. I'll check out the Avian Soothing Mist. I've already spent a TON of money on the kids this year, so I'll probably see if I can make up something. I mean, I just spent $250 ordering them food last night 0_0

Okay, I just checked, and I can totally make my own stuff. Ah, I'm actually volunteering at the animal shelter today, so I can pick up some stuff from the health food store while I'm out.

Sounds like a frustrating problem. Maybe considering her history, she had some sort of injury or internal problem that causes her pain around the vent.

Also I would not rule out bacteria or parasites from gram stains - they are great diagnostic tools but cannot always tell you about internal bacterial infections. Parasites such as Giardia are very hard to diagnose and catch in tests. One way to check is with a CBC to see if white blood cells are elevated (shows infection, but doesn't tell what kind), but that's hard on a little budgie and may not be worth the stress it causes her.

It might be worthwhile to consider some naturally anti-bacterial food supplements (not medicine), or neem tea spray baths to see if that helps her. I've not found topical treatments to help with plucking or mutilating - often they've made the situation worse because they stick to feathers.

My conure has food sensitivities and it has caused him to pluck his lower abdomen. It's not something a vet can solidly diagnose - just something we found from a lot of testing plus food trials. I finally found something that works for him. Since the diet changes, he still pulls feathers here and there, but leaves his belly alone.

Sorry, I just noticed your post now, Piasa. When it comes to blood tests for small birds, there's little knowledge that can be gained. You can't even check for liver enzymes with blood tests for the little guys. I think. I had a complete work up done on Noah just for a baseline, but the blood tests were a waste of money because of how little they reveal for someone as small as him.

I guess I could give her some antibacterial supplements again. The detox I did several months ago for over a month didn't seem to help. It was a regimen cayenne, cinnamon, bee pollen, garlic powder, probiotics, ACV, etc., but I don't think it really helped at all.

I can't say whether her problems are from internal damage, pathogens, or food sensitivities. It's definitely frustrating. It's especially disheartening considering most of my budgies have health issues. I mean, Pollo's nails keep needing to be clipped (they're so overgrown), Rumi is always accidentally damaging her flight feathers and may or may not have neurological issues, Lara is overweight (she has lost a ton of weight, which is good) and likely has cancer in her lower abdomen and left hip, Alice has whatever it is going on with her, Ju has testicular cancer and is going to the vet tomorrow because he has an impacted crop or something, Charlie recently died from heart disease, and Samantha had a burst preen gland from what was probably vitamin A deficiency several months ago. Not to mention Lara had to have an egg cut out of her within a month or so of Samantha's preen gland issue.

It's awful not to know what is going wrong. I'm so sorry you are having to deal with so many health issues and heartbreak with your little guys.

Edit: I realized I am being too broad with what I wrote below. I wanted to mention that the skin issues my birds were having were due to fungal infections with a secondary staph infection, potentially more that wasn't diagnosed. The round about way of healing below, along with an obscure antibiotic to get rid of the staph, is what worked for us.

I did lots of my own research, as well as vet and herbalist consulting since my guys have been ill. I have had better luck with some supplements than others. My list is more geared toward anti-fungal activity and healing liver/kidney, but things I've used that I believe were helpful are fresh ginger (GI), dandelion (fresh leaf and root tea - GI), slippery elm (GI), milkthistle (liver), turmeric (antifungal), beet juice (kidney), Melatonin (cell healing) and ground cloves (antifungal and antiparasitic). Notice the things that brought improvement are predominantly healing the GI. I give all via food or drink, with a 100% organic corn-soy-wheat-dye-free and low-mycotoxin diet. I tried many others, and more may have been effective, but it is so hard to tell as many effects are subtle. I can give you a list of what I tried, if you're interested. I've been treating them for a year now. They are still sick, but not anywhere as sick as before. YMMV

I personally am very skeptical of ACV, even though just about everyone recommends it to birds. My conure reacted very badly to it in his water, even at tiny doses. I found out that ACV often has high amounts of mycotoxins in it, and that people with candida or fungal infections are advised not to ingest any. Food for thought.

Thanks for the condolences, Piasa. I guess I should expect this ongoing list of problems, considering their species. A shorter lifespan means far more illnesses coming on in a short period of time. Not to mention how common it is for budgies to have bad genetics. I'm planning on keeping flocks of budgies for decades to come, despite the health problems they experience, since they're truly great little birds.

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Huh, I read that people with candida or fungal infections should use ACV. It's interesting to read what you wrote as I was actually thinking of consulting a herbalist, just as you. Hmm, I should probably check out to see if there's anything I'm feeding that might have mycotoxins.

Anyways, after reading what works for your guys, I decided to check out some of Lily of the Desert's products. I'm wondering if I should go with the stomach or the detox formula. Which do you think? I'm definitely buying one, though.

I only have direct experience with the Aloe Detox formula. It made the urine milky white, I believe this is a product of flushing the liver but not 100%. I used it 50/50 in carrot juice for about 2 weeks after an antibiotic treatment. Neither bird minded drinking it. Not sure how effective it was, but it didn't hurt that I could tell. They each have normal sized liver and blood tests before and after treatment for enzymes were normal.

The stomach formula has Pau d'Arco in it, which is something you can only give short term (1 weekish). I haven't been able to find details on use, so I haven't tried it.

Also note that digestive enzyme supplements are grown using fungi, antibiotics too (and even probiotics), usually Aspergillus niger. Supposedly there is no fungus left after the enzymes are created, but who knows?

You can get exhaustive lists of foods with high mycotoxins by checking out the various human candida diets. Try not to let it scare you; we are all capable of excreting many of the toxins quickly. I use this more as a guide and make my own decisions since bird needs are not the same. Basically, focus on veggies, stay away from all sugars, grains, beans and starches. I still use some sprouted beans occasionally, quinoa all the time, sprouted buckwheat and occasional oatmeal.

ACV info and food info (and other helpful things) I have learned so much from the "moldies" and mold avoidance community. May not be so relevant for your guys, but mine are sick partially or wholly because our old home had hidden mold. I never got really sick, but I did have allergies that are completely gone now that I am in a different environment and eating different things.

My experience with the herbalist was very positive. She gave me a better understanding of how things work as a whole. I know my birds benefited a lot from her help.