About to adopt, but I have concerns

I am considering adoption of an oder (20+) wild caught African Grey (Congo). I visited him this morning. I am concerned because during the 30 minutes I visited, he went poo at least 5 - 6 times. Large amounts, VERY watery. I have a large YNA and know what morning poops look like, but this African Grey's poops were at least twice, if not 3 times as copious, and very, very watery.


The bird's head feathers are a bit "out of place", almost as if looking in the wrong direction. He looks otherwise healthy and did quite a bit of playing and talking while I was there, but I can't shake the feeling that this can't be normal. I have a 54 year old Timney Grey and although he is quite the messy bird, he doesn't poop 5 times within 30 minutes, and most definitely not THAT MUCH every time. I know Timney's are smaller, but the size difference can't possibly account for the quantity of water this bird is pooping.


I wish I could have the bird examined before making my decision, but the woman is desperate and has decided that *I* am the right home for her bird. She is quite ill, has Parkison's disease and needs to go to an assistant living facility. All of her children are afraid of the bird and refuse to take it.


If any of you know what frequent watery stools mean, please let me know.


Thanks!

What is it's current diet?

Ehm, does she has to leave this week?
Otherwise: get a vecheck + bloodwork done tomorrow, most of the results will be in within a fortnight.

Frequent pooping could be because of something it ate and sheer nervousness, but since you have other birds.. do not take any chances!

I would sooner (even if the costs go through the roof) park the bird at the vets for the time being/ quarantaine -- though that is , like hospitals for humans, usually the place wehere you catch an illness.

TiredOldMan said:

What is it's current diet?

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The current diet is something called "Pretty Bird", nasty colored stuff. I've never seen or heard of it before. I didn't see any other food in the cage, though she said he likes grapes....

ChristaNL said:

Ehm, does she has to leave this week?
Otherwise: get a vecheck + bloodwork done tomorrow, most of the results will be in within a fortnight.

Frequent pooping could be because of something it ate and sheer nervousness, but since you have other birds.. do not take any chances!

I would sooner (even if the costs go through the roof) park the bird at the vets for the time being/ quarantaine -- though that is , like hospitals for humans, usually the place wehere you catch an illness.

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The woman is very obviously ill, I felt so bad for her. She couldn't stop crying because she had to find a place for the bird immediately. She had checked out some shelters but found them all too depressing.


My birds are my biggest concern. I would have to isolate him in a room until I can get him to the vet, which wouldn't be until Thursday at a the earliest. Tomorrow is.... a holiday here. Labor Day!

Grapes can account for the loose droppings.

What is the time factor for you to make the decision, seems a few days? If they are willing to give a reasonable time, you could visit and observe whether the elimination is consistently problematic. (and withhold grapes!) Ultimately it seems a vet visit is desirable, but again, the time factor is critical.

So you are "adopting" this bird from a private individual, correct? Do you know the history of this bird, such as how many owners, has the bird been DNA-tested for gender or has the bird laid eggs to confirm sex, does the bird lay eggs chronically, what type of Vet care has the bird had, etc.? The more info you can find out about the bird's history, both medical/health history as well as ownership/environment history, the better.

What is the bird's current regular, daily diet (including brands of pellets, seed-mix, etc.)? How long has the bird been on this particular diet?

You need to find out the answers to all of these questions, plus as many other questions as you can think of, BEFORE you make a decision. I don't know how long this woman has owned this CAG, but I'm going to assume that the bird hasn't had much, if any Avian Vet care due to the woman's own health issues...So this is a big worry.

How did this woman come to get this CAG? Being that it was wild-caught, just wondering what the history is...Is the bird tame/friendly? Does it interact well with people, does it step-up, etc.? Does it live in a cage all the time, or is it out all day? I'm just trying to ask all of the questions that I ask when working at the Avian Rescue that I work at...I'm the Medical Liaison, so I do all the intakes, and these are the questions that help our Avian Vet make an overall assessment of need/care.

***As far as the large, messy droppings...Yes, CAG's have very large droppings, especially first thing in the morning (I grew-up with a CAG who is now 32 and "my brother" as my mom refers to him, and I guess he actually is my brother really...His morning droppings are massive...but I'm going to guess that you weren't at the house when he did his first morning droppings, as they happen first thing when they wake up, so this wasn't that...However, it's very, very possible that this is due to his diet if he eats lots of fresh fruit, fresh veggies, and fresh greens.

However, the reason that I asked about the bird's sex and whether or not it's been either DNA-confirmed or egg-laying confirmed is that one of the early signs of an egg being in the cloaca is huge, massive, messy droppings. So if the bird is a female and is an egg-layer, it could be that she was getting ready to lay an egg...tis the season right now too for this to be happening...

Other than diet or an egg on it's way out, then you have to move-on to other physical health causes, such as a Bacterial or Fungal/Yeast Infection in the GI Tract, which would be the most common medical cause of runny, messy droppings (although not necessarily effecting the "size" of the droppings), which you can only confirm/rule-out by having a Fecal Culture and microscopy. There are a lot of other medical conditions that can account for this, but most-likely it is one of the above.

****Something I wanted to make sure you're aware of is that a proper Quarantine-Period when you bring home a new bird, any new bird, but especially a "rescue" in this particular type of situation, is AT LEAST 30 DAYS of the new bird being kept in an entirely different room than any of your current birds, with door shut and no contact, not by air or otherwise, for the entire time period...You said something about not letting the new bird out of Quarantine "until after the Vet visit", but taking a new bird for a "wellness exam" does not release the 30-day Quarantine period, and with a bird like this you seriously do not want to risk it. The problem with the "wellness exam" is that the Avian Vet can only find infections, diseases, etc. that are "active" at the time of the wellness-exam. This bird could have come into contact with contagions that have a much longer incubation-period and that would thus prevent any Vet from seeing them during the initial wellness-exam. That's why the Quarantine Period must be AT LEAST 30 DAYS, because if you allow them to even be in the same room with each other sooner than that, you're really risking undiagnosed contagions infecting your healthy birds at home.

***As far as this bird's health, i can't say anything about the feather situation without seeing it, nor can anyone else (I'm not sure what you're describing), but the large, messy droppings could be a worry, or they might simply be due to diet...If the bird is a female who has a history of egg-laying then it could also be that, which is something that should resolve itself before you would take the bird home, if not then you've got another issue if it is an egg, so that's something that you need to find out. I think it's important to establish whether or not this issue with the droppings was a one-time thing due to something the bird ate, or if it's a chronic thing, etc. So you need to ask about that...

However, regardless of the droppings issue, I would absolutely be getting this bird to either a Certified Avian Vet or at the very least an Avian Specialist Vet, and getting a full wellness-exam that absolutely includes a Fecal Culture and Microscopy, and really it should also include routine, baseline blood-work, BEFORE you make a decision whether to adopt the bird. You don't now what you're getting into with this bird, so that needs to be fair to you, but also the bird deserves to go to a family/home that is fully aware of any medical issues it has, and that will be able and willing to get the bird properly diagnosed and treated for them, regardless of the cost...Now if that's you then great, that's wonderful, but you still need to know what you're getting into, for both your sake and the sake of the bird and it's health.

My heart aches for the lady, for you, and for the Grey. Wow. Good thoughts above... I haven't much to add except YOU'RE A HERO for trying so hard.
Do keep us posted.

Oh you are all so wonderful, and yes, I've asked all these questions. I am going to respond here in red, because your post is so comprehensive that you cover it all Thank you! I'm afraid the ship has sailed however; the bird was "delivered" today at noon. At that point there was no way I could send her back home with her bird. She had to arrange for a ride with a truck (the cage on it) and she lives 45 minutes away. So here we go!

EllenD said:

So you are "adopting" this bird from a private individual, correct? Do you know the history of this bird, such as how many owners, has the bird been DNA-tested for gender or has the bird laid eggs to confirm sex, does the bird lay eggs chronically, what type of Vet care has the bird had, etc.? The more info you can find out about the bird's history, both medical/health history as well as ownership/environment history, the better.
Yes, I adopted the bird from a private owner. Adopted as in taken it in. To my flock and my family. The bird has had his nails trimmed, that's about all the vet care he got. There is no DNA on it, it could be either male or female. The lady had him/her for about 8 years, the number of old toys and the age of the cage are testament to that. Before her, another older woman had the bird, reason for giving it up = retirement home didn't take birds. Environment: the bird lived in the kitchen.


What is the bird's current regular, daily diet (including brands of pellets, seed-mix, etc.)? How long has the bird been on this particular diet?
Current diet: Pretty Bird bird food and peanuts, that's what I know for sure. Sweet potatoes at times. I just fed it carrots and broccoli, both of them very much liked. I also mixed the Pretty Bird she brought with pellets and dried veggies. Let's see how that goes. I will offer the same chop I offer my Timneh and my Amazon. They eat different things from it, but since it's chopped they get a bit of it all.


You need to find out the answers to all of these questions, plus as many other questions as you can think of, BEFORE you make a decision. I don't know how long this woman has owned this CAG, but I'm going to assume that the bird hasn't had much, if any Avian Vet care due to the woman's own health issues...So this is a big worry. As stated above, this ship has sailed

How did this woman come to get this CAG? Being that it was wild-caught, just wondering what the history is...Is the bird tame/friendly? Does it interact well with people, does it step-up, etc.? Does it live in a cage all the time, or is it out all day? I'm just trying to ask all of the questions that I ask when working at the Avian Rescue that I work at...I'm the Medical Liaison, so I do all the intakes, and these are the questions that help our Avian Vet make an overall assessment of need/care.
Smokey does not step up, but he steps up on a stick. What is it with sticks??!!! I have 4 birds who are horrified of sticks but won't mind the hand. I don't know how many hours per day he was able to be out of the cage. I asked but her answer was too vague to be believable. He doesn't seem to be overly aggressive, but then I don't push myself on him. We played ball for a bit, he let me scratch his had (a little) and he readily took veggies out of my hand.


***As far as the large, messy droppings...Yes, CAG's have very large droppings, especially first thing in the morning (I grew-up with a CAG who is now 32 and "my brother" as my mom refers to him, and I guess he actually is my brother really...His morning droppings are massive...but I'm going to guess that you weren't at the house when he did his first morning droppings, as they happen first thing when they wake up, so this wasn't that...However, it's very, very possible that this is due to his diet if he eats lots of fresh fruit, fresh veggies, and fresh greens.

I don't know what he ate yesterday morning. His poop is a little less copious today. He just played vigorously on his cage top, I sprayed him (it's hot here today) and he enjoyed it very much. He is now preening himself. I'm calling him a "him" for now. He's much to nice to be a female




However, the reason that I asked about the bird's sex and whether or not it's been either DNA-confirmed or egg-laying confirmed is that one of the early signs of an egg being in the cloaca is huge, massive, messy droppings. So if the bird is a female and is an egg-layer, it could be that she was getting ready to lay an egg...tis the season right now too for this to be happening... He has never laid an egg.

Other than diet or an egg on it's way out, then you have to move-on to other physical health causes, such as a Bacterial or Fungal/Yeast Infection in the GI Tract, which would be the most common medical cause of runny, messy droppings (although not necessarily effecting the "size" of the droppings), which you can only confirm/rule-out by having a Fecal Culture and microscopy. There are a lot of other medical conditions that can account for this, but most-likely it is one of the above.

****Something I wanted to make sure you're aware of is that a proper Quarantine-Period when you bring home a new bird, any new bird, but especially a "rescue" in this particular type of situation, is AT LEAST 30 DAYS of the new bird being kept in an entirely different room than any of your current birds, with door shut and no contact, not by air or otherwise, for the entire time period...You said something about not letting the new bird out of Quarantine "until after the Vet visit", but taking a new bird for a "wellness exam" does not release the 30-day Quarantine period, and with a bird like this you seriously do not want to risk it. The problem with the "wellness exam" is that the Avian Vet can only find infections, diseases, etc. that are "active" at the time of the wellness-exam. This bird could have come into contact with contagions that have a much longer incubation-period and that would thus prevent any Vet from seeing them during the initial wellness-exam. That's why the Quarantine Period must be AT LEAST 30 DAYS, because if you allow them to even be in the same room with each other sooner than that, you're really risking undiagnosed contagions infecting your healthy birds at home. Understood. He is in a totally different room but any airborne contagious illness would be transmitted through the central A/C. I hate the situation but hope for the best because he has not been in contact with other birds for 8 years.

***As far as this bird's health, i can't say anything about the feather situation without seeing it, nor can anyone else (I'm not sure what you're describing), but the large, messy droppings could be a worry, or they might simply be due to diet...If the bird is a female who has a history of egg-laying then it could also be that, which is something that should resolve itself before you would take the bird home, if not then you've got another issue if it is an egg, so that's something that you need to find out. I think it's important to establish whether or not this issue with the droppings was a one-time thing due to something the bird ate, or if it's a chronic thing, etc. So you need to ask about that... I will take a photo of the feathers and upload it.

However, regardless of the droppings issue, I would absolutely be getting this bird to either a Certified Avian Vet or at the very least an Avian Specialist Vet, and getting a full wellness-exam that absolutely includes a Fecal Culture and Microscopy, and really it should also include routine, baseline blood-work, BEFORE you make a decision whether to adopt the bird. You don't now what you're getting into with this bird, so that needs to be fair to you, but also the bird deserves to go to a family/home that is fully aware of any medical issues it has, and that will be able and willing to get the bird properly diagnosed and treated for them, regardless of the cost...Now if that's you then great, that's wonderful, but you still need to know what you're getting into, for both your sake and the sake of the bird and it's health.

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Yeah, yeah, that's me... you better believe it. I once rescued the world's most expensive self-mutilating Quaker Parrot, for free, of course. In the end he won, but he had 3 great years with me. Every minute of his life he was worth it. I have never met nor will I ever meet a smarter and funnier bird. He only had that one, fatal problem.


I know this will work out. I've had success before and I am very patient. The money I spend on myself is spent on the birds. You could say I'm a high-maintenance woman



Thank you for letting me doubt myself for a minute and for answering my questions., that goes for all who posted a reply. I am sure I'll be back! Hopefully with awesome photos, a great vet report, and lots of funny stories . Here goes the first one: Along with him, I now have a cat! No litter box needed, but his "MEOW" is very convincing!

Congratulations! Can't wait for pictures! Fingers crossed on the health!!!! My quaker meows and barks!!! The barks are the worst cuz they make my dogs bark, abd the other parrots scream! Lol and she pulls that out of the bag if the house is nice and peaceful... This bird got lucky he found you, finally a forever home!!! Can't wait to see what words he springs on you. Head scratches the first day?!?!?! Awesome!

The avian vet exam went well, Smokey seemed healthy and the vet did a throat swab, blood exam, and stool exam. It seems one of the tests revealed "some" klebsiella and psudomonas. The vet prescribed probiotics for the water, and Enrofloxacin twice a day for 10 days.



Does anyone have more information on these two bacteria? I've googled for hours now but would appreciate comments from someone whose bird has had these infections.

I’m late coming to this thread but I’m so grateful for what you’ve done. I’ve not had any experience with those infections but your vet sounds spot on. I hope to see pictures and get good news - greys are special. And yes, the [emoji90] is massive at times [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] I always work with my greys to get them somewhat poo trained. They’re smart enough for sure!


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I think the lady had problems with keeping a clean house (never easy with diseases like Parkinsons anyway) - klebsiella and pseudomonas are more linked (in my mind anyway) with not-so-clean houses (with mold buildup etc.) than with a birdy-disease.
(Thats where I heard these mentioned a lot; in programs about hoarders of just not-very-well cleaned houses. They not great for humans either- but good hygiene will get rid of most of it.)


Pseudomonas -> also a gram negative, is everywhere, so it's kind of interesting to know the strain. (It's a big "family")
Most vets wil just go with "gram negative is high / low" and not specify (if it is low).


==


I love that you took the grey in -> keeping my fingers crossed for a nice, gentle settling in with no further surprises.

I'm glad everything seems to be going well so-far...HOWEVER, can I make a suggestion to you about the Probiotics you're giving him?

***I have given all of my birds a Probiotic supplement every single day for the last 10 years, and not one of them has EVER suffered from either a fungal/yeast or bacterial infection, nor any type of GI Tract/Crop/Sinus issue. I'm a huge believer in Prebiotics and Probiotics for overall general health, and take one myself every day as well. My Bearded Dragon also gets one every day. They cannot do any harm, and can only help, so why not...HOWEVER....

I don't EVER, EVER, EVER suggest putting anything in your bird's drinking water at all, not EVER...There are two reasons for this, the most important one being that you instantly contaminate your bird's drinking water the second you put anything at all in it, and I'm talking ANYTHING at all...a multi-vitamin supplement, a probiotic supplement, an antibiotic (this is really bad), etc. The other main reason you don't EVER want to give your bird anything at all by putting it in their drinking water is because you have no idea whatsoever the dose that your bird is getting, whether it be too high or too low. Birds don't drink much water throughout the day at all, so if you're giving them a medication in their drinking water, such as an antibiotic, not only do you not know what dose of the medication he's getting, but chances are that he's not getting even a fraction of the dosage he needs to be effective (I hope that the Baytril that you're giving him is given orally and not as a powder/liquid you put in his water, please tell me the Vet didn't prescribe antibiotics in his water)...On the other end of the spectrum, if you're giving him one of those "Vitamin-Drops" in his drinking water, which are all cheap and contain extremely high amounts of both the vitamins and minerals, you're likely overdosing them with one drink of water, and this can turn into a HUGE health problem over-time because they contain both Fat-Soluble Vitamins which are not excreted in the urates but rather just continually accumulate in the fat-cells (vitamins A, D, E, and K), as well as large amounts of certain minerals that over-time can actually cause Iron-Storage Disease and eventually heavy-metal poisoning...With birds it's the Iron Storage Disease/Syndrome that usually occurs, and is fatal.

***Bottom-line here is that you should NEVER give your bird any type of medication or health supplements in their drinking water, not ever, because you're "blind-dosing" them, which is obviously not good, and you're also contaminating their drinking water instantly and this can result quickly in a secondary-bacterial or fungal infection in their GI Tracts/Crops...(not to mention that as long as his diet is healthy and varied, birds don't need to be given any type of multi-vitamin supplement unless they are diagnosed as suffering from some kind of nutritional deficiency)....

****The responsible, much more accurate way to give your bird a daily Probiotic supplement, which I not only insist that people give their birds while they are taking an antibiotic, like Smokey is with the Baytril, but also for at least 1 week after he finishes the antibiotic, but that I highly recommend that you give them every day anyway, is by buying a high-quality Avian Probiotic supplement that is POWDERED, and that comes with a pre-measured daily dosing spoon/scoop. You put the Probiotic powder on their food rather than in their water, so this eliminates contaminating their water on a daily basis, and it also ensures that you're not only giving them the correct daily dose of the Probiotics, but that they ingest it all (as long as they eat all of their solid food during the day)...I have done research over the years on both Avian and Reptile Probiotic supplements, mostly on which strains of bacteria the different brands contain, the amounts of each strain that they contain, and on which ones require the smallest dose of powder to get an adequate dose in the bird or reptile. And believe it or not, the brand that comes out on-top is Qwiko, who makes a powdered, daily Probiotic that is specially formulated for parrots, and which comes with a pre-measure dosing scoop, and which the required dose of powder is smaller than any other brand that I've used. So I've been giving each of my birds, including all of my breeder-birds, a daily dose of the powdered Qwiko Avian Probiotic supplement for the last 4 years with fantastic results; prior to using the Qwiko I used a few different brands that I ordered online, which were much more expensive (I was using an Avian Probiotic made by Ecotrition for 2 years that cost me $30 a bottle, and a bottle only lasted a month per bird!). I also tried one that used to be only available by prescription from an Avian Vet that I could buy online from an Avian medical supplies company who also sold antibiotics, anti-fungals, and all other types of prescription meds for birds online without a prescription...And that Probiotic actually made their droppings runny, which is exactly the opposite effect they should have, lol. Once I found the Qwiko Probiotics I never looked back, and it's been a Godsend ever since. I've literally never had a sick bird, no runny stools, no regurgitating/vomiting, no lack of appetite, and best of all, not a single infection.

You can buy a bottle of the Qwiko powdered Probiotic at any Petco for $8.99, and for one bird the bottle will last you 6 months. It's such an inexpensive, simple thing that any and all bird owners can do to keep their birds healthy. I never have to worry about any secondary fungal-infections from them taking medication, or from the occasional bag of contaminated pellets or seed mix (which happens much more often than it should), or from them putting their food/pellets in their water, etc. (again, another reason why you should never put any type of medication or supplement in your bird's drinking water, as it can actually cause a secondary fungal or bacterial infection due to growth in the water)...The Qwiko powdered Probiotics come with a tiny, pre-measured scoop inside the bottle, and it's a very small daily amount that they need. And you simply sprinkle it on top of whatever "staple" food they eat daily, whether it be pellets or a seed-mix, you just sprinkle the very small dose right on top of the pellets or the seed-mix (I feed both daily to my birds, they get both pellets as their main staple and then a small portion of a healthy, low-fat seed-mix, and I've found that putting the Probiotic powder right on top of their seed mix works like a charm, as they always finish all of their seed-mix first, so the Probiotic goes right in them first thing). And that's all there is to it. Once a day. And I suggest this to ALL bird owners. I

I also give my Bearded Dragon a daily Probiotic, however it's obviously a different one. For the Beardies I highly recommend that with every live-insect feeding they get a HUMAN PROBIOTIC THAT ALSO INCLUDES A DIGESTIVE ENZYME MIX (babies and juveniles up to a year should be getting live-insects every single day, adults can be given live-insects every day as well, but some people go to only 2-3 or 3-4 days of the week, either way, you want to dust the live insects in the Probiotic powder every time you feed them live insects, just mix the Probiotic powder in with your Calcium and Multi-Vitamin powders). The reason I use and recommend using a Human Probiotic that includes a Digestive Enzyme mix is because Bearded Dragons kept in captivity unfortunately don't typically eat a fantastic diet, and even those whose owners take the best care of their Beardies and feed them the best daily diet still tend to have issues with hard-stools and impactions, along with trouble digesting the hard, chitlin shells that are a part of a lot of the commonly available feeder insects, such as Mealworms, Superworms, Dubia Roaches, etc. ALSO, unfortunately, most Beardies aren't under an adequate type of nor strong enough UVB light, and are also often kept at ambient temperatures that are far too low on the Hot-Side, or they have no ambient-temperature gradient inside of their tanks/vivs at all, and as a result of all of these issues they commonly have a lot of issues digesting any live insects with shells of any kind, often either passing the insects whole or in chunks of undigested shells, or becoming chronically impacted. So dusting their live insects daily in a Probiotic that also contains a Digestive Enzyme Complex helps their GI Tracts out tremendously in both fully-digesting hard-shelled insects, as well as then allowing their bodies to be able to fully-absorb ALL of the nutrition made available by the live insects as a whole.

Let the fun begin! Smokey should respond well to the antibiotics, a follow up at some interval will validate the therapy as successful.

CristinaNL is right those are found in the environment everywhere, but build up in unclean places. A stressed bird with poor nutrition, and lack of direct sunlight is more vulnerable to becoming sick. I'm so glad you took this guy on!!