Getting conflicting information please help

Hi there guys. I take my new bird, a golden conure, home soon.

Here is the problem. The contract states that writhing 72 hours the bird must see a vet and have a bird wellness exam and of the bird is deemed "unfit" for sale, I must being it back to the breeder with proof it is not healthy enough to be sold.... I called the vet that the breederuses and asked them how much that would cost. They said around 80.

I said does that cover all the tests he would need to look for underlying illness (since birds hide illness very well), and the vet office said they don't do any testing and that it is just a general check up.

WHAT?

How on earth would one be able to tell if their new bird is sick without gram stains, cbc, chem panel, etc?

Shouldn't this vet visit cover all of that to rule out illness? How in earth is a general check up deemed to be enough here?

It doesn't make sense at all. Otherwise a normal checkup in a sick bird showing no symptoms, obviously will not catch their underlying illness....

...


Any other vets in the area that you could use?

Well, I think you answered your own question... it won't.
However, to most people it will look good on the breeder's behalf, and if the bird falls ill in another week, month, etc to a level that's actually noticeable and dies or costs hundreds to fix, the breeder can then dust their hands off and say "Well, my vet said the bird was fine, so obviously you killed it."
It's to cover their own butt, for better or for worse.
But hey, at least the breeder does that. A lot of breeders have much less of a health policy/guarantee.

When I got all my birds a full work up for infectious diseases, yeast everything ect...It was around $300 a bird. I had to do it so I could volunteer at a local bird sanctuary because if my birds were sick they could potentially kill ALL of the 100 birds there.

Congrats on the golden conure! I would love once, but they are $2k and require a permit since there are no breeders of them in my state. Sounds like you got lucky in that your breeder is in your area.

As for the 'health policy', it really does seem to be a flaw in that kind of system, as results for these aren't usually ready for a couple days after gram stains anyways. Are you seeing a certified avian vet or an 'exotics' vet? There's a big difference between the two. With a wellness exam they get a physical, weighed, ears and mouth looked into, the doctor will feel around to make sure bones are where they should be, no lumps or anything, looks in eyes, etc. so they will be able to see on the outside if there is anything wrong but yes, it will be very difficult to tell if there is an underlying medical issue without gram stains.

Most won't (at least that I know of)...
Testing for everything would be insanely costly...
*PDD testing (or ABV) Testing combines a variety of tests within a panel but it can be negative even if a bird is infected (must be shedding it at the time)
*PBFD also uses a combination of PCR panels (blood) +feather tests
*There are a million special panels for blood
*cloaca swabs CAN test for polyoma etc
*Crop swabs/cultures can be performed for various reasons
*gram-stain is easy
*scoping and xrays can detect hidden issues
*serology and PCR testing (still blood-related) are helpful too



I had to pay for everything other than stuff that my bird had already been tested for before coming to me.



Most basic tests= CBC, gram stain and swab tests for various diseases.

I just go for the all-in now. If I buy tests directly from the lab I just get the big 4 and DNA done from blood and psittacosis from cloaca swab, of course the rest: overall healthcheck, blooddraw, poop/fecal-analysis (parasite controll) etc is done by the CAV.
If I let the CAV do everything it's around 250-300 Euro.
By buying the tests myself I get it down to 150-180.


=

PBFDtesting via feathers is useless- because basicly you never know which bird you are testing ... since feathers also collect a lot of dust from the environment and there maybe PBFD-DNA ON the feathers but not IN your bird at all!
It's only usefull if you want a general idea if a group is healthy and then it is still hit-and-miss (PBFD may be around, but not on that particulair tested feather...)

to sound like Count Dracula: go for blood!

=

The only person in NL who sells birds under those conditions is a notorious run-away-as-far-as-you-can seller of (often) sick birds and uses this construct to get out of lawsuits.
You *have* to use his vet and even then if something is wrong "your" vet is "his" (on his side).
So buy a bird there at your own perril and have your bird double tested (a CAV for your peace of mind and to have on your side in case of arguments and *his* vet to complete the contract)
as always: a cheap bird becomes an expensive bird very fast!

Reputable breeders have their babies tested before you even show up (or to make sure everything is really correctly done: when you are there and can witness it!) - yes the bird is slightly more expensive, but this one IS healthy to start with...

I am with Morty on this one: this is for the benefit of the breeder/seller, not the bird.

You should be able to pick any vet---I never was told where I had to go..

You should NEVER use the vet that the breeder tells you to use, as there is a reason they are telling you to do so, lol...

And a "wellness exam" is just a physical/visual exam and proves nothing at all about the health of the bird, this is just a "CYA" tactic of the pet shop/breeder.

You need to find your own CAV or Avian Specialist Vet that is totally independent of the pet shop/breeder, and the "Wellness Exam" absolutely must include AT LEAST a Fecal Culture to test for bacterial and/or fungal/yeast infections. At your baby bird's age they may or may not be able to do a blood-draw, it depends on his weight. Golden Conures, IF THEY ARE FULLY WEANED WHEN YOU TAKE THEM HOME, AS THEY SHOULD/MUST BE, should be large enough to also do a routine blood-work panel, which will include his complete blood count (CBC), to show infection, whether he's anemic, whether he has any internal bleeding, etc., and then also includes his liver and kidney functions, which is extremely important, as most Congenital Diseases and the most common Illnesses that effect young, just weaned baby birds usually effect the liver and or the kidneys. If they can't do a blood draw due to his size being too small then they can't, there isn't much you can do about that, but you must take in a fresh dropping from the morning before his appointment and pay for the extra Fecal Culture/Gram-Stain, because it's extremely common for newly-weaned baby birds who have been raised in a pet shop or in a breeder's home, with other birds/animals, to have both bacterial and fungal infections, and this will require treatment with prescription meds, and you shouldn't have to pay for this, nor should you have to bring home a sick baby bird in the first place...Protect yourself and protect your new baby bird!!!

And please don't EVER use the Veterinarian that the pet shop/breeder recommends or says that "they use", as that vet will likely never find anything wrong with a baby bird that comes from one of their paying-clients. They may even have a deal worked out between them. Vets are unscrupulous too, just like police officers, doctors, teachers, etc. It unfortunately happens....

***If there is not other Certified Avian Vet or Avian Specialist Vet within an hour or two of you (it's well worth the drive, trust me, otherwise you're simply throwing away $80 for absolutely nothing), then you're still going to be much better-off taking the baby bird to the closest Exotic's Vet that treats birds, and simply requesting a "Wellness Exam" that DEFINITELY INCLUDES a Fecal Culture/Gram-Stain/Microscopy and a routine blood-panel if it's possible for them to do. Most Exotic's Vets won't do a blood draw on any age bird, as they aren't comfortable with it, so that's why it's much better to find the next-closest CAV or Avian Specialist to you other than the pet shop's/breeder's Avian Vet, as an Exotic's Vet also can't just visually look at/examine a bird and tell that it's unhealthy by just the health of it's feathers, skin, feet/toenails, eyes, under it's wings (looking specifically for feather-mites and improperly growing wing feathers), looking at their cere/beak/nares, etc. So if you have to drive a few hours one-way to get to the next closest Certified Avian Vet or Avian Specialist Vet then do it, because it's the only way to even have a chance of knowing whether you're going to end-up with a parrot that will have life-long congenital issues due to bad breeding, inbreeding, etc., or for that matter a serious, acute illness, infection, or disease that is going to cost you a small fortune to treat and may kill your bird.

***You need to keep in-mind and remember that after that 72-hour health guarantee is over, you're stuck with ANY and ALL congenital conditions, acute illnesses, diseases, or infections, and anything else that may be wrong with your new baby, and the only way you can get your money back or get the pet shop/breeder to pay the potential thousands of dollars in future Avian Vet bills that it might cost you to save the life of your bird or to correct any neurological issues he may have due to bad breeding, force-weaning, unsanitary conditions, etc. is to then take the pet shop owner/breeder to small-claims court. So paying the pet shop's/breeder's Vet $80 for nothing but an office visit where they will weigh the baby bird, do a quick, visual exam of him, and then tell you he's fine will serve you absolutely no good. He needs to be seen by an Avian Vet who is totally independent of the pet shop/breeder, and he must have at the very least a Fecal Culture/Gram-Stain/Microscopy, a visual/light check for all possible external parasites, such as Feather-Mites (they turn out the lights and use a pen-light to shine under their wings to expose the mites), and if possible based on the size/weight of your baby, a routine blood-panel to check for general infection, anemia,
any unseen bleeding or loss of blood, and both his liver and kidney function (as well as any malnutrition or nutritional deficiencies that can occur due to bad-breeding/hand-feeding as well as a Force-Weaning situation... In addition, ONLY a Certified Avian Vet or an Avian Specialist Vet is going to be able to recognize whether or not your new baby bird is exhibiting/displaying any signs/symptoms of a Neurological Condition, which is very, very important to find out BEFORE you totally accept the baby as being "healthy" and make the deal final, because if the baby bird was Force-Weaned, he will most-likely have a LIFETIME OF NEUROLOGICAL/PSYCHOLOGICAL/BEHAVIORAL ISSUES, and only a CAV or Avian Specialist Vet is going to be able to identify any Neurological behaviors/issues that the baby is displaying.

***You can bet your life that the pet shop's/breeder's Vet will not tip you off to any Neurological signs/symptoms that your baby is displaying that indicate that he may have been Force-Weaned and may potentially have life-long issues as such...Just as senior forum member SunnyClover about her Nanday Conure Farley and why it's extremely important to have a new baby bird that you're buying from a pet shop/breeder checked right away before you finalize the purchase for Neurological Issues due to Force-Weaning/bad breeding practices...It ends with nothing but a lifetime (30-40 years in this case) of heartbreak and frustration...

Please do not ever hesitate to ask us any and all questions that you have pertaining to this...

I've been rehoming, rescuing or purchasing and fostering or adopting birds for decades and was regularly required to visit an AV within _ many days. The only birds not having this requirement were rehomes and some fosters directly from the previous owner. (It was assumed rehomes and fosters had been visiting an AV on a regular basis.)

I take this very seriously. My AV does a full run of tests for a wellness exam. I had reason to doubt the health of my smallest, rehomed conure and went. It was because of this exam that we have NOT visited my AV multiple times since acquiring him.

Some feel free to ignore this, but besides being in your new bird's best interest, it's a legal and binding agreement you're making.

If your AV doesn't check your bird fully at a wellness exam including tests and suggest any necessary clips, you should contact the certifying agency and report this malpractice. If they're not certified as an avian veterinarian, there is no malpractice involved. I agree that only in cases of destitution should you visit your breeder's or sanctuary's AV. If you're destitute, you should not consider a bird as a pet!

Something that hasn't been mentioned and needs to be said regarding this particular baby Golden Conure is that it's already been established in a prior post that he's coming from an unscrupulous pet shop where the "breeder" is not a breeder at all, but actually the owner/manager of the pet shop. And if it's the same baby that the OP had a deposit on and has been visiting for months already, then this baby Golden Conure is already quite sick with some type of upper respiratory infection/sinus infection, and there is also a very great possibility that this baby was not properly abundance-weaned by this pet shop owner at all...In fact, if I remember correctly, when this baby Conure first became very ill with some type of infection, this pet shop owner or "breeder" refused to take the bird to any vet at all for a good week, and instead just started giving the baby Baytril on his own, without any cultures or diagnostic tests being done to identify what type of infection the baby actually had...and then when they did take the baby to a vet, long after it became ill, they took it to an Exotic's Vet who did nothing at all...

So the potential for this poor baby Golden Conure to be suffering from active infections right now, as well as severe neurological issues due to poor breeding and weaning practices is huge.

While I admire you for sticking with this poor little baby parrot, simply because you've bonded closely with him, at the same time you are already quite aware of the state of his health; The probability that you are going to be taking this baby to either a CAV or Avian Specialist Vet multiple times within the first month of owning him is almost 100%, if for no other reason than he is probably still suffering from the acute upper respiratory/sinus infection that he has already had for months (or whatever it was, you don't even really know because he was never taken to an Avian Vet and properly diagnosed or treated)...

My point here is that #1 The pet shop's/"breeder's" Vet is already known by you to be only an Exotic's Vet who has no extra education, training, or experience in treating birds, and has already shown that they do not know what they are doing; So please do yourself and your bird a favor and do not take him back to that vet for his "wellness exam", as you should already know how that is going to end. #2 You really do need to make sure that you have both a Fecal Culture and a Crop/Throat/Nasal Culture done on this baby BEFORE the 72 hours is up, because the chances of him still being very sick and carrying bacterial, fungal, and viral infections are very high...There is no reason at all that you should have to end-up paying to properly diagnose and treat an infection/illness that the baby has already been known to have for months, and that the pet shop owner was unwilling to have properly diagnosed and treated.

****Heed our warnings, please...Yesterday I didn't realize who you were, or didn't remember/put it together...Now that I remember that baby's health/breeding history, I am really going to try to push for you to find yourself only a Certified Avian Vet or Avian Specialist Vet who only treats birds, and schedule his wellness exam with them within that 72-hour window. I don't know why you would even consider taking him back to that Exotic's Vet who "works with" that pet shop, but you need to really sit down and think about what you are potentially stepping into with this baby...That 72-hour window is the ONLY legal recourse you have with the pet shop owner, and if you don't get him properly diagnosed and get a treatment-plan written-up by a CAV or Avian Specialist Vet that not only knows what they're doing, but who also has no association with that damn pet shop owner, you're going to end-up spending a small fortune on this baby bird in the first few months of ownership.

You are going to have to find yourself either a CAV or Avian Specialist Vet anyway for the future (your bird should have a complete Wellness-Exam that includes a Fecal Culture and routine, baseline blood-work done at least once a year, if not every 6 months, for the rest of his life). So you might as well protect yourself and the health and well-being of your new bird, find an experienced CAV right now, schedule an appointment over the phone now with them for his initial Wellness-Exam, and make sure you take control of your bird's health and well-being starting right now; while you are on the phone scheduling his Wellness-Exam with whatever CAV you choose, you need to REQUEST/DEMAND that this initial Wellness-Exam include not only a visual/physical exam, but also a complete Fecal-Culture, an Upper-Respiratory Culture(s) since he has already been suffering from an acute URI that went untreated properly (PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU EXPLAIN OVER THE PHONE ABOUT THE ILLNESS HE HAS ALREADY SUFFERED FROM, AS WELL AS HOW THE PET-SHOP OWNER HANDLED/TREATED IT HIMSELF WITH BAYTRIL), as well as a routine blood-work panel that includes a both Liver and Kidney panels. You are probably going to spend around $200 for this initial exam with the tests at a CAV or Avian Specialist, possibly a little more...I pay my CAV $250 for my bird's yearly Wellness Exams that include a Fecal Culture, Blood-Work, and also an X-Ray...Since your bird has already been suffering from an Upper-Respiratory Infection/Illness, you really do need to include an Upper-Respiratory Culture Profile, because if he was actually suffering from a serious respiratory condition/infection, such as Aspergilliosis, you have no way of knowing that,
and this will cost you not hundreds but thousands to treat/cure. Again, protect yourself and your bird!!!

Paying an experienced, reputable CAV/Avian Specialist who has absolutely NO ASSOCIATION with that pet shop/"breeder" to do a proper Wellness-Exam that includes all necessary cultures and blood tests may cost you $200-$250 now, but that piece of paper that the CAV will give you to give to the pet shop owner that says "This baby Golden Conure is suffering from Aspergilliosis, he needs proper testing and treatment for it, and is unfit to sell until he receives the tests and treatment and is then cleared of the infection" (insert whatever illness/infection they find where I put "Aspergilliosis") is going to potentially save you hundreds if not thousands of dollars more within the first month or two of bringing him home, or much, much worse.

I thought you had decided NOT to buy this baby, or ANY baby from that awful pet shop??? I worry only because I have a horrible feeling that you are setting yourself up for heartbreak with this baby Conure, not to mention spending a fortune on trying to help him...So if you're absolutely set on bringing this baby Golden Conure home, at least do the responsible thing for both you and the baby, and get him to a proper CAV/Avian Specialist within that 72-hour window, that way at the very least the shop-owner will have to pay for any treatment he needs, and he'll be forced to follow what the CAV that you choose says needs to be done.