Breathing problem Kiki

Alex_Kiki

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Nov 27, 2016
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1
The Netherlands
Parrots
Kiki, a sulphur crested cockatoo (eleonora).
Kiki was born in January 1995 and She's with us Since she was 4 months old.
Yesterday we had to go to our CAV with an emergency.

Kiki was having breathing problems due to liquid in her belly.

They did an echo, examined her poop and the liquid.

Most likely she has peritonitis.

They took as much of the liquid out as possible. She's now on medication, antibioticum, pain killer and anti-inflammatory.

It hurts me so much to see her having difficulty in breathing. She's hanging on the side bars of the cage most of the time.
Today she's a bit better than yesterday.

Tomorrow morning we have another appointment at the CAV. They'll do x-ray to find the cause.

Even though she is so ill, she is still cheerful, and eats and drinks normally.

The best xmas present I can think of is having her healthy with us.

Alex
 

ChristaNL

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Sunny a female B&G macaw;
Japie (m) & Appie (f), both are congo african grey;
All are rescues- had to leave their previous homes for 'reasons', are still in contact with them :)
Ohoes, I am so sorry for you all.
I hope the meds will help her and Kiki will pull through.


Best wishes and positive thoughts heading your way.
Keep us posted?
 
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Alex_Kiki

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Nov 27, 2016
39
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The Netherlands
Parrots
Kiki, a sulphur crested cockatoo (eleonora).
Kiki was born in January 1995 and She's with us Since she was 4 months old.
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Kiki in better times:
 

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Laurasea

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Wow, I hope for healing. How did she get peritonitis? Puncture in GI? External wound? Sending every possible positive thoughts your way.
 
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Alex_Kiki

New member
Nov 27, 2016
39
1
The Netherlands
Parrots
Kiki, a sulphur crested cockatoo (eleonora).
Kiki was born in January 1995 and She's with us Since she was 4 months old.
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Wow, I hope for healing. How did she get peritonitis? Puncture in GI? External wound? Sending every possible positive thoughts your way.

Thanks!

No external wound. It's possibly yolk peritonitis, but hopefully they'll find out tomorrow.
 

EllenD

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Senegal Parrot named "Kane"; Yellow-Sided Green Cheek Conure named "Bowie"; Blue Quaker Parrot named "Lita Ford"; Cockatiel named "Duff"; 8 American/English Budgie Hybrids; Ringneck Dove named "Dylan"
Are they sure that it's actually "Peritonitis"? The reason I ask is that it's not uncommon to have a bird that is starting to retain free-fluid in their abdomen, and it's typically due to a cardiac issue, namely a valve issue causing "back-flow"...You said they did an Echo, what did they find? Any heart murmurs heard? I'm assuming that's what they were thinking when they chose to do the Echo...It's just odd to find free-fluid in the abdomen and have it be Peritonitis without a very obvious cause that is hitting you right in the face, like an egg that was deposited outside of the Oviduct and into the belly instead, or an injury to an internal organ, or necrosis of an organ/tissue, etc. Does she regularly lay eggs? Has she ever been egg-bound before?

Actually though, if it is Peritonitis, as long as they can find the exact cause and know what treatment plan to follow (which is very straight-forward with Peritonitis, you simply treat the infection and address the cause), it's a much better diagnosis than say a faulty heart-valve, because there's little that can be done about a heart issue except to put the bird on Lasix for the rest of their life and regularly drain the fluid from their belly...With Peritonitis, once you treat it and it's gone, then it's gone for good, and you don't have to put the bird through constant procedures to drain the fluid, and they don't have to be on strong loop-diuretics for the rest of their lives...

So Positive-Energy to you and your bird, I know that a diagnosis of Peritonitis must be extremely scary for you, but it sounds like you have a very experienced CAV who knows exactly what needs to be done and is good at what they do. They've already got her on Antibiotics and pain-med/anti-inflammatories, and I'm assuming a Diuretic such as Lasix, and I'm sure that your CAV will know exactly how to treat this once they determine the what has caused it. Peritonitis due to "egg issues", and there are many, are not uncommon, and most CAVs have dealt with this...

Like I said, if I had to choose between my bird having an acute case of Peritonitis due to an ectopic egg outside of the Oviduct having ruptured or something similar, or my bird collecting fluid in their belly due to a faulty heart-valve or other cardiac issue that there is no treatment for, I would definitely choose the Peritonitis. So we'll be thinking about you and Kiki in our thoughts...Keep us posted on how she's doing...
 
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Alex_Kiki

New member
Nov 27, 2016
39
1
The Netherlands
Parrots
Kiki, a sulphur crested cockatoo (eleonora).
Kiki was born in January 1995 and She's with us Since she was 4 months old.
  • Thread Starter
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  • #7
Are they sure that it's actually "Peritonitis"? The reason I ask is that it's not uncommon to have a bird that is starting to retain free-fluid in their abdomen, and it's typically due to a cardiac issue, namely a valve issue causing "back-flow"...You said they did an Echo, what did they find? Any heart murmurs heard? I'm assuming that's what they were thinking when they chose to do the Echo...It's just odd to find free-fluid in the abdomen and have it be Peritonitis without a very obvious cause that is hitting you right in the face, like an egg that was deposited outside of the Oviduct and into the belly instead, or an injury to an internal organ, or necrosis of an organ/tissue, etc. Does she regularly lay eggs? Has she ever been egg-bound before?

Actually though, if it is Peritonitis, as long as they can find the exact cause and know what treatment plan to follow (which is very straight-forward with Peritonitis, you simply treat the infection and address the cause), it's a much better diagnosis than say a faulty heart-valve, because there's little that can be done about a heart issue except to put the bird on Lasix for the rest of their life and regularly drain the fluid from their belly...With Peritonitis, once you treat it and it's gone, then it's gone for good, and you don't have to put the bird through constant procedures to drain the fluid, and they don't have to be on strong loop-diuretics for the rest of their lives...

So Positive-Energy to you and your bird, I know that a diagnosis of Peritonitis must be extremely scary for you, but it sounds like you have a very experienced CAV who knows exactly what needs to be done and is good at what they do. They've already got her on Antibiotics and pain-med/anti-inflammatories, and I'm assuming a Diuretic such as Lasix, and I'm sure that your CAV will know exactly how to treat this once they determine the what has caused it. Peritonitis due to "egg issues", and there are many, are not uncommon, and most CAVs have dealt with this...

Like I said, if I had to choose between my bird having an acute case of Peritonitis due to an ectopic egg outside of the Oviduct having ruptured or something similar, or my bird collecting fluid in their belly due to a faulty heart-valve or other cardiac issue that there is no treatment for, I would definitely choose the Peritonitis. So we'll be thinking about you and Kiki in our thoughts...Keep us posted on how she's doing...


Thanks for your kind words Ellen!

They're not yet sure about the cause, but the liquid they took out of her was brown and had specific bacterias.

When birds have liquid due to organ problems, the liquid is clear (so I was told).

Also heart and liver are good.

About 10 years ago Kiki had an egg without scale, and nearly died. She had to stay a week in hospital. She refused to start eating again and was tube fed for several days. After she recovered we switched to pellets.

Three years ago she had a rough year and laid 8 eggs. But since then she hasn't laid eggs anymore.

I have a lot of confidence in the CAV and desperately hope Kiki will recover. Hopefully tomorrow they'll find out the cause.

I'll keep you updated on the progress.
 

Laurasea

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So I'd guess is probably a reproductive peritonitis, very scary. Glad you got her in and on treatment, abd lots of prayers for recovery!! I wonder if when she recovers an implant, or injection to stop reproduction might be a good idea for her. I think spaying a bird is pretty difficult and risky, but might be something to discuss with vet, for after she is fully recovered.. be very careful with her, that is pretty serious.in mammals they sometimes would do a surgical flush of the abdomen and put in a drain, but birds are so very different.. hopefully she can recover, ugh so sorry you are going through this!!!88
 
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Alex_Kiki

New member
Nov 27, 2016
39
1
The Netherlands
Parrots
Kiki, a sulphur crested cockatoo (eleonora).
Kiki was born in January 1995 and She's with us Since she was 4 months old.
  • Thread Starter
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  • #9
Today Kiki stayed at the CAV. We just brought her home.

The cause of the peritonitis is probably an egg yoke that got stuck in the uterus, and the next egg pushing it. The cav is 85% sure that this is the cause.

Unfortunately there is only 1 specialized bird radiologist in The Netherlands that can exactly pinpoint the cause, but that (animal) hospital is closed this week. We'll go with the cav's diagnosis. In case Kiki gets worse, we can go to the hospital anyway, they already sent Kiki's details there and warned them in case of emergency.

So for now Kiki Got an anti-hormonal injection to stop her producing eggs for now. We'll repeat that during the week.

Kiki is already slightly improving. Hopefully with these meds she'll pull through.

In the future we'll get her an implant to stop her producing eggs. This will only start working after six weeks, and it is too risky getting it now.

We're so happy that she looks a bit better, she is now sitting on her perch instead of hanging on the side bars to make the liquid go down instead of pushing her longs. She seems better now, eats and drinks well, and she even jumped up and down with her head in the typical parrot way. :white1:

I want to thank you all for your support and wish you all a merry Xmas!!

I'll keep you updated.
 

Scott

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Aug 21, 2010
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Goffins: Gabby, Abby, Squeaky, Peanut, Popcorn / Citron: Alice / Eclectus: Angel /Timneh Grey: ET / Blue Fronted Amazon: Gonzo /

RIP Gandalf and Big Bird, you are missed.
I'm so glad beautiful Kiki has improved and seems to have a treatable diagnosis. Seems you are on the right track on a strategy to prevent unwanted (and dangerous) egg laying.
 

EllenD

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Senegal Parrot named "Kane"; Yellow-Sided Green Cheek Conure named "Bowie"; Blue Quaker Parrot named "Lita Ford"; Cockatiel named "Duff"; 8 American/English Budgie Hybrids; Ringneck Dove named "Dylan"
Awesome!!! I totally agree 100% with going with that diagnosis based on her reproductive history...And yes, if the liquid in her belly was NOT clear, but rather red, brown, or green, then it's not being collected due to a heart or kidney issue, but rather due to infection for sure. I've drained many a belly of birds, reptiles, and dogs due to either cardiac or kidney issues, and it's always clear or opaque-yellow. If the fluid contain specific-bacteria, then based on her reproductive history you guys made the right call...And that would also make it easy for your CAV to prescribe the correct antibiotic therapy as well...

So even though this is very, very scary, as Peritonitis always is in anyone, it's been caught early and the correct treatment started early, and it's something that once it's gone, it's gone for good and not a worry any longer, as opposed to a heart or kidney issue, so it's definitely the lessor of two-evils in this situation. And I have to say that I'm very, very happy that she is eating on her own, that's such a positive sign!!! Usually with Peritonitis they are so sick and feel so absolutely miserable that they can't even be syringe fed, they have to be tube-fed because they just want nothing to do with food at all...So the fact that she's eating on her own at all, even if it's just a little bit, is amazingly awesome!!! This is a great Christmas present!!!

***In-regard to the hormone implant, I highly recommend talking to your CAV about the Deslorelin implant, as we have had incredible success at my avian/reptile rescue with it. In-contrast to some of the other hormone implants/injections, such as Lupron and other "Depot" hormone treatments, the Deslorelin implant (we use the 4.7mg or the 9.5mg implants, not the 2.1mg) has had a 100% success rate at the rescue in completely stopping the production of follicles/eggs. We've had very spotty success with all of the others, and it seems like some vets are so familiar with the older hormone treatments like Lupron that they hesitate to try anything different, even though Lupron has about a 50/50 chance of working (and it also has some unpleasant side-effects as well)...But since our CAV switched-over to prescribing us solely the Deslorelin implants, every single bird we've given them to has stopped producing follicles completely. And the Deslorelin implants (sometimes called "seeds") are just that, tiny little "seed-like" implants that are injected using a small-gauge, special syringe right under the skin, either on the back or on the breast, and it's no more invasive than giving them any other injection.

With Lupron and any of the other "Depot" hormone treatments, you have to give them a dosage that is usually somewhere between 400mg and up to 1000mg, and usually this is given to them by injection once every month. And you have to play around with the dosage until you find one that will stop the production of follicles/eggs, which means that you start out with the smallest dose, wait for a month, give them another injection of the same dose (if they didn't lay any eggs or produce any follicles during that first month), and then wait until they do lay eggs again, then up the dose, etc. It's a pain in the butt, and often times even at the highest "safe" dose of Lupron, which still carries a lot of nasty side-effects, it still doesn't stop the production of eggs, or it may work for a month or two and then the bird lays more eggs, you up the dose or give injections more frequently than once a month, all of which carry pretty serious risks. Lupron Depot also carries a very high rate of ovarian cancers directly resulting from it's use, simply because of how high a dose you have to give them for it to be effective, and the fact that you have to give this very high dose to them once every month or every 3 months...

With the Deslorelin implants, usually we use a 4.7mg implant and it lasts for 3 months. You can opt for the 9.5mg implant, which can work up to 6 months, but our CAV doesn't recommend using the longer-acting implants because often times the efficacy wears-off earlier anyway, which he thinks is due to the degradation of the implants...But with just the 4.7mg implants we've seen 100% cessation of egg-laying in every bird we've given them to, with absolutely no side-effects at all except for some localized swelling around the site of the implant, but that's rare and doesn't usually cause any problems anyway. And usually they actually start working within 2-3 weeks of implantation, and you can see a great difference in ovarian activity after 2 weeks of getting the implant in their blood hormone-levels...And as far as them getting the implants, it's seriously not a big deal at all. The larger the bird, the less of a deal it is. They are all subcutaneous, meaning they are put right under the skin (the do not have to be put into the muscle, like some other hormone implants have to be). Some vets put them under the skin on their backs, between their "shoulder-blades", while others put them under the skin on their breasts. Our CAV doesn't use any anesthesia or even Isoflurene Gas when he's injecting the implants, however some vets prefer to use either Isoflurene Gas or another short-acting sedation...In a larger bird like Kiki it is much easier and more like just giving them a "shot". Our CAV will have someone else (me, lol) towel the bird and hold them with their breast exposed, and they will give the bird a small injection of Lidocaine to completely numb their breast tissue, which doesn't hurt them at all. Then he either uses a scalpel to make a very small "stab" incision right under the skin, OR with the larger birds he uses a special syringe that actually makes a small "hole" under the skin. Then he injects the implant into the incision/hole, right under the skin with a normal syringe that has a special type of dull needle that just injects the tiny little implant into the hole. Then he puts a dab of skin-glue over the incision area, and their skin heals right over the implant in a matter of days. The entire process takes less than 5 minutes, and the larger birds do great without any sedation; even the medium-sized birds like Sun/Jenday/Nanday Conures, Senegals, smaller Amazons, Pionus, etc. do just fine with no sedation at all and just a Lidocaine injection...You will notice quite a difference in the birds behavior in about 2-3 weeks, with egg production ceasing completely after the injection of the implant...And then you have it done once every 3-6 months, depending on what dose of implant you choose to use, but the interesting thing is that he doesn't always have to remove the old implant, sometimes it is completely absorbed by the body, sometimes it's still there and he'll remove it when putting in the next injection. But it goes very smoothly and works wonders...We've also used the Deslorelin implant a couple of times to treat birds with certain reproductive cancers, and it's helped quite a bit...
 
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Alex_Kiki

New member
Nov 27, 2016
39
1
The Netherlands
Parrots
Kiki, a sulphur crested cockatoo (eleonora).
Kiki was born in January 1995 and She's with us Since she was 4 months old.
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #12
Awesome!!! I totally agree 100% with going with that diagnosis based on her reproductive history...And yes, if the liquid in her belly was NOT clear, but rather red, brown, or green, then it's not being collected due to a heart or kidney issue, but rather due to infection for sure. I've drained many a belly of birds, reptiles, and dogs due to either cardiac or kidney issues, and it's always clear or opaque-yellow. If the fluid contain specific-bacteria, then based on her reproductive history you guys made the right call...And that would also make it easy for your CAV to prescribe the correct antibiotic therapy as well...

So even though this is very, very scary, as Peritonitis always is in anyone, it's been caught early and the correct treatment started early, and it's something that once it's gone, it's gone for good and not a worry any longer, as opposed to a heart or kidney issue, so it's definitely the lessor of two-evils in this situation. And I have to say that I'm very, very happy that she is eating on her own, that's such a positive sign!!! Usually with Peritonitis they are so sick and feel so absolutely miserable that they can't even be syringe fed, they have to be tube-fed because they just want nothing to do with food at all...So the fact that she's eating on her own at all, even if it's just a little bit, is amazingly awesome!!! This is a great Christmas present!!!

***In-regard to t

Thanks Ellen! She's (very) slightly improving and we're so happy with that. It's the best Xmas present I could wish!

When she's recovered, I'll definitely will discuss the implants with the CAV. Thanks for your info.

Merry Xmas to you and your loved ones!

Alex
 

ChristaNL

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May 23, 2018
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NL= the Netherlands, Europe
Parrots
Sunny a female B&G macaw;
Japie (m) & Appie (f), both are congo african grey;
All are rescues- had to leave their previous homes for 'reasons', are still in contact with them :)
Not sure if you are talking about Diergeneeskunde in Utrecht as the one place, but there is a second CAV currently setting up several bird-hospitals in NL.

You can find Rob van Zon and his established practice in De Meern.
(He wants to branch out across the country. Unsure how fast- I haven't met him yet, just word of mouth in the parrotcommunity here.)

He is relatively new, so you will not find him on many "approved CAV's in NL lists" yet.
Sometimes the web is really slow to catch on.
He has been really well trained (I forget by whom, but one of the Big Birdy Ones) and will not bankrupt you.

LOL, no, I do not have any shares or being paid by him.
Just wanted you to know there are more options if you missed this one.




Best wishes for your belly-achie one.
 

ChristaNL

Banned
Banned
May 23, 2018
3,559
157
NL= the Netherlands, Europe
Parrots
Sunny a female B&G macaw;
Japie (m) & Appie (f), both are congo african grey;
All are rescues- had to leave their previous homes for 'reasons', are still in contact with them :)
Ellen: Thank you for that!
It seems really strange to me the same dose of hormones it put into small birds as well as the large ones --somehow this strikes me as being either overkill for the smaller ones or not enough for the heavy birds (most meds are precribed as dosage per grams / kilograms bodyweight, so what is going on here?).

But desperate times and desparate measures right?

Glad to hear about the Deslorelin.
I only knew about the older ones and the horrors that came with them- that is why the CAVs here will only prescribe them as an absolute last option.
(More of a Hail Mary than real medicine.)
 
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Alex_Kiki

New member
Nov 27, 2016
39
1
The Netherlands
Parrots
Kiki, a sulphur crested cockatoo (eleonora).
Kiki was born in January 1995 and She's with us Since she was 4 months old.
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #15
Not sure if you are talking about Diergeneeskunde in Utrecht as the one place, but there is a second CAV currently setting up several bird-hospitals in NL.

You can find Rob van Zon and his established practice in De Meern.
(He wants to branch out across the country. Unsure how fast- I haven't met him yet, just word of mouth in the parrotcommunity here.)

He is relatively new, so you will not find him on many "approved CAV's in NL lists" yet.
Sometimes the web is really slow to catch on.
He has been really well trained (I forget by whom, but one of the Big Birdy Ones) and will not bankrupt you.

LOL, no, I do not have any shares or being paid by him.
Just wanted you to know there are more options if you missed this one.




Best wishes for your belly-achie one.

Thanks Christa!

Yes, I meant Utrecht. But Rob is also on holiday the next 2 weeks. He has a facebook group where people can ask free advice. Of course only for non-emergencies because he can't guarantee the speed of answering the questions.

Kiki is treated in Amsterdam, the place where Rob used to work. I have a lot of confidence in their abilities as well.

Thanks again & I'll keep you updated on Kiki's progress.

Merry Xmas!

Alex
 

ChristaNL

Banned
Banned
May 23, 2018
3,559
157
NL= the Netherlands, Europe
Parrots
Sunny a female B&G macaw;
Japie (m) & Appie (f), both are congo african grey;
All are rescues- had to leave their previous homes for 'reasons', are still in contact with them :)
Ugh, they told me he would not do that ;P
Awel for emergencies Utrecht is always open ;)
Glad you are in the loop (I am not on facebook ) - you are a great parront.
 
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Alex_Kiki

New member
Nov 27, 2016
39
1
The Netherlands
Parrots
Kiki, a sulphur crested cockatoo (eleonora).
Kiki was born in January 1995 and She's with us Since she was 4 months old.
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #17
Kiki is doing a lot better now.

Today is the first day without difficulties in breathing! :white1:
 

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Laurasea

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Such great news!!!!!! Yippie!!! Beautiful girl beautiful happy holidays pictures!
 

Scott

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Aug 21, 2010
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San Diego, California USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy
Parrots
Goffins: Gabby, Abby, Squeaky, Peanut, Popcorn / Citron: Alice / Eclectus: Angel /Timneh Grey: ET / Blue Fronted Amazon: Gonzo /

RIP Gandalf and Big Bird, you are missed.
Wonderful news, beautiful images. I hope Kiki continues improvement and you find a way to mitigate excessive egg production in 2019!
 
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Alex_Kiki

New member
Nov 27, 2016
39
1
The Netherlands
Parrots
Kiki, a sulphur crested cockatoo (eleonora).
Kiki was born in January 1995 and She's with us Since she was 4 months old.
  • Thread Starter
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  • #20
Today we got the worst news we could get.

Last Monday Kiki and I went to the cav to get the anti-hormone injection again. The liquid in her belly was gone and Kiki felt a lot better.

But the cav felt a lump in her belly. So we made an appointment with the specialists in Utrecht for this morning.

It turns out that Kiki has a tumor, with a lot of blood-veins through it, so difficult to operate.

Also, Kiki has lost a lot of weight. She used to be 523 grams, with the liquid it was 530 grams.
Now she's only 408 grams. I believe she wouldn't survive the operation anyway.

According to the specialist it's a matter of days/weeks rather than months if we do nothing.

When we returned, Kiki refused to eat. In the afternoon she sat on the bottom of the cage and I took her on my lap. Right now she is on the perch in front of the window, and she ate a tiny little bit.

We were hoping for the egg issue but got a tumor...

We decided not to operate and make her comfortable for the time she has got. If she gets really bad, we can see a local vet to let her sleep forever. But I think she now just wants to sit with the people she loves and who love her.

We're devastated.
 

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