Interesting read from a pro-Clip Vet

itzjbean

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Good read!

I'm an advocate for clipping in the right circumstances. IE - if you get a new bird (whether baby or adult) and you need to train without fear of them flying away from you. Or a bird that is dive-bombing and attacking other members of the family OR other birds -- yes that warrants a wing clip for sure! Or if you are - as mentioned in teh article - letting birds roam unsupervised, they need a clip to keep them out of mischief, from escaping out doors and windows and to keep them from flying where they shouldn't.

The best part about it is, they grow back!!! Ember came to me clipped already and it was perfect for training him because he could not get anywhere without me, his clipped wings could only allow him to coast to the floor. But NOW at 9 months old his wings are fully grown out, he is fully flighted with no adverse affects from his initial wing clip. He has learned to fly beautifully. Now I can trust him to come when called and go back into the cage when I need him to.
 

ChristaNL

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Sunny a female B&G macaw;
Japie (m) & Appie (f), both are congo african grey;
All are rescues- had to leave their previous homes for 'reasons', are still in contact with them :)
Love the fact that he does a lot of imping. :)
I can't wait till this is a commonplace procedure (again).
(Sunny would probably really be helped with more suport for the new forming feathers)



I still do not believe that disabling the fly-away-option will make for a tamer /better trainable bird. (The famous freeze/flight/fight being the options they start out with being confronted with something potentially dangerous to them) No animal frozen in fear will have a positive or succesfull trainingsession. I do realize being forced "to face your fears" might have positive results, but I am convinced there are also a lot of cases where the absolute opposite happened.
(fight: My bird is soooo agressive, and bites me...)


To me it is almost as absolete as "sacking" a horse to desensitize it.
(Tie it down so the terrified animal cannot escape, and then touch/hit/etc. it with empty bags all over its body till he stops fighting alltogether -> then it is "tamed")
 

RavensGryf

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Ooh the heated topic of debate Bill :D.

I believe there isn’t a “one size fits all” answer to whether clipping is detrimental or not; either physically or psychologically. Depends on many factors, but I think the parrots’ individual personality, and how easy going they tend to be or not has a lot to do with how well they take to it.

My Red Bellied Parrot was clipped when I got him at 3 months old. I doubt he was ever properly fledged. While I have (and have had) flighted birds over the years, I kept Robin clipped. Looking back, I don’t really know why. He was used to it, didn’t know how to fly, and never really tried. A couple times I let them grow out. Nowdays he has full wings since I was lazy with the clip and I just let it go. I figured why not, but he doesn’t know any difference.

Some say it’s cruel and/or unhealthy to take away the gift of flight... maybe for some birds it is. Robin, my most precious bird, is currently a healthy 24 years old regardless of being clipped most of his life and never has known flight.
 

clark_conure

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There is a middle ground...it was kind of mentioned in the article. You don't take away all the birds ability to fly, it should be able to jump scare to about 18 inches up and then drift under control to the floor.

I hate to say it because it is like the third rail of politics here on the site is this topic, but when you look at the bereavement page there are so many more stories of flighted birds.

I GET the fact you are taking away a birds birthright...I really do! I mean it! But if you are keeping a parrot in a house/apt with human made contraptions like doors and ceiling fans and, kids and other pets and.... etc. Then you MAY have to introduce constraints to help them survive in said environment.

I like my birds to be able to make a flight, like I said, from a scare to something of the same level a few feet away, or a scare/force jump from a table up to me, but not sustained flight or ever really achieving any altitude after the initial leap.

After the leap or fall the bird should be able to flap down like they are wearing three parachutes. Clipping is a science. Not to much, not to little. Its pain for both of you if you do half measures.

Just my opinion.
 

ChristaNL

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May 23, 2018
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Sunny a female B&G macaw;
Japie (m) & Appie (f), both are congo african grey;
All are rescues- had to leave their previous homes for 'reasons', are still in contact with them :)
He... we also keep dogs on leashes to prevent them getting killed in trafic and all kinds of "unnatural" ways to keep them alive and well.

But no-one will ever be able to claim that an animal being restrained in any way from leaving is the same as an animal that chooses to be in a situation...
fair is fair

So yes- if you need to do something to keep an animal from hurting itself that is usually a good thing (as long as it is temporary)-- but....most of the wingclipstories everywhere are not about saving the parrot/keeping it safe, it is about saving people the bother of keeping the parrot safe or to learn about said parrot and how to deal with it in a non-controlling way.

Spending thousands of dollars on a bird and not bother to put a screen on the window... is negligence, not a reason "the bird should be clipped".
Children are more complicated...they are young and will forget-- but clipping a bird will not stop it from curiously waddle outside and getting killed by the neighbours cat (or get stuck in the casually slammed door) it only makes it maybe a bit less likely.

The berievement section (indeed) has both its share of unfortunate accidents, but also (not pointing fingers! I had some lucky escapes- slipped up as well!) some that would have been totally preventable and the owners knew about the risks.
(You only have to look the wong way for a few seconds.. clipped or not)


I am all for keeping your bird alive, but that also means letting them live a life worth living as much as possible.
So if clipping lets them go with you everywhere instead of being fully flighted and stuck at home... I get it! By all means clip them!

But do not cut their flighttime because 'they are so ^%$%$#@$# inconvenient to handle otherwise' --- and especially not to "guaranteed tame them faster".
Anyone can stop a bird from leaving, but we want them to want to come to us/ stay with us.
 
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clark_conure

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A crossover Quaker Scuti (F), A Sun conure named AC, A Cinnamon Green Cheek conure Kent, and 6 budgies, Scuti Jr. (f), yellow (m), clark Jr. (m), Dot (f), Zebra(f), Machine (m).
I agree and clark goes with me everywhere and soon zod too. Zod's already met the local merchants.

Me and Clark even planted a bush outside together, whenever I go outside for walk we check it out.

I'm a centrist, I'm in the middle. A bird should be able to evade but not risk themselves by gaining altitude.

I'm in absolute awe of those that post videos of outside free flight...I also hear/read the bad stories.

I recognize it is their birthright. It really is, thats why I let them fly, to a point, and mostly downwards.

Like I said this is the third rail..I don't even know why I posted again other than to meh forget it....OWNERS, do what you feel is best....thats all I'm saying.
 

itzjbean

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Spending thousands of dollars on a bird and not bother to put a screen on the window... is negligence, not a reason "the bird should be clipped".

But you have to remember not all of us own macaws or birds that are thousands of dollars. Most of us have birds that range around $25-$200, so when you think of it that way, I can see how people can be negligent about this aspect of ownership. There are far many more cockatiels lost in the world than macaws.

I do feel that the effects of a wing clip on a cockatiel are different from a macaw who is bigger, bigger brain, bigger hormones, bigger feelings hurt, etc.
 

itzjbean

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I agree and clark goes with me everywhere and soon zod too. Zod's already met the local merchants.

Me and Clark even planted a bush outside together, whenever I go outside for walk we check it out.

I'm a centrist, I'm in the middle. A bird should be able to evade but not risk themselves by gaining altitude.

I'm in absolute awe of those that post videos of outside free flight...I also hear/read the bad stories.

I recognize it is their birthright. It really is, thats why I let them fly, to a point, and mostly downwards.

Like I said this is the third rail..I don't even know why I posted again other than to meh forget it....OWNERS, do what you feel is best....thats all I'm saying.


There is another can of worms that is opened when discussing clipped birds.... bringing them outside!!

Now that is something that makes me cringe, seeing a bird unharnessed, untrained and outside. Even clipped they can still fly. Ember flew clear across the living room about two months after his clip was starting to grow out, and all it takes is one breeze, one scare, one open wing and that clipped bird can be as good as gone. Even clipped I would never risk taking Ember outside, he would be gone so fast! Anything can happen.
 
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FlyBirdiesFly

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This is my favorite article on the wing clipping debate, and it pretty much sums up my opinions on this topic:

https://theparrotuniversity.com/flight

It’s not safe to take a clipped bird outside without a harness. If you want to take your bird everywhere with you, then you have to harness train them! Yes, harness training takes a lot of time and effort, but it’s lazy to instead rely on clipping for this purpose - you could easily lose your bird under the right conditions. With a bird that is lightly clipped and still has some flying ability indoors, imagine how far they can go when a gust of wind carries them away. The “lost & found” section is filled with horror stories of how people took their birds outside because they thought they couldn’t fly, but they were wrong!

As bird owners, it’s our responsibility to keep our birds safe. I can understand that there are some risks with keeping flighted birds, but it’s our job to do what it takes to keep them out of danger. Unfortunately, sometimes accidents will still happen despite our best efforts. Clipping should be the absolute last resort when you’re sure that all other factors are out of your control and there are legitimate safety concerns. For example, if your kids/family members are leaving the door open and won’t listen to your explanation, then clipping may be your only option.
 
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ChristaNL

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Sunny a female B&G macaw;
Japie (m) & Appie (f), both are congo african grey;
All are rescues- had to leave their previous homes for 'reasons', are still in contact with them :)
But you have to remember not all of us own macaws or birds that are thousands of dollars. Most of us have birds that range around $25-$200, so when you think of it that way, I can see how people can be negligent about this aspect of ownership. There are far many more cockatiels lost in the world than macaws.

Its not the cost of the bird - its about putting your needs and wants before those of the bird (or any other animal). ;)


My macaw was a "plze take care of this bird" bird - I could not afford to pay thousands of dollars ;)
But she gets all the care any of my other parrots did and I would be just as vigilant if she was "just" a budgy or a tiel.
(Dont get me started- I just got offered an entire nest of the latter, "hey...you want babies...take m all!" The guy has 8 pairs who are broody...)
 
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clark_conure

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A crossover Quaker Scuti (F), A Sun conure named AC, A Cinnamon Green Cheek conure Kent, and 6 budgies, Scuti Jr. (f), yellow (m), clark Jr. (m), Dot (f), Zebra(f), Machine (m).
Sigh...there are many types of leashes, one of them is a mental leash it's what the free fliers use. I can't walk 10 ft away without contact calls from both birds.

Also I don't think you get the concept of reduced capacity, (yes I can be an ass) it's not like i'd go outside with clark in gale force winds or a tornado...even if some perfect wind hit and he was able to sail say 100ft or 200ft lets say 300 ft an entire football field. I live on third of an acre and there are few trees or predators around, I can literally, not virtually, outrun him when he's flying due to diminished capacity. It takes more effort for him to stay aloft than he can manage over a duration without effective wings giving him proper lift. Not that he wouldn't turn back anyways, he see's me as shelter.

About 90% of the time he has a jump scare because some tv show does something scary he (1) turns back mid air to me (2) either way I catch him in mid air like a pop fly. The other times he lands and I look at him and say, "what are you doing"...

I actually had a ban warning one time because there was this picture in NYC of all these sun conures hanging out on a stand like on the curb of a street with taxis going by and cars like literally 2 feet away, and I was like wtf that is crazy silly NYC!!! and I was told not to judge NYC people. I live in the outer outer suburbs and there are no real predators around. It's as I said, Owners judge YOUR surroundings and make the best choice for you and your parrot you love more than anything.

If I lived downtown I would always have a leash due to imminent danger. For my situation and all my risk assessments there is more danger inside the home than outside.

Anyways, owners tend toknow what is best in their environment.
 
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Flboy

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Our vet calls unclipped birds, ‘shredded tweet’! But our lost, killed, Tango, would most likely still be alive, had she not been clipped!
 

Laurasea

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Aug 2, 2018
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Love the fact that he does a lot of imping. :)
I can't wait till this is a commonplace procedure (again).
(Sunny would probably really be helped with more suport for the new forming feathers)



I still do not believe that disabling the fly-away-option will make for a tamer /better trainable bird. (The famous freeze/flight/fight being the options they start out with being confronted with something potentially dangerous to them) No animal frozen in fear will have a positive or succesfull trainingsession. I do realize being forced "to face your fears" might have positive results, but I am convinced there are also a lot of cases where the absolute opposite happened.
(fight: My bird is soooo agressive, and bites me...)


To me it is almost as absolete as "sacking" a horse to desensitize it.
(Tie it down so the terrified animal cannot escape, and then touch/hit/etc. it with empty bags all over its body till he stops fighting alltogether -> then it is "tamed")
My neighbor raised horses , abd did this in the 70s I witnessed it, the horses spirit was broken after that, it was terrified, it was terrible and the horse was not the same....he was mad at the horse when he started, these where American Saddle Bred horses he bred, and this colt was high strung and flighty and he was frustrated....I wish I had been old enough to call animal cruelty...
I'm pro flight all the way, grounding your parrot doesn't fix your problems, maybe it makes it easier for you..I woul never put hobbles on human children to make them easier to deal with, so I won't hobble a parrot either via wing clipping
 

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