got Lincoln's bloodwork back

Owlet

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So I got the blood panels back for Lincoln and the vet did a lot of research for eclectus specifically before calling me hence why it took so long, but for the most part he is okay. Calcium is low which is a thing I've been struggling with for awhile with him. However she did note that his monocyte white blood cells were extremely elevated which she mentioned appears to be relatively common among eclectus with feather issues. She said a lot of fancy science words that I cant really remember but at this point she's doing more research and reaching out to other people on the avian board on information and other labs we could do for him and is gonna call me back monday/Tuesday. It doesn't look like there's anything contagious though. I'm debating if I should hold off on opening the shop until we can do the additional panels or just go ahead and open up. At this point if I do need to do the lab which sounds like it's going to be expensive, I'm going to need the money and I have no form of income right now.

I'm at a loss to do right now. I'm making some eggs to hopefully help with the calcium a bit but I guess I can only wait to see what the vet contacts me with. I'll do anything for this bird but I don't have a lot of money right now...
 
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GaleriaGila

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Wow.
Well, I'm very low on advice/information but way high on love and support.
Keep us posted!
 

noodles123

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I am sorry you are dealing with all of this stress.

I personally would wait until you at least had an ABV, PDD and PBFD test done. Those are the most contagious diseases that I know of, and feather-dust is one of the many modes of transmission.

If you buy all of your toy parts now and bring them into your home, it will be a problem if Lincoln ends up having any of these viral issues, as everything will be "contaminated".

It sucks because the tests are costly...That having been said, you want to start your business with confidence.

Have you considered writing a children's' book in the meantime? I know it is kind of a pain in the butt process, but as a parrot owner, you probably have the attention to detail needed to create a great submission. Also---if you are really in a pinch, giving plasma is a pretty decent way to cover 100-200 dollar expenses..just saying...
 
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saxguy64

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Ugh! Stressful for you. I truly hope all goes well for Lincoln. He's one of my favorites on the forum. You are amazing with him! My thoughts, for what it's worth, go ahead and open if you're ready as long as you know there's no concern with contamination of your products. More testing shouldn't affect your day to day life, and hopefully you can make a few bucks which could help pay for the tests.

I do understand the lengths you would go to for Lincoln. The night I lost Patches, I was on the way from Maine to Massachusetts to an available emergency CAV which would have cost several thousand dollars. I didn't care. I had to do everything I could for him. My best friend deserved that.

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Owlet

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I cant really find a lot of information on monocyte cells related diseases on parrots specifically, I can only find relating to humans and it varies greatly from a simple infection to cancer. I did find that monocyte isn't necessarily related to PBFD, I read that lymphocytes are seen most in cases of PBFD. I'm really praying it's just a simple infection. I think I'll wait to see what the vet says about additional labs before opening. And as petrified of needles as I am, I'll look into donating plasma.
 

noodles123

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I have donated plasma, and the key is getting your mind off of it. The pain happens 1x. Then you just sit there and wait with your arm still. There is a tiny pinch when the needle is removed, but it's not bad.
I used to do it a lot before I worked with kids because it was an easy way to make some extra money and help people. Now that I am a teacher, I don't do it because I think it temporarily drops your immunity to germs, but before working with kids, it was never an issue for me in terms of sickness....SO, if you live a life that doesn't require you to be constantly covered in various bodily functions, then you should be fine! lol
 
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Owlet

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I joined the parrot first aid Facebook group as I've heard relatively good things about it and I wanted to see if anyone in there knew anything that might be helpful moving forward. Of course I'll take the information with a grain of salt as it can't replace vets, but no harm in trying to learn while I wait for the vet. Anyways, this is the response I got,
"Monocytes: These are the largest WBC’s in avian blood; they are similar to lymphocytes.
They exist in small numbers; the normal range is 0-3%
An increase in the percentage of monocytes (up to 10%) is seen with chronic diseases, such as psittacosis, systemic fungal infections, TB, and massive tissue destruction."

So, I don't think it's psittacosis, as I would probably be experiencing symptoms if that were the case. Not going to rule it out but it sounds relatively... treatable. I read it can either be really easy or difficult. It's just a case by case thing. I also don't think it's that because my dog has regular exposure to the bird living area (not to the birds themselves but could still be in contact with poo) and shows no outward signs of the symptoms I've researched.

A fungal infection is possible, especially since he has those regular skin infections and I don't believe I've had a blood test done since the infections started ~a year ago.

I don't know what TB is so if any of you know, please let me know! I know TB is used for tuberculosis in humans but idk if that's a thing in birds?

Massive tissue distractions, I'm not sure. Would that mean wounds on his skin? Or him mutilating his skin? Right now he only chews off his feather, he doesn't pluck so he's not damaging the skin.

What do you guys think?

also Apollo is showing no signs of anything being wrong other than maybe puberty.
 

EllenD

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I can't comment on Eclectus' specifically, but in-general when you're dealing with an elevated WBC level and then specifically an elevated Monocyte level, AND the bird is a chronic sufferer of a Feather-Destructive Disease such as the bird being aa chronic, continual Plucker, then in my own experience (which is quite a lot considering that over 50% of the parrots surrendered or dumped at the Rescue are Pluckers and/or Self-Mutilators) the very next step is usually taking several different swabs of the external skin (one from each of the major areas of the body) and first doing simple Microscopy (Gram-Staining, followed by other Staining to rule-out other specific Bacteria, Fungi, and other microbes and little buggers), because 9 times out of 10 the bird is currently and probably has been for a long time suffering from a Systemic Fungal Infection, with or without additional Bacterial Infections (though usually when the bird is diagnosed with a long-time Systemic Fungal-Infection and has been a Plucker/Self-Mutilator for quite a long time, most Bacterial Infections that are also found externally are secondary Bacterial Infections that are being caused by the continual Feather-Destructive Disease and not part of the Systemic issue(s))....

****Though I haven't had much experience with many Eclectus' suffering from Feather-Destructive Diseases, I would have to guess that much of the time even the best CAV's and Avian Specialists are going to be thrown a "Red-Herring" due to their extreme Dietary/Nutritional sensitivities, and a lot of the time I would guess that as soon as they see an Eclectus who is a plucker/self-mutilator they automatically ask the owner what their regular, daily diet is, how long they've been eating it, etc. And since unfortunately we know that many Eclectus owners don't even know that their birds have any special dietary needs when they first bring them home, I'd have to bet that the situation is complicated even further when the Vets hear what the Eclectus is being/has been being fed daily (and often when a first-time parrot owner adopts an adult Eclectus that is being "Re-Homed" on places like Craigslist the person who is "Re-Homing" them doesn't know either and has thus been feeding them a horrible, junky all-seed diet, or a fruit-flavored pellet staple like Zupreem Fruit, along with all kinds of other food that an Eclectus shouldn't have, at least not on a daily basis)...So they see an Eclectus that is plucked and is either otherwise completely healthy (throw-in an occasional episode of "toe-tapping" or the like and it gets even worse) or that has been occasionally having some GI-upsets/runny droppings, etc., and they automatically go with the diagnosis of an Eclectus who has been eating an improper daily diet and has suffered from long-time Feather-Destructive Disease as a result...And then they prescribe a complete diet-change, which is done gradually over-time, etc...Even if they run a Fecal Gram-Stain they typically aren't going to see a lot of Yeast, they'd have to send-out a culture to a lab for it to be grown-out, which probably isn't done aa lot in this situation...And I'd bet that when it comes to an Eclectus who is a long-time plucker and who they've confirmed isn't being fed even close to an appropriate diet, they aren't taking many external skin-swabs and sending them out or even looking at them under their own scopes...So I'd have to guess that this isn't caught a lot in Eclectus' who are pluckers UNLESS the bird is also displaying other signs/symptoms of serious illness like chronic vomiting, loose/runny droppings all the time, bright-yellow liquid being passed with the droppings (indicating Kidney and Liver issues), finding placque in the mouth/throat or in a Crop-flush, etc...And in the meantime the topical Yeast (and possibly other strains of Fungi that we don't often take into consideration) is simply allowed to grow and spread and eventually become Systemic...

That would be my guess, as opposed to a Viral Disease such as PBFD, ABV/PDD, etc., simply because, and correct me if I'm wrong since I've been out of the loop for the last couple fo weeks due to my own injuries, but I don't think that Lincoln has been displaying any of the classic signs/symptoms of any of the Viral Diseases, has he??? I mean, has he been displaying any Neurological symptoms? And as far as Psittacosis, the very first symptoms in the beginning-stages are usually Conjunctivitis in both eyes with a lot of discharge (both clear and yellow/green/brown from both eyes), along with Upper-Respiratory Symptoms like coughing, wheezing when breathing, open-mouth breathing, discharge from the nares, etc. So I totally agree that it doesn't at all sound like Psittacosis Chlamydia; I've not ever seen a bird positive for Psittacosis who wasn't actively-sick with at least coughing, wheezing/crackling when breathing, and Conjunctivitis with discharge...

Did they confirm that Lincoln has an external/topical Fungal Infection on his skin/in his Feather-Follicles? If so, then I'd put my money on a bad Systemic Fungal Infection all the way. Not only is it extremely common, but it's also probably the most-commonly misdiagnosed illness in parrots with Feather Destructive Disease...Usually the treatment ends-up being a combination of a long course of the proper Anti-Fungal(s) combined with an Anti-Anxiety medication (Haldol seems to be the most-effective with the least amount of negative side-effects by-far), and after the bird finishes the Anti-Fungal(s) and tests completely negative for any Fungal Infections anywhere (both topically and in their Fecal testing) and their CBC comes back as normal, THEN they start a gradual taper off of the Anti-Anxiety medication, so that not only is the Fungal Infection completely cured so that there will be no more physical reason for the bird to keep plucking itself, but the pschological element of the Feather-Destructive Disease is also eliminated...
 
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Owlet

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Last time I took Lincoln in was for the bacterial infection on the skin, they would pluck a fresh feather and look at the fluids in the shaft, they only saw bacterial, not something fungal. I'm trying to get all my ducks in order than I'm going to email the vet with some more questions and what I've found so far and see what she says. My money is really on the fungal infections too though.

I'm afraid of PBFD because he's been shedding a lot of down lately and I haven't seen many pin feathers to indicate a molt. He's also been having problems with his beak. That's my primary concern. However, since he has blood tests in the past and it showed no elevated monocytes, and the only birds he has been around were those at the store, he would have picked it up from there. Meaning that the store likely has a lot of birds with PBFD now. So I'm hoping it's not that but if it is I will be reporting it to the appropriate people...
 

noodles123

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It could be fungal, for sure. It could also be plucking etc...

That having been said, my advice is to test for PBFD (blood panel-NOT FEATHER) and put your mind at ease (especially since he has been tested for other issues and showed an irregularity on blood-work). Knowing is better than not knowing (both for Lincoln and for other birds). There are other issues that can cause similar symptoms, but until you test for PBFD, you can't rule it out and this is especially important if you are going to be making bird toys. It would be less of an issue otherwise, but it really is something that every bird owner needs to consider if they ever plan to get new birds or come into contact with other people's birds.

I recently had a PBFD scare, so I can relate. My bird was having feather issues and she has always had a fast-growing beak (despite normal levels on her CBC etc). At first I thought maybe her liver was acting up again, but a liver panel indicated that all was well. Then an irregular feather grew in which prompted the vet to suggest testing (which I had requested earlier, but had been told that it would be expensive and unnecessary). When the vet agreed that we needed to test, it freaked me out, as she had never been worried before. My bird was tested and, based on her symptoms at the time,she would have been considered to be "symptomatic" (if her symptoms had been caused by pbfd). We tested and I cried when I got the results--- despite false-negatives in seemingly healthy birds, Noodles was showing signs of something and she still got a negative result, which is reassuring to me.

Since then, she has had no irregular feathers and her feathers have grown in normally. That having been said, it is very important to know whether your bird has this disease, especially if doing anything with other birds. If your bird has it, you need to know (both for your bird, but also for any birds that you or your bird may contact---and for any future birds you may hope to bring into your home). Some birds with PBFD never show neurological problems...some never show feather problems but do have neurological issues, others show no symptoms ever. I am not saying he has it, but I think that waiting for all of the classical symptoms to show is a poor choice, as some birds never show them all.

PBFD is weird because some birds can carry it for a lifetime without showing symptoms (carriers). Other birds can be exposed but then take up to 10 years to test positive or show symptoms (if ever). Then, there are also birds who get exposed and become ill much faster. Unfortunately, at least in the US, many captive parrots have this illness and spread it around (unbeknownst to their owners) and there are numerous strains, which further complicates things. Wild birds can also spread it in some cases.

Birds in pet stores and at the vet can carry and spread the virus (via dust, fecal matter, bodily fluids and mother-egg). Since feather dust is an issue, toys from pet stores or even dust on human clothing can also serve as a mode of transmission (as can boarding facilities, play-dates etc). The virus remains viable in air-ducts etc, so even if a bird never physically touches another, just being in the same room where a PBFD + bird (or PBFD "negative" carrier) spent time can be enough (even years later) due to ventilation systems, carpets, furniture etc.

In young birds who show symptoms, it is particularly aggressive. In older symptomatic birds, it tends to be a more drawn out process and with certain medications etc, their lives can be extended some.

Then there is the issue of false negatives in carriers----Even if someone attempts to test a healthy looking bird (which they rarely do, due to cost), false negatives are fairly common (as the bird must be actively shedding the virus at the time of the test in order to obtain a positive result). Consequently, many supposedly PBFD negative carriers (tested) are actually spreading/carrying PBFD (but most people don't want to test unless symptoms are visible). Then there is the issue of "incubation time"---if an exposed bird is going to develop symptoms, there is a fairly wide window of time when the bird can spread the virus without testing positive (I guess it is kind of like taking a pregnancy test too early, if you get what I mean).

I am not trying to scare you or upset you because, like I said, mine had some issues and it turned out NOT to be PBFD. That having been said, my uncle has a bird who sometimes visits my parents home (even when my bird is not there) which means that all of my bird's dust in their home would have posed a risk to him (even in her absence). Consequently, I needed to know. Furthermore, if Noodles had tested positive, then it would be important for me to know that because any future birds might contract it from my home (with or without her being present).

Since your bird is showing symptoms of SOMETHING, a PBFD test at this point would likely be positive IF PBFD were the cause...So, you don't necessarily have to fret about false negatives when you test a bird who is already having feather issues etc.
 
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Owlet

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I heard back from my vet today and this is what her email said after talking to some colleagues
"She recommends testing for PBFDV (circovirus), Chlamydophila, +/- mycobacteriosis and aspergillus. The aspergillus panels are not the best, but if it is positive, I can trust the result. However, if it is negative, it does not mean he does not have this fungal organism. I am looking into the recommended labs and getting more information and costs for you. I should have a plan for you tomorrow or Wednesday."

I know it's going to be expensive... should I ask about starting with the fungal lab since that seems like the most probable? Or would it be easiest just to do everything at once...
 

noodles123

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If I were you, aspergillosis would be the lowest test on my list, as testing is very difficult and there is no one specific test--it's a combination of scoping, swabs, blood etc (but it isn't like the others on your list where you can get a solid blood panel done and know with some certainty---PBFD has false negatives, but as stated previously, your bird would likely test positive if that was the cause of the issue because he is symtomatic).
Also, if a bird has aspergillosis, it is usually due to some sort of underlying immune issue caused by a disease (as the fungus is all over in our environment and susceptibility is usually found in immune-compromised birds). A few years ago, I asked about testing Noodles for aspergillosis and the vet said that it was a very illusive and inaccurate process..a process of elimination (basically, she said that, in most cases, you can't assume aspergillosis until you have ruled out everything else---due to the problematic nature of available diagnostic options). In other words, run all of the other tests and if all of those are negative and you still can't figure it out then consider aspergillosis.

You want to figure out the root of the "compromise" if that is the case, and the root could be viral or bacterial. It would be very unlikely for a healthy bird to have aspergillosis unless living conditions were filthy for a prolonged period of time (which I assume is unlikely in Lincoln's case). In most cases, a bird gets aspergillosis because it is already sick in some other way (or because some sort of extreme environmental stress or malnutrition is causing suppressed immune function).

The other tests seem very important....I am not saying apsergillosis isn't important (it is), but if your bird does have it, you still need to figure out why. 99.9% of the time, a healthy bird in a healthy environment doesn't get aspergillosis--- and they can't "catch" aspergillosis or spread it to others (just FYI--in case you were concerned about that).
 
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Owlet

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So I'm assuming the first two test for PBFD and psittacosis but what does +/- mycobacteriosis" test for..?


Lincoln i love you but why cant you be healthy ;A;
 

noodles123

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Only the 1st test on the list is for PBFD. The 2nd is for a separate thing--psittacosis (or parrot fever). The 3rd is sometimes called avian TB, but it is looking for bacteria within a certain class that can cause disease in parrots.
 
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Owlet

Owlet

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Heard from the vet, the total price for all the tests she recommends is around 550$ which isn't nearly as bad as I thought itd be but... still a lot. going to talk to my parents about what to do.
 
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Owlet

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Due to the extreme generosity of an individual (I don't know if I can say their name but they know who they are and THANK YOU) I have enough funds to proceed with doing all the necessary tests to determine a cause of what's going on with my Lincoln. several other very generous people have donated and it will be going towards the treatment to get my boy healthy. Any additional funds will either go towards the continued care of my birds or be given back to the community in the form of donations to local avian rescues.

His vet appointment is scheduled for Monday 17th at 8:30 am. It was the absolute earliest I can get unless somehow someone cancels.

I will be doing all of these tests with two different labs as of now as that's what the vet advises in being the most probable causes;

The first lab offers the following:
1) Aspergillus panel (antibody testing): $190
2) Chlamydophila antibody testing: $110
3) Chlamydophila DNA Probe testing: $60
4) PSBFD(circovirus) DNA Probe: $60

The second lab offers the following:
1) Aspergillus DNA pobe ($40)
2) Avian Mycobacteria testing ($40)

The first lab charges $19 for shipping. We are not sure about the second lab as of now but I will have the funds to cover it regardless.

Thank you all SO MUCH for the love and support. We will be getting Lincoln healthy and back at causing chaos in no time.
 

noodles123

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THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!!!!
Sometimes, the world doesn't seem like such a bad place after all :)
I am so happy for you- now at least you will know what it isn't (even if the tests don't tell you exactly what it is).

YAY TEAM PARROT! haha
 

Kiwibird

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I am so sorry to hear Lincoln’s sick. I’m glad that you are able to now get him the full battery of tests he needs and will hopefully get to the bottom of what’s wrong. Truly wonderful to hear the PF community came together to help your baby in his time of need.
 

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Yay!!!! It doesn't happen very often... but sometimes I see things that restore my faith in the goodness of humanity... funny thing is that I see it HERE more often than anywhere else.

Thank you all for being wonderful! :D
 

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