Allowing Pets To Breed - Discussion On Veterinary Article

Loko · Nov 23, 2016

Last night I couldnt sleep so I decided to read through a couple veterinary journals, one of them bringing up an idea I rarely see discussed. The article is linked below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kDaFebUoflcFFpT3dCaUZMaEk/view?usp=drivesdk

The article, written by Dr. Susan Clubb, brings up the idea that since the import ban of wild parrots, aviculture in the US depends on the stock we currently have in the country - therefore it is important that inbreeding is avoided for one and that the genetic pool is large and healthy. With that, she introduces the idea that yes, juvenile parrots, and older parrots make great pets, but when they reach sexual maturity, they naturally want to "leave the nest" and reproduce.. so if this ideaology is so normal in human life (kids leave the parents house during young adult life and then often come back around and settle down) why not allow a mature/adult parrot to breed, after living as a pet, live out his natural desires, and then once past breeding age, adjust back to life as a "pet".
Now this raises the concern I see that many people have that more birds should not be bred, and rescue when possible. While morally this is ideal, the truth is that if we want to keep a healthy genetic pool in the captive stock, aviculturists must diversify their sources, and birds have to be bred. Personally, I dont think everyone should breed and people must be careful not to overproduce to avoid neglect, but it is important to keep the stock healthy for the future generations of aviculturists. For some species, like hyacinths, blue throated macaws, golden conures, blue throated conures, etc this is especially important, as there are far fewer breeding pairs in the country than some other species. Keeping a bird like this solely as a pet and not allowing to breed is lowering the potential amount of chicks produced, and in a species where only limited numbers were imported it is important to produce both for the breeding potential of new birds and therefore the gene pool and also for the survival as a species entirely. What do you guys think of the idea of raising a baby bird, then allowing it to "be a parrot" for its prime years, and then come back to being a pet?
What are your ideas on this?

wrench13 · Nov 23, 2016

Very noble thoughts, but parrots, especially the bigger ones, live to be 40-75 years old, a good portion of those years able to reproduce. I don't think there will many takers out there, who will be willing to let their companions go for 20 or 30 years

I'd guess none.

SailBoat · Nov 23, 2016

Loko said:
Last night I couldnt sleep so I decided to read through a couple veterinary journals, one of them bringing up an idea I rarely see discussed. The article is linked below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kDaFebUoflcFFpT3dCaUZMaEk/view?usp=drivesdk

The article, written by Dr. Susan Clubb, brings up the idea that since the import ban of wild parrots, aviculture in the US depends on the stock we currently have in the country - therefore it is important that inbreeding is avoided for one and that the genetic pool is large and healthy. With that, she introduces the idea that yes, juvenile parrots, and older parrots make great pets, but when they reach sexual maturity, they naturally want to "leave the nest" and reproduce.. so if this ideaology is so normal in human life (kids leave the parents house during young adult life and then often come back around and settle down) why not allow a mature/adult parrot to breed, after living as a pet, live out his natural desires, and then once past breeding age, adjust back to life as a "pet".
Now this raises the concern I see that many people have that more birds should not be bred, and rescue when possible. While morally this is ideal, the truth is that if we want to keep a healthy genetic pool in the captive stock, aviculturists must diversify their sources, and birds have to be bred. Personally, I dont think everyone should breed and people must be careful not to overproduce to avoid neglect, but it is important to keep the stock healthy for the future generations of aviculturists. For some species, like hyacinths, blue throated macaws, golden conures, blue throated conures, etc this is especially important, as there are far fewer breeding pairs in the country than some other species. Keeping a bird like this solely as a pet and not allowing to breed is lowering the potential amount of chicks produced, and in a species where only limited numbers were imported it is important to produce both for the breeding potential of new birds and therefore the gene pool and also for the survival as a species entirely. What do you guys think of the idea of raising a baby bird, then allowing it to "be a parrot" for its prime years, and then come back to being a pet?
What are your ideas on this?

Dr. Clubb's is well respected as part of the Avian World and the Association of Avian Vets. She, as many in the Avicultural World (myself included) are deeply concerned about the Restrictions that are in place in the transport for 'Breeding' proposes on Parrots Classified as Endangered by the USA Government and other Governments around the World. This group includes near all members of the Mid to Large Parrots that are common in the Companion (Pet) Parrot World.

I fully understand your position and see application. But first, If the US Government would simply allow 'safe' transportation of Parrots for Breeding (which is currently Band), the vast majority of the problems would take care of themselves.

Regarding Companion Parrots and the very important period between hatching and Fledging. As you indicate and is found to be true, Parrots can and do reject their Breeders and look to create a Bond with another. I do not believe in nor to I condone the selling of pre-Weaned Parrots. None of the studies or statements by leading Breeders support this dangerous practice. In addition, the 'stated' belief that this practice supports a stronger Bond is just as unsupported.

The Breeding of Companion Parrots began before the total close of Importing Parrots For Sale. At that point, Breeders would mate their Breeding Pairs, allow the Parrots to raise their Babies with the help and support of the Breeder though Weaning and then they would not sell the Parrot until the Parrot had fully Fledged. During this extended period, those Parrots had been Well Socialized and taught to Step-Up. At this point, the Breeders would 'select' who would be allowed to 'Adopt' their Parrots.

This group of Parrots had been highly-prized and sought after. After all, they had been fully 'Tamed' and Loved! When compared too the Import Stock, this all made great sense. Those Parrots Bonded with their new Families and represent those stories of life long, family inside of family Parrots.

I have drifted a bit from the topic of using Companion Parrots as Breeder Stock. In the hands of those few professional Breeders, okay, but there are so few of these truly wonderful people in the Business any more, it just unsupportable.

Points:
We need to support AAV and like groups in their good work to convince the Government that allowing 'safe' transport of Breeder Parrots needs to be allowed.
We need to strongly discourage Breeders and Buyers from the sale/purchase of un-Weaned Parrots. The story that it supports stronger Bonds is false! In addition, the long term Avian Vet costs for these Parrots far out-weights the small savings at the point of purchase!
There are more, but this should get everyone thinking.

Loko · Nov 23, 2016

wrench13 said:
Very noble thoughts, but parrots, especially the bigger ones, live to be 40-75 years old, a good portion of those years able to reproduce. I don't think there will many takers out there, who will be willing to let their companions go for 20 or 30 years

I'd guess none.

Absolutely. I shouldve specified a little bit on this part, as what you said makes total sense and no one would want to get a parrot to then let it go for 20 years, but more in the sense that birds that maybe need to be rehomed or have behavioral issues often do well when put in an aviary type setting with other birds. I think cockatoos and birds that are often found in rescues would do very well with this type of "plan". When they reach sexual maturity and the owners arent able to handle them as they previously were, instead of going to countless other homes, to no avail (because the issue is the birds natural urge to breed, aka sexual frustration), these birds be allowed to do their thing. Then in years once they calm down, not necessarily the same owner, but someone then gets this bird and it goes back to being the sweet pet it once was with a little bit of work. This would help a lot of birds, especially ones often surrendered, as many of their problems just cannot be made up for by humans, they need to carry out what their DNA is telling them to. It would also save a lot of birds, as many large breeders cull birds that are past reproductive age, so I think if practiced both with common sense and some practicality depending on the situation, it would help homeless birds have a new start to life, and give homes to birds that are past that and ready to "settle down".

SailBoat · Nov 23, 2016

Absolutely. I shouldve specified a little bit on this part, as what you said makes total sense and no one would want to get a parrot to then let it go for 20 years, but more in the sense that birds that maybe need to be rehomed or have behavioral issues often do well when put in an aviary type setting with other birds. I think cockatoos and birds that are often found in rescues would do very well with this type of "plan". When they reach sexual maturity and the owners arent able to handle them as they previously were, instead of going to countless other homes, to no avail (because the issue is the birds natural urge to breed, aka sexual frustration), these birds be allowed to do their thing. Then in years once they calm down, not necessarily the same owner, but someone then gets this bird and it goes back to being the sweet pet it once was with a little bit of work. This would help a lot of birds, especially ones often surrendered, as many of their problems just cannot be made up for by humans, they need to carry out what their DNA is telling them to. It would also save a lot of birds, as many large breeders cull birds that are past reproductive age, so I think if practiced both with common sense and some practicality depending on the situation, it would help homeless birds have a new start to life, and give homes to birds that are past that and ready to "settle down".[/QUOTE]

I truly enjoy the depth of your thinking and the size of your heart!

I fully understand the consideration of rehomed Parrots in this 'concept.' In truth, it is the target market for those in the 'business' of turning fast dollars for baby Parrots! Buy the Parrots cheap or better free, push them into Mating and if they do not produce eggs, selling them as Companion Parrots and forget to tell the new owner of the living hell they just wrought upon that Parrot.

In the hands of a True Professional needing to expand the depth of their Parrots, it likely already happens. However, what the True Professional is looking for is a 'known' Parrot from a 'known' fellow Professional half way across the Country!

Loko · Nov 23, 2016

SailBoat said:
Loko said:

Last night I couldnt sleep so I decided to read through a couple veterinary journals, one of them bringing up an idea I rarely see discussed. The article is linked below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kDaFebUoflcFFpT3dCaUZMaEk/view?usp=drivesdk

The article, written by Dr. Susan Clubb, brings up the idea that since the import ban of wild parrots, aviculture in the US depends on the stock we currently have in the country - therefore it is important that inbreeding is avoided for one and that the genetic pool is large and healthy. With that, she introduces the idea that yes, juvenile parrots, and older parrots make great pets, but when they reach sexual maturity, they naturally want to "leave the nest" and reproduce.. so if this ideaology is so normal in human life (kids leave the parents house during young adult life and then often come back around and settle down) why not allow a mature/adult parrot to breed, after living as a pet, live out his natural desires, and then once past breeding age, adjust back to life as a "pet".
Now this raises the concern I see that many people have that more birds should not be bred, and rescue when possible. While morally this is ideal, the truth is that if we want to keep a healthy genetic pool in the captive stock, aviculturists must diversify their sources, and birds have to be bred. Personally, I dont think everyone should breed and people must be careful not to overproduce to avoid neglect, but it is important to keep the stock healthy for the future generations of aviculturists. For some species, like hyacinths, blue throated macaws, golden conures, blue throated conures, etc this is especially important, as there are far fewer breeding pairs in the country than some other species. Keeping a bird like this solely as a pet and not allowing to breed is lowering the potential amount of chicks produced, and in a species where only limited numbers were imported it is important to produce both for the breeding potential of new birds and therefore the gene pool and also for the survival as a species entirely. What do you guys think of the idea of raising a baby bird, then allowing it to "be a parrot" for its prime years, and then come back to being a pet?
What are your ideas on this?

Click to expand...

Dr. Clubb's is well respected as part of the Avian World and the Association of Avian Vets. She, as many in the Avicultural World (myself included) are deeply concerned about the Restrictions that are in place in the transport for 'Breeding' proposes on Parrots Classified as Endangered by the USA Government and other Governments around the World. This group includes near all members of the Mid to Large Parrots that are common in the Companion (Pet) Parrot World.

I fully understand your position and see application. But first, If the US Government would simply allow 'safe' transportation of Parrots for Breeding (which is currently Band), the vast majority of the problems would take care of themselves.

Regarding Companion Parrots and the very important period between hatching and Fledging. As you indicate and is found to be true, Parrots can and do reject their Breeders and look to create a Bond with another. I do not believe in nor to I condone the selling of pre-Weaned Parrots. None of the studies or statements by leading Breeders support this dangerous practice. In addition, the 'stated' believe that this practice supports a stronger Bond is just as unsupported.

The Breeding of Companion Parrots began before the total close of Importing Parrots For Sale. At that point, Breeders would mate their Breeding Pairs, allow the Parrots to raise their Babies with the help and support of the Breeder though Weaning and then they would not sell the Parrot until the Parrot had fully Fledged. During this extended period, those Parrots where Well Socialized and taught to Step-Up. At this point, the Breeders would 'select' who would be allowed to 'Adopt' their Parrots.

This group of Parrots had been highly-prized and sought after. After all, they had been fully 'Tamed' and Loved! When compared too the Import Stock, this all made great sense. Those Parrots Bonded with their new Families and represent those stories of life long, family inside of family Parrots.

I have drifted a bit from the topic of using Companion Parrots as Breeder Stock. In the hands of those few professional Breeders, okay, but there are so few of these truly wonderful people in the Business any more, it just unsupportable.

Points:
We need to support AAV and like groups in their good work to convince the Government that allowing 'safe' transport of Breeder Parrots needs to be allowed.
We need to strongly discourage Breeders and Buyers from the sale/purchase of un-Weaned Parrots. The story that it supports stronger Bonds is false! In addition, the long term Avian Vet costs for these Parrots far out-weights the small savings at the point of purchase!
There are more, but this should get everyone thinking.

Absolutely.. like said if the restrictions werent as they are, this wouldnt even really be an issue. Unfortunately, I dont see it changing soon, though I havent researched much on any legislative efforts to fix this. The ideaology is certainly not exclusive to aviculture as well, and though others may think differently, I dont see "prohibition" in any sense helpful to anything or anyone other than those on the "wrong side" of it (smugglers, traffickers, and the criminal organizations that go along with them).
I also think that its been well established that parrots are highly developed animals, and go through life stages quite similar to those of humans - and like you said the "if you wean the bird it will create a deeper bond" is an outdated one proved otherwise by science. In fact, it can do just the opposite, just like a human would instinctively want to go out and leave its parents in quest of their own family, the same goes for parrots. I agree that there are so many people who are uninformed and should not breed, and I dont advocate anyone to breed unless they know what they are doing and like you said, careful about whos hands the birds are placed in. I guess I meant to say, "if only this were true today", would the practice be much more sensible and done correctly. I think the internet plays a part in this as well, as many people feel like they can "wiki-how" to breed parrots and make quick bucks, with total ignorance for the birds and its effect on the captive population in general. How things progress or digress in this sense will dictate the future of aviculture here.

Loko · Nov 23, 2016

SailBoat said:
Absolutely. I shouldve specified a little bit on this part, as what you said makes total sense and no one would want to get a parrot to then let it go for 20 years, but more in the sense that birds that maybe need to be rehomed or have behavioral issues often do well when put in an aviary type setting with other birds. I think cockatoos and birds that are often found in rescues would do very well with this type of "plan". When they reach sexual maturity and the owners arent able to handle them as they previously were, instead of going to countless other homes, to no avail (because the issue is the birds natural urge to breed, aka sexual frustration), these birds be allowed to do their thing. Then in years once they calm down, not necessarily the same owner, but someone then gets this bird and it goes back to being the sweet pet it once was with a little bit of work. This would help a lot of birds, especially ones often surrendered, as many of their problems just cannot be made up for by humans, they need to carry out what their DNA is telling them to. It would also save a lot of birds, as many large breeders cull birds that are past reproductive age, so I think if practiced both with common sense and some practicality depending on the situation, it would help homeless birds have a new start to life, and give homes to birds that are past that and ready to "settle down".

I truly enjoy the depth of your thinking and the size of your heart!

I fully understand the consideration of rehomed Parrots in this 'concept.' In truth, it is the target market for those in the 'business' of turning fast dollars for baby Parrots! Buy the Parrots cheap or better free, push them into Mating and if they do not produce eggs, selling them as Companion Parrots and forget to tell the new owner of the living hell they just wrought upon that Parrot.

In the hands of a True Professional needing to expand the depth of their Parrots, it likely already happens. However, what the True Professional is looking for is a 'known' Parrot from a 'known' fellow Professional half way across the Country![/QUOTE]

Good point and sad reality. Its something that would be great, IF done correctly more, but unfortunately so many people have other agendas and like you said basically exploit them for a quick buck, rather than doing things responsibly. Things look good on paper easily, the challenge is making them function in practice.

SailBoat · Nov 23, 2016

Absolutely.. like said if the restrictions werent as they are, this wouldnt even really be an issue. Unfortunately, I dont see it changing soon, though I havent researched much on any legislative efforts to fix this. The ideaology is certainly not exclusive to aviculture as well, and though others may think differently, I dont see "prohibition" in any sense helpful to anything or anyone other than those on the "wrong side" of it (smugglers, traffickers, and the criminal organizations that go along with them).
I also think that its been well established that parrots are highly developed animals, and go through life stages quite similar to those of humans - and like you said the "if you wean the bird it will create a deeper bond" is an outdated one proved otherwise by science. In fact, it can do just the opposite, just like a human would instinctively want to go out and leave its parents in quest of their own family, the same goes for parrots. I agree that there are so many people who are uninformed and should not breed, and I dont advocate anyone to breed unless they know what they are doing and like you said, careful about whos hands the birds are placed in. I guess I meant to say, "if only this were true today", would the practice be much more sensible and done correctly. I think the internet plays a part in this as well, as many people feel like they can "wiki-how" to breed parrots and make quick bucks, with total ignorance for the birds and its effect on the captive population in general. How things progress or digress in this sense will dictate the future of aviculture here.[/QUOTE]

Sadly, it is not the underbelly of the Parrot Market that is blocking or better stated advocating restrictions of Trade Parrots, but the Anti-Pet (insert name here) segment that understand that by blocking /restricting trade within the Country that the market will at some point fail due to the restrictions. The AAV has long worked to remove these restrictions to assure that the healthy base remains healthy long into the future.

Today, the New World Parrots of North America represent the DNA base that will be used to reintroduce these Parrots to their Native Ranges! A healthy North America Stock is critical to allowing this to happen!

If you believe in this Work, let you Avian Vet know and when they again take a stand for the health of the North America, New World Parrots you're verbal support will provide substance too their effort.

GaleriaGila · Nov 23, 2016

Fascinating reading. So many practical and ethical and logistical concerns.
I wonder how many parrot owners are spared such considerations due to their bird(s) being entirely mis-imprinted on people, namely me. The Rbird has no interest in birds. From what I know of imprinting, there's no rehabilitating or reversing it.

SailBoat · Nov 23, 2016

GaleriaGila said:
Fascinating reading. So many practical and ethical and logistical concerns.
I wonder how many parrot owners are spared such considerations due to their bird(s) being entirely mis-imprinted on people, namely me. The Rbird has no interest in birds. From what I know of imprinting, there's no rehabilitating or reversing it.

Interesting line of logic.

The group of Birds that imprint are commonly flock based and you are correct, imprinting with that group is very strong with reversal being shall we say near impossible. The near part provided to inspire a glint of hope. This flock group of birds commonly are held together along the lines of there this strength /safety in numbers. These flocks can grow to huge numbers.

With mid to larger Parrots they tend to 'Bond' with their different groups. Male and Female, the first off-springs, which commonly stay around until their second or third year as additional off-spring fill-in. The older off-spring help with the newest young and as a result 'learn' prior to finding a Mate of their own. That family unit tends to nest with other family units, forming a 'small' flock that will work together for protection of the nests and finding areas to forage. This larger group is far more loosely associated and will separate and come together when it serves the individual members.

When the mid to large Parrots are separated from their parents and only experience Humans, they can loss their natural connection for other like Parrots and fail to Mate when the opportunity is provided. It could be said that they have imprinted on Humans, but more likely that they have lost the bond connection with another Parrot. Since, even Parrots that have long lived with Humans can at some point, find a relationship with another Parrot. They had never been taught to be parents. At best, this group represent DNA sources only!

GaleriaGila · Nov 23, 2016

Very helpful, Mr. Boat. Thanks!

Loko · Nov 23, 2016

SailBoat said:
Absolutely.. like said if the restrictions werent as they are, this wouldnt even really be an issue. Unfortunately, I dont see it changing soon, though I havent researched much on any legislative efforts to fix this. The ideaology is certainly not exclusive to aviculture as well, and though others may think differently, I dont see "prohibition" in any sense helpful to anything or anyone other than those on the "wrong side" of it (smugglers, traffickers, and the criminal organizations that go along with them).
I also think that its been well established that parrots are highly developed animals, and go through life stages quite similar to those of humans - and like you said the "if you wean the bird it will create a deeper bond" is an outdated one proved otherwise by science. In fact, it can do just the opposite, just like a human would instinctively want to go out and leave its parents in quest of their own family, the same goes for parrots. I agree that there are so many people who are uninformed and should not breed, and I dont advocate anyone to breed unless they know what they are doing and like you said, careful about whos hands the birds are placed in. I guess I meant to say, "if only this were true today", would the practice be much more sensible and done correctly. I think the internet plays a part in this as well, as many people feel like they can "wiki-how" to breed parrots and make quick bucks, with total ignorance for the birds and its effect on the captive population in general. How things progress or digress in this sense will dictate the future of aviculture here.

Sadly, it is not the underbelly of the Parrot Market that is blocking or better stated advocating restrictions of Trade Parrots, but the Anti-Pet (insert name here) segment that understand that by blocking /restricting trade within the Country that the market will at some point fail due to the restrictions. The AAV has long worked to remove these restrictions to assure that the healthy base remains healthy long into the future.

Today, the New World Parrots of North America represent the DNA base that will be used to reintroduce these Parrots to their Native Ranges! A healthy North America Stock is critical to allowing this to happen!

If you believe in this Work, let you Avian Vet know and when they again take a stand for the health of the North America, New World Parrots you're verbal support will provide substance too their effort.[/QUOTE]

I see what you mean, and I agree completely. Its not the black market that pushes for restriction in this sense, its the anti-pet "groups", but I would imagine smuggling is a result of it, not the cause or pressuring body. Whether or not its a major issue with birds I cant say but when I lived in NYC I knew quite a few people who went to, lets say "risky" lengths to get a species not easily obtained (mostly reptiles, but they have genes too obviously) to keep their bloodlines going.Though it might not be much, if the legislators would just take a practical look into these issues, for one, all of what we discussed would be great, and to stay on this point, profits from legally imported birds could go to helping their conservation and breeding efforts for re-implementation, rather than disappearing, and the new birds and fresh genes can be kind of tracked by the professional breeders to ensure healthy diverse stocks.
I imagine its kind of like the game reserve practice: in order for the elephants or whatever species to be saved, they must allow some legal hunting (at high prices) and the proceeds go to stopping the illegal trade. People are quick to yell stop the hunting, but studies have shown that without the reserves and the revenue they produce, the species there would be at much higher risk. Im just speculating though.
Next time I go to the vet or if I can speak to him Ill ask about this and see what he has to say. Dr Clubb is only about 2 hours from me also so if she ever does some kind of presentation I would kove to go hear it and have a chance to speak with her.

Allowing Pets To Breed - Discussion On Veterinary Article

Loko

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wrench13

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SailBoat

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Loko

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GaleriaGila

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Loko

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Censoring yourself around the parrot

In need of just few tips

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