Better to buy 1 year old parrots vs just fledged one?

I recently read an article (https://www.papageienpark-bochum.de...ne-jugend-haende-weg-von-zu-jungen-papageien/) it is in german, but you can use google translate to get the gist of it.

Essentially what is argued: Don't buy baby parrots (aka recently weaned/fledged), instead buy parrots that are about 10months old (or a bit older) as the social behaviour is not learned when they are young.


Opinions on this claim?

I suppose I in some ways see the logic, but am not sure, mainly because any scientific evidence is not mentioned.

haven't read the article, but the case it's making from the sounds of it is to get a bird that somebody else has trained and to not bother doing it yourself. What you normally find if someone is selling a 10 month old bird it's almost certainly going to not be trained properly and will be a biter/screamer so then you have to train them how to behave properly. Then you will still get puberty issues happen when they get their hormones

really I feel it would be best to get either a bird past their puberty or to get a baby ou teach from scratch

LordTriggs said:

haven't read the article, but the case it's making from the sounds of it is to get a bird that somebody else has trained and to not bother doing it yourself. What you normally find if someone is selling a 10 month old bird it's almost certainly going to not be trained properly and will be a biter/screamer so then you have to train them how to behave properly. Then you will still get puberty issues happen when they get their hormones

really I feel it would be best to get either a bird past their puberty or to get a baby ou teach from scratch

Click to expand...

Honesty, I feel the same way. The article is written by a parrot park in Germany that sell parrots.

I just wanted to get others' opinions on it as well!

I didn't read the article but I disagree. I got my baby, Ember as a weaned 4 month old and it has been pure joy! Since he was so young when I got him he has been very easy to train and has not once tried to bite me in aggression or fear. He's my best buddy. He has learned to whistle and sing from my other bird who is a mature male who he's also learned to tolerate.

There will always be differences in how a bird is raised that greatly influences how it will act when it goes to a new owner. It does depend on your lifestyle, if you have other birds, but in my opinion i's easier to shape a younger bird to your lifestyle, expectations with training and socialization when they're young enough so you can be there from the beginning to correct unacceptable behavior.

itzjbean said:

I didn't read the article but I disagree. I got my baby, Ember as a weaned 4 month old and it has been pure joy! Since he was so young when I got him he has been very easy to train and has not once tried to bite me in aggression or fear. He's my best buddy. He has learned to whistle and sing from my other bird who is a mature male who he's also learned to tolerate.

There will always be differences in how a bird is raised that greatly influences how it will act when it goes to a new owner. It does depend on your lifestyle, if you have other birds, but in my opinion i's easier to shape a younger bird to your lifestyle, expectations with training and socialization when they're young enough so you can be there from the beginning to correct unacceptable behavior.

Click to expand...

It's so great to hear others' opinions that are the same as mine.

I got Sammy when he was 4 months old. He was hand-fed due to his parents being abusive to the earlier clutches. He grew up with his sister (who is 2 days younger than him).

I suppose that socialisation to other birds probably is very important when looking for a parrot for breeding, but I personally would not buy any pet without being able to have it in it's sensitive stage (essentially the time when animals are more curious than afraid of new things).

I do however want to hear others' opinions as well, as I may be incorrect. I only want what's best for the parrots.

Since robbing the nests is illegal now - in Europe anyway- because of all the proven longtime psycological damage it does to the birds, it makes sense to let them grow up as a balanced parrot before moulding them in human shape.

It the same with horses: the ones that get taken away from mum almost always end up as problem-horses (and eventually sausages) - just let them nurse for the normal 3+ years and grow up in a herd..

you need to *really* work with them anyway, so why not have one that actually behaves like a normal animal?

Both are prey-animals and have a herd/flock mentality- so it is not that hard to teach them to listen/look for the "human" as well.


=


with parrots we should look at species:


a budgie of 4 months of age is something completely different developmentally speaking from a macaw:
one is ready to breed at the end of his/her first year, the other one still wants to be fed by the parrents and won't ready for anything adultlike till 5-10 years of age (instead of months).


So to say "mine was 4 months old and just fine" ...yea sure... in context plze!


-
there has been a thesis going round that his is the reason Timney greys are far less know as pluckers etc. than the African ones.
Timneys are ready to get away from their parents far earlier than the Africans (1y versus 2 y) - so if you seperate them at exactly the same age you have the difference between a 10 year old trying to manage all by himself in a strange world or a 5 year old facing the same challenges ...

Actually the gist of the article is:


let the parrots learn their own (survival)behaviour and bodylanguage by letting them socialize with their own kind till they reach the point they can really fend for themselves.
So let the chicks have their childhood before forcing them in a job as "pet" (or breeding animal).


Of course this is written with breeders as well as poeple who want to own them as a pet in mind. If the breeders start selling normal parrots instead of clueless younglings ti will change things a lot faster.


Why not buy a parrot that is already bitpressuretrained?
Why not get one that will nog fixate on another human as a mate, bite everyone else and gets kicked to the curb for it?
Why not buy a parrot that already knows not to scream excessively?
Why not buy a parrot that has already learned to fly and has developped great muscles, a healthy heart etc.?


I liked the "Ich mag junge Papageien, wirklich. Aber ich werde keinem Papagei jemals die Kindheit nehmen, nur um meine eigenen Bedürfnisse zu befriedigen. "
-> " I like baby-parrots, really. But I would never steal any parrots childhood away just to satisfy my own needs" (for something trusting and cuddly).

ChristaNL said:

Since robbing the nests is illegal now - in Europe anyway- because of all the proven longtime psycological damage it does to the birds, it makes sense to let them grow up as a balanced parrot before moulding them in human shape.

It the same with horses: the ones that get taken away from mum almost always end up as problem-horses (and eventually sausages) - just let them nurse for the normal 3+ years and grow up in a herd..

you need to *really* work with them anyway, so why not have one that actually behaves like a normal animal?

Both are prey-animals and have a herd/flock mentality- so it is not that hard to teach them to listen/look for the "human" as well.


=


with parrots we should look at species:


a budgie of 4 months of age is something completely different developmentally speaking from a macaw:
one is ready to breed at the end of his/her first year, the other one still wants to be fed by the parrents and won't ready for anything adultlike till 5-10 years of age (instead of months).


So to say "mine was 4 months old and just fine" ...yea sure... in context plze!


-
there has been a thesis going round that his is the reason Timney greys are far less know as pluckers etc. than the African ones.
Timneys are ready to get away from their parents far earlier than the Africans (1y versus 2 y) - so if you seperate them at exactly the same age you have the difference between a 10 year old trying to manage all by himself in a strange world or a 5 year old facing the same challenges ...

Click to expand...

The context for my "4 months old" is a Jardines parrot, similar in size to a TAG, so in this context the example does make sense.

I have heard that TAGs are less likely to pluck but I have also heard that the instances of plucking are more or less the same between TAGs and CAGs. Since no studies (that I am aware of, I may be incorrect) have been made we cannot know for sure.

I do feel the need to correct you on (it's the nit-pick inside of me) calling Timnehs "Timney" and Congos "Africans". Both of them are African Greys so only calling one of them African implies that the other one is not African as well, which it is.

Anyhow, I found the article quite interesting but ultimately, he doesnt have any studies or science to back him up (at least cited) so I'm not just going to take his word for it.


It isn't illegal in all of Europe to take the eggs from the nest - in some it is but ONLY for commercial reasons. Sammy, my Jardine (about the same size as TAG) was hand-fed because his parents were very abusive to their earlier clutch.

ChristaNL said:

Actually the gist of the article is:


let the parrots learn their own (survival)behaviour and bodylanguage by letting them socialize with their own kind till they reach the point they can really fend for themselves.
So let the chicks have their childhood before forcing them in a job as "pet" (or breeding animal).


Of course this is written with breeders as well as poeple who want to own them as a pet in mind. If the breeders start selling normal parrots instead of clueless younglings ti will change things a lot faster.


Why not buy a parrot that is already bitpressuretrained?
Why not get one that will nog fixate on another human as a mate, bite everyone else and gets kicked to the curb for it?
Why not buy a parrot that already knows not to scream excessively?
Why not buy a parrot that has already learned to fly and has developped great muscles, a healthy heart etc.?


I liked the "Ich mag junge Papageien, wirklich. Aber ich werde keinem Papagei jemals die Kindheit nehmen, nur um meine eigenen Bedürfnisse zu befriedigen. "
-> " I like baby-parrots, really. But I would never steal any parrots childhood away just to satisfy my own needs" (for something trusting and cuddly).

Click to expand...

I have to say that I personally view it as a huge bonus that you get to mould your pet by having them when they are still in their sensitive period - this is why i prefer dogs to cats.

By this you are able to make their life with your easier Sammy wasnt harness trained until he was 2. It was not impossible but it was very difficult and time consuming. He was quite scared of most things at first, but during the course of a year he got accustomed and now likes walks outside.

My friends baby (5month old) Blue winged macaw was like night and day when it came to harness training. The required time and effort was much less without causing stress to the bird.

to continue the nitpicking...the Congo's don't all originate from the Congo = so why would you want to do that?.

and around here you have an african grey or a timneh (pardon my mistakes in spelling).

(actually the article was written bij a she, but never that mind)

Nestrobbing is only allowed to save the chicks, but is used as an excuse all the time but ruthless salespeople who try to get around the new laws. So pardon me for not believe 50% of al breeder-parrots suddenly turned out to be crappy parents (breeders usually just discard those to the pettrade and only keep productive couples otherwise it cuts into profits).
It's just a salespitch done to death the last couple of years...
( not saying there are *no* exceptions, but most of it is lies )

I can see nerits to both sides. If you take a puppy (nothing like a parrot) away from the litter mates and mom to early they miss out on things like bite pressure, group Dynamics, and confidence. When I was young you got your puppy at six weeks, now it is accepted that 12 weeks is much much better. I think the clues to follow are natural, what age does the parrot species leave the parrents and enter the flock? But I agree harness training and flight recall and other things are best done at fledgling age, also learning to speak comes much more easily at the fledgling age. A breeder who works and spends time with the young ones, and let's them spend time with thier hatch mates would be best. These are long lived species with higher intelligence and would naturally be educated by their parents longer....so my idea would be at the age the parents aren't supplementing their feeding. I would never condone wild caught it egg raiding. But I have read historical accounts that if the Grey's were caught between one and two years of age they went into become great pets, after that age not so much..

ChristaNL said:

to continue the nitpicking...the Congo's don't all originate from the Congo = so why would you want to do that?.

and around here you have an african grey or a timneh (pardon my mistakes in spelling).

(actually the article was written bij a she, but never that mind)

Nestrobbing is only allowed to save the chicks, but is used as an excuse all the time but ruthless salespeople who try to get around the new laws. So pardon me for not believe 50% of al breeder-parrots suddenly turned out to be crappy parents (breeders usually just discard those to the pettrade and only keep productive couples otherwise it cuts into profits).
It's just a salespitch done to death the last couple of years...
( not saying there are *no* exceptions, but most of it is lies )

Click to expand...

In my case, Sammy was hatched prior to making handfeeding for commercial purposes illegal.

The Congo is called the because that is it's name!! Calling it African implies that the Timneh ISNT African! Jardine parrot translates to Kongopapegoja in Swedish ("Kongo parrot") but he isnt from Congo. That is simply the name of the species in the given language.

Just trying to understand what the new law in Europe is regarding bird breeders and "robbing" baby birds from the nest...So this is referring to baby birds who are bred by breeders, and not just wild parrots, correct?

So essentially, in Europe, it's now illegal for a breeder who's breeding-pair lays a clutch to pull the chicks between 2-3 weeks old and hand-raise/hand-feed them? So basically if you're a bird breeder in Europe, you have to allow your chicks to stay in the nest-box and be raised and fed by their parent birds, until the babies are what, fully-weaned or fully-fledged?

However, it would still be legal for a breeder to handle the babies every day, or hand-tame the babies, while still allowing them to live in the nest-box and be fed by the parents? I would assume that this is the case, as how else would you be able to buy a hand-tamed baby bird?

LOL, of course you can handle the young once in a while, but you cannot remove them from their parents care.
Lost of breeders will ignore this (and pretend "it was an emergency" -> their legal loophole) or (do it right) wait till the babies leave the nest and are able to feed themselves if food is present.
Not the same as being fully weaned, because in the wild they will pester their parrents for far longer than most people will believe.
Of course there is less need, because we will fill their foodcups no matter what season it is... so they don't need to hang around and learn survivalskills as well.

(there are no wild parrot populations in Europe )

We do not do "handtamed"- you either have the "nature-brood" (lousy translation, sorry) -> where the parents just get on with it and the babies are not handled by humans (how you breed breeder-birds, parrots who really know how to parrot) and "tame" (parents are used to humans and the babies were handled and therefore more easily adapt to being pets).

The idea is that a young bird that can watch his parents (and siblings) interact, preen, feed etc. will have far less issues with f.e. plucking that stems from overpreening, because it has had an exemple how to do it propperly, will eat lots of different foods because well... parents eat it in front of them and not freak out if something new pops up.
And of course will get its feathery arse kicked for misbehaving like biting too hard



About all the things we struggle to teach our birds (and lots of people fail miserably ..and condemn the bird to the twilightzone: not-a-bird, not a tiny-human either).
This is not meant to tell the real parrotlover they are bad people, it's just that so many birds end up as victims; they are pretty and cuddly and colourful...till they do not live up to expectations anymore...
So why not give them a headstart to being "a good birdy".


Like the person who wrote the article: I also love feeding animals, and it is hard to say no to something helpless, cute and dependend on you--
but this tells me far more about what I like and need than what is good for the other party.
It is not nice to look at myself this way- but is is the truth: I would benefit, the bird would lose.
(and that is not right, no matter how tempting)

Hand-rearing isn't illegal in all of Europe. It is here in Sweden too though, and more and more breeders over here are now starting to take the approach of actually breeding tame, social companion birds instead of unhandleable aviary birds. That way, the birds can stay with their parents, learn everything they need to know about being a bird, and when they're all ready, they can learn straight from their bird parents how to interact with humans and that humans are beneficial and good to hang out with!

All of my current birds except for Donnie the YCA (who's 18 years old - way older than the hand-rearing laws) were parent-raised. Drogon the BFA I'm pretty sure was raised in an aviary with "aviary bird" parents. I adopted him from his previous humans, who had to re-home him, when he was only about 6 months old. He's a very, very sweet, funny little boy who LOVES hanging out with me, getting cuddles, etc. He also really likes hanging out with other birds and especially other Amazons, but at the end of the day usually prefers me Leia the Alexandrine was, to my knowledge, raised in a family setting by companion parrot parents. She's also very, very social with me and would probably like to spend her entire life on my shoulder if she could.

Studies have shown that hand-raised parrots are much more prone to stereotypies and other behavioral issues than parent-raised parrots - and that's absolutely true for my personal hands-on experience too! Most of my hand-raised birds have had plenty of behavioral issues to work out, my only current hand-raised bird Donnie has several stereotypic behaviors that we're working on, and he doesn't really know how to interact with other birds, but he's getting there!
All of my parent-raised birds have always been a lot more well-adapted.

yes, as said above not all countries ban hand-rearing, here for example it is perfectly legal. But even then when something is illegal people seem to be adverse to following the law unless they're being watched

I didn't read the article....BUT, based on the post title,
I would always buy a fully-weaned bird.
Unless someone is practiced/has apprenticed for years dealing with young babies, it is very dangerous...


Weaned babies can be easier to bond with, but then there is the issue of puberty and major personality changes...if used to a baby (or any bird pre-puberty) it can feel like betrayal when the bird becomes sexually mature and suddenly develops new preferences, problematic behavior (biting, egg-laying, territorial/mate protecting, increased vocalizations, new alliances etc). At the same time, older birds often come with behavior problems, but then at least you know roughly what you are getting (and all of that CAN change if it is behavioral and not hormonal). It is a tough call. Both babies and adult birds need someone with a firm understanding of behavior and routines etc, because they can and will work a system...screaming for attention etc etc....Just because you say "NO STOP YOU STUPID BIRD" doesn't mean they aren't hearing ***FUN FUN VOICE, NEW TONES, YAY!"****

I guess with a baby, at least the owner is forced to acknowledge that behavioral issues were due to the way they mis-handled something....
It is really a tough call.
Either way, you need a will of steel, with the patience of a saint...

noodles123 said:

I didn't read the article....BUT, based on the post title,
I would always buy a fully-weaned bird.
Unless someone is practiced/has apprenticed for years dealing with young babies, it is very dangerous...


Weaned babies can be easier to bond with, but then there is the issue of puberty and major personality changes...if used to a baby (or any bird pre-puberty) it can feel like betrayal when the bird becomes sexually mature and suddenly develops new preferences, problematic behavior (biting, egg-laying, territorial/mate protecting, increased vocalizations, new alliances etc). At the same time, older birds often come with behavior problems, but then at least you know roughly what you are getting (and all of that CAN change if it is behavioral and not hormonal). It is a tough call. Both babies and adult birds need someone with a firm understanding of behavior and routines etc, because they can and will work a system...screaming for attention etc etc....Just because you say "NO STOP YOU STUPID BIRD" doesn't mean they aren't hearing ***FUN FUN VOICE, NEW TONES, YAY!"****

I guess with a baby, at least the owner is forced to acknowledge that behavioral issues were due to the way they mis-handled something....
It is really a tough call.
Either way, you need a will of steel, with the patience of a saint...

Click to expand...

The point of the article was to buy a bird that is over 10 months old rather than a recently weaned one (aka 3-4 month old, in CAGs).

Hmmm, they way I was informed the laws were all over Europe, but I could be wrong.
(It has happened before )
Anyway-


like kittens, puppies etc.etc. we are learning there are crucial periods for motherly/ paternal care and socializing within a larger group and adapting to human-environments and interaction.
We are still trying to figure out what is the best period for parrots.
One thing we *have* figured out is that taking them away from their parents at a very young age is not very good for them.

SammyAndy said:

The point of the article was to buy a bird that is over 10 months old rather than a recently weaned one (aka 3-4 month old, in CAGs).

Click to expand...

Yup, but this is not school, we are allowed to drift away and sometimes to take a broader look.


You've already dismissed it because no scientific articles were quoted-- that is because there are not that many solid scientific studies done. (Because parrots are considered rather intelligent most of the behavioural ones would be deemed animal-cruelty and not get funding anyway.)
So we have to make do with emperical stuff and even stories/ personal experience.