Question for non-hybrid owners

Ltygress · Jan 12, 2015

If there was a registry for "purebred" parrots, would you register yours? Kinda like how the AKC keeps track of purebred dogs, would you be interested in something that keeps track of "purebred" macaws?

Mango121913 · Jan 12, 2015

I think that would be great, but not just for Macaws. Should be for all species of parrots.

Ltygress · Jan 12, 2015

That's actually the scope I'm thinking of. I posted on the general parrot forum about the idea, but wanted to do a sort of poll here to see how other macaw owners would feel.

weco · Jan 12, 2015

I'm with Mango, sounds like a very ambitious project, but I'm pretty sure there are blood-line registries already established, though many are within controlled environments like specific breeding facilities and zoos.

Some organizations you might want to contact are:

International Conure Association International Conure Association > Home
Pyrrhura Breeders Association Pyrrhura Breeders Association
The Parrot Society of Australia Parrot Society of Australia - Welcome...
The Society of Parrot Breeders and Exhibitors, Inc. (SPBE) Society of Parrot Breeders and Exhibitors

As to your database concept of existing companion/pet birds, there are a couple of problems I can see off hand, the first being that what guarantee is there that the bird(s) I register are "pure breeds?" What lineage would be used to establish that they were in fact from an undiluted blood line? The other problem I can see is that some, maybe more than some registrants might be concerned about the security of the database and access thereto.....

Ltygress · Jan 13, 2015

I'm actually considering a lot of this, and thinking about how to maneuver through obstacles. The AKC is going to be my "model" for the most part. Someone suggested a band code registry so others couldn't just order bands of the same codes. Each breeder would need their own.

As for initial registry, it would have to coincide with the first "national" show. There, birds would have to be registered in person so we could see and compare traits. I take my scarlet for example. He's clearly a scarlet. But I am thinking he may have a Catalina or another hybrid mix somewhere way back, because he has blue and green on the back of his neck in small patches. It's not enough to be obvious, but it's there.

So no, he probably isn't pure, but he is a "scarlet" macaw. So he would be eligible for registration as a scarlet macaw, and regular confirmation shows would encourage someone to breed those extra colors out.

Registered animals get a certificate. When they breed, broods are registered as a whole by the breeder, using parents' registration information. Individual certificates are issued for each offspring for the NEW owner to register after adoption. That is how the AKC does their registration process. But for parrots, registration would also need to be held at regular "national" shows for several years to allow the entire parrot trade to get on board. One or two "judges" could also be willing to travel to large aviaries (for a fee) to help with their massive registrations.

There's a lot more to think about and work on, but I feel motivated right now. Keep throwing questions and ideas!

Dinosrawr · Jan 13, 2015

I wonder if the desire to have purebred parrots would also encourage wild caught birds that are most reliably pure? It's theoretical and perhaps not really a concern, but I just wonder. And would that encourage breeding just for the sake of show? We own a german shepherd that is from a breeder that did Schutzhund with her dogs and bred them strictly for showing, keeping pure German show lines. We got Kona at the age of 2, and she has terrible hips now 8 years later because she was bred for "perfect" show walking. The breeder also cared little for the dogs other than whether or not they would show well... Kona was going to be kept as a breeder because she has a red coat and is a large female, but her hips didn't "perfectly align" while she walked... so she was simply shipped off and sold after assessment. Not that current parrot breeders are any better, but I just wonder how that would impact the well being of an animal that lives so long...? These are just initial thoughts, I guess trying to be the devil's advocate. I'm not against it, I just figured I'd add my wonderings

Birdman666 · Jan 13, 2015

Honestly, "showing" parrots really doesn't interest me at all...

Ltygress · Jan 13, 2015

Perhaps not, Birdman, but I think you may be able to help me out with some things I don't actually know.

Dinosrawr, that would be a problem, but I thnk dogs may be an extreme because they are so popular in general. Rabbit shows are very different from dog shows, while trying to achieve the same goal. For example, rabbits must have a tattoo because they want judging to be as anonymous as possible. They also DO judge against or disqualify sick or "malformed" animals.

With dogs, the development of his dysplasia didn't stop dog shows, good breeders or bad breeders. But the AKC's registry helped track offspring of those dogs to discover the problem IS genetic, and the OFA (orthopaedic foundation for animals) was founded to help identify those dogs for the good breeders that cared about it.

So while a lot of the responsibility does still rely on breeders, a registry would still help track all of it. There will be bad breeders then, just like there are now. But like with dogs, cats, and rabbits, certain bird descendants would become highly sought-after while others would be avoided a lot. Pedigrees become a huge part of it. Birds who do win shows and are certified healthy by veterinarians are more likely to sell, than those who lose show after show or get a bad rep for health or disease. A registry simply makes it all easier to track. And if X-breeder is producing birds with problems, people will start frowning at X-breeder's birds being on a pedigree, even three or four generations down.

SilverSage · Jan 13, 2015

Ltygress said:
I'm actually considering a lot of this, and thinking about how to maneuver through obstacles. The AKC is going to be my "model" for the most part. Someone suggested a band code registry so others couldn't just order bands of the same codes. Each breeder would need their own.

As for initial registry, it would have to coincide with the first "national" show. There, birds would have to be registered in person so we could see and compare traits. I take my scarlet for example. He's clearly a scarlet. But I am thinking he may have a Catalina or another hybrid mix somewhere way back, because he has blue and green on the back of his neck in small patches. It's not enough to be obvious, but it's there.

So no, he probably isn't pure, but he is a "scarlet" macaw. So he would be eligible for registration as a scarlet macaw, and regular confirmation shows would encourage someone to breed those extra colors out.

Registered animals get a certificate. When they breed, broods are registered as a whole by the breeder, using parents' registration information. Individual certificates are issued for each offspring for the NEW owner to register after adoption. That is how the AKC does their registration process. But for parrots, registration would also need to be held at regular "national" shows for several years to allow the entire parrot trade to get on board. One or two "judges" could also be willing to travel to large aviaries (for a fee) to help with their massive registrations.

There's a lot more to think about and work on, but I feel motivated right now. Keep throwing questions and ideas!

I think that perhaps the National Cockatiel Society, American Cockatiel Society, North American Cockatiel Society, etc may be better places to start, or at least to look into since they are parrots societies that already register birds, breed, and show them. Another thing to consider is that this is a very expensive operation we are talking about here, just in staff and paper, not to mention office space and all the other costs that go into an operation like this. Ultimately these costs are going to land on the breeders in registration fees, dues, show entrance fees, etc, and it isn't going to be cheap; how do you incentivise the breeders to pay these fees? yes, "value" is added to a dog that is AKC registered, but how much is the registration fee? How will you change the "system" to lead people to seek out registered birds? If people are not willing to pay more for registered birds, then breeders will not be willing to pay to register them. There is a HUGE public education project wrapped up in this idea, one that cannot be ignored if you want to succeed. You need to come up with clear answers as to why a registered bird is worth more money, and a strategy not only to convince breeders but to convince buyers. I can BARELY convince buyers that a bird raised with a family, fully flighted, harness trained, heavily socialized, and with the foundations of recall training is a better purchase than a completely wild bird or one raised in isolation, force weaned, clipped early, and stuck in a glass tank until they take it home. Big project here.

SilverSage · Jan 13, 2015

Dinosrawr said:
I wonder if the desire to have purebred parrots would also encourage wild caught birds that are most reliably pure? It's theoretical and perhaps not really a concern, but I just wonder. And would that encourage breeding just for the sake of show? We own a german shepherd that is from a breeder that did Schutzhund with her dogs and bred them strictly for showing, keeping pure German show lines. We got Kona at the age of 2, and she has terrible hips now 8 years later because she was bred for "perfect" show walking. The breeder also cared little for the dogs other than whether or not they would show well... Kona was going to be kept as a breeder because she has a red coat and is a large female, but her hips didn't "perfectly align" while she walked... so she was simply shipped off and sold after assessment. Not that current parrot breeders are any better, but I just wonder how that would impact the well being of an animal that lives so long...? These are just initial thoughts, I guess trying to be the devil's advocate. I'm not against it, I just figured I'd add my wonderings

I expressed the inbreeding for "perfection" as well, and suggest more color/marking oriented standards with health in mind and measurements in a "normal" range. It does concern me, but as was said there are good and bad breeders. Even in dogs, an ethical breeder does not bred dogs with known hip issues, the best that couldbe done is to enact standards which are anything but the picture of health rather than the picture in someone's head of what the prettiest shape of a parrot is. I am not sure how possible that is.

As for getting birds out of the wild, no I do not think this will be a problem for several reasons, starting with how stinking hard and expensive it is to import parrots into the USA, and the proof of captive breeding that is required in order to do so. It is simply not worth the time. This is actually something that many people do not realize; captive breeding of parrots in the USA chokes off the poaching pipeline into this country for the simple reason that it is easier, cheaper, safer, and more fun to buy from a breeder here than it is to buy a wild caught parrot.

Also, since there is no way to test the purity of a bird other than looking at the physical bird in front of you and test breeding him, most parrots out there could become registered during the first few years or whatever, while registration is open and not required to come from registered parents (if that is how it would work? I'm not all that familiar with the AKC).

SilverSage · Jan 13, 2015

Ltygress said:
I'm actually considering a lot of this, and thinking about how to maneuver through obstacles. The AKC is going to be my "model" for the most part. Someone suggested a band code registry so others couldn't just order bands of the same codes. Each breeder would need their own.

Yep, that was me. You might need to think about actual legislation for this one. For example in South Dakota we have a lot of horses and cattle. You must re-register your brand every year in order to keep it. If you fail to do so, you lose the right to brand your animals that way and marking them that way without registration is illegal. I had an employer who branded some of his horses with a brand similar to "the christian fish." He used a hot brand for this. A neighboring ranch used the same mark with a cold brand (this changes the hair to white rather than removing it). This was on the border of illegal, and was certainly rude and unethical, but because they used a cold brand and my boss's brand was registered as hot, they were not "technically" breaking the law. But without that law, they would have been able to use a hot brand and pass their horses off as my boss's or vice versa, allowing them to tarnish my boss's reputation or easily steal his livestock.

Breeder codes on closed bands would be a LITTLE different because of the time constraint on when you can apply them, but still if someone wanted to they could use my code and mess with my reputation or make it hard for me to prove ownership of my birds (Please science, hurry up with the small bird microchips!) or just in general be confusing an annoying.

This is another huge hurdle to this project, because without the legislative regulation of band sales and breeder codes even permanent ID of birds is no guarantee that the bird on the paper is the bird in front of you.

SilverSage · Jan 13, 2015

Also, it appears that the Society of Parrot Breeders and Exhibitors is already doing the same thing, or at least part of it. Perhaps joining them and working from where they are, using what they have already achieved, would be the best approach.

Society of Parrot Breeders and Exhibitors

Ltygress · Jan 14, 2015

Thanks for the info again, SilverSage! Sorry I've been semi MIA, working with this new Scarlet every chance I get. He's being stubborn and still determined to bite and snap, but I've got a VERY high pain tolerance, so he's not getting anywhere. He'll take his first trip to the vet on the 26th. Strangely enough though, his presence has begun to help bring my Hy out of her shell. She doesn't like him, so she seeks shelter from him - through me, lol! So I've tried to make sure I'm there for her when she's ready!

Anyway, back to the subject. I think expiration dates would be good for the leg band registration, along with a standard format including dates that has to go along with the registration. I think that plus transferrable "initial" registration forms would help. I can't guarantee it would be written into law, but if legband distributors could get on board, it would just be a matter of making sure no one could order closed legbands for past years to replace a bird with a younger version that has a back-dated legband. Then the bird buyers could match legband code to the bird's registration paper each and every time the bird is transferred to a different person.

And I am still on the search for a good computer programmer. I need to find out how much they would charge to write the program to figure out how much registration fees would probably be (ballpark figure)

SilverSage · Jan 14, 2015

I've been doing a bit of looking, and there are quite a few organizations out there that are already registering birds and selling standardized, registered, traceable leg bands, particularly in cockatiels.

Ltygress · Jan 15, 2015

That sucks. What about big parrots though? Macaws and cockatoos?

SilverSage · Jan 15, 2015

Not that I am aware of. It seems to men hat the most efficient method of accomplishing your goal would be to work with one or more of the existing cockatiel societies, or bigger birds if you can find them, who already have breed standards, registration, shows, etc, and expand from there to other species rather then trying to start from scratch.

Ltygress · Jan 18, 2015

That's what I'm starting to think. I got a quote on the computer program, and complete with bells and whistles, I'm looking at 2k. That would be more than possible whenever our lovely Veteran's Affairs office completes my disability evaluation (four years now and counting). But the timing of that still looks gray.

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