Parrot Forum Header Left  
Go Back   Parrot Forum - Parrot Owner's Community > Community > Off Topic

Off Topic Post here for non parrot related topics

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2017, 09:56 AM
Owlet's Avatar
Senior Member
Parrots:
Lincoln (Eclectus), Apollo (Cockatiel)
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Colorado
Thanks: 621
Thanked 3,221 Times in 1,209 Posts
Owlet is on a distinguished road
Hybrid birds sources

There's this ignorant person that's trying to argue that there's no health issues in hybrids, specifically hybrid parrots, and demands sources. I'm having a hard time finding reliable sources to give her, anyone have articles or anything about the issues with hybrid birds and/or hybrids in general?
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Owlet For This Useful Post:
gavagai (04-02-2017), Scott  (04-03-2017)
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2017, 10:23 AM
gavagai's Avatar
Senior Member
Parrots:
Green-cheek conure, Quaker parakeet
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Capital of Texas
Thanks: 256
Thanked 47 Times in 36 Posts
gavagai is on a distinguished road
Re: Hybrid birds sources

I know of this article by Howard Voren, which was what first turned me against hybrids. Unfortunately, his math is based on incorrect assumptions, namely that ancestry is a continuous function, rather than discrete. I'm not sure how many chromosomes parrots have and can only find counts for pigeons, doves, turkeys, and chickens. However I'll assume (almost certainly incorrectly) that 78-80 is the rule across the class Aves, and pick the higher of them.

With 80 chromosomes, a bird will have 40 from one parent and 40 from the other. After that, it becomes a matter of chance. If you cross-breed a hybrid with a pure species, it will likely have around 20 from one parent species and 60 from another, with 1/2^40 chance of being a pure blood or a pure hybrid. While the odds of that on a first cross are laughably small, they increase on future generations. I don't feel like figuring out the math right now, but I can tell you it is many generations before a pure species becomes likely, and even then you can't be sure without genetic testing, so Voren's basic premise stands, even if the math, and consquentially the assumption that the omelette cannot be unmixed, is wrong.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to gavagai For This Useful Post:
Owlet (04-02-2017), Scott  (04-03-2017)
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2017, 11:10 AM
SailBoat's Avatar
Supporting Member
Parrots:
DYH Amazon
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Western, Michigan
Thanks: 44,131
Thanked 27,578 Times in 9,368 Posts
SailBoat will become famous soon enough
Re: Hybrid birds sources

Quote: Originally Posted by Owlet View Post
There's this ignorant person that's trying to argue that there's no health issues in hybrids, specifically hybrid parrots, and demands sources. I'm having a hard time finding reliable sources to give her, anyone have articles or anything about the issues with hybrid birds and/or hybrids in general?
If one is to believe those that are claiming that Parrots in their Natural Regions of origins, that those population are plummeting (ask this person if they believe that or not). The question becomes, if true, where but the Companion Parrot population can these areas be repopulated. Creating Hybrids limit the availability of being able to support such efforts.

Over the years and many discussions with ignorant people. I have come to understand that even faced with a mountain of evidence they will find reason not to change their ignorant belief. In addition, what passes for education today - teaching the answers to questions is only creating more of these individuals

Add to this the very self-centeredness that is also become ever more common place and one is faced with: It's What I Want Isms! And, because I want it, it should be that way!

The reality is, you are dealing with toddler that needs a time-out and has been needed one for a very long time! Time is Precious and there is no need to waste your time on an individual that does not care what you say and even worst likes the attention!!!

Place this individual on that special list: This person is an Idiot, Avoid Interactions!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SailBoat For This Useful Post:
gavagai (04-02-2017), Scott  (04-03-2017)
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2017, 11:18 AM
Owlet's Avatar
Senior Member
Parrots:
Lincoln (Eclectus), Apollo (Cockatiel)
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Colorado
Thanks: 621
Thanked 3,221 Times in 1,209 Posts
Owlet is on a distinguished road
Re: Hybrid birds sources

They're being incredibly childish and even faced with sources and proof they're making up lies and telling me to "get my facts straight." It's incredibly frustrating and their next reply will determine if I just leave or continue trying to reason with them, I rather educate when I can then just quit over a bit of ignorance.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Owlet For This Useful Post:
Scott  (04-03-2017)
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2017, 11:31 AM
SailBoat's Avatar
Supporting Member
Parrots:
DYH Amazon
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Western, Michigan
Thanks: 44,131
Thanked 27,578 Times in 9,368 Posts
SailBoat will become famous soon enough
Re: Hybrid birds sources

Quote: Originally Posted by Owlet View Post
They're being incredibly childish and even faced with sources and proof they're making up lies and telling me to "get my facts straight." It's incredibly frustrating and their next reply will determine if I just leave or continue trying to reason with them, I rather educate when I can then just quit over a bit of ignorance.
Do not reply! Place them of the Idiot List and move on to a happier life! Clearly they are enjoying this play for attention! Your Time is much better spent elsewhere, isn't it?

They Are Playing With You!!!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to SailBoat For This Useful Post:
Scott  (04-03-2017)
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2017, 11:39 AM
Owlet's Avatar
Senior Member
Parrots:
Lincoln (Eclectus), Apollo (Cockatiel)
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Colorado
Thanks: 621
Thanked 3,221 Times in 1,209 Posts
Owlet is on a distinguished road
Re: Hybrid birds sources

They've stopped commenting so they may realize how wrong they are. I'm now talking to someone else who shares what I'm saying but is trying to point out hybrid birds weren't the original topic

The OP originally posted about buying from breeders vs adopting from a rescue which is all good and fine but then someone pointed out that their photo contained a hybrid macaw (which isn't necessarily a bad hybrid since macaws are relatively close in genetics) but it made people questions the validity of the post since OP bought a hybrid and as far as I'm aware not many responsible breeders breed hybrids. So it raised the debate of if hybrids are okay or not and health issues in such hybrids.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Owlet For This Useful Post:
Scott  (04-03-2017)
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2017, 11:59 AM
SailBoat's Avatar
Supporting Member
Parrots:
DYH Amazon
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Western, Michigan
Thanks: 44,131
Thanked 27,578 Times in 9,368 Posts
SailBoat will become famous soon enough
Re: Hybrid birds sources

Quote: Originally Posted by Owlet View Post
They've stopped commenting so they may realize how wrong they are. I'm now talking to someone else who shares what I'm saying but is trying to point out hybrid birds weren't the original topic

The OP originally posted about buying from breeders vs adopting from a rescue which is all good and fine but then someone pointed out that their photo contained a hybrid macaw (which isn't necessarily a bad hybrid since macaws are relatively close in genetics) but it made people questions the validity of the post since OP bought a hybrid and as far as I'm aware not many responsible breeders breed hybrids. So it raised the debate of if hybrids are okay or not and health issues in such hybrids.
I am glad to hear that they had slide back into their holes.

You are correct, the ethical, responsible Breeders of mid to larger Parrots do not invest in hybrids. They also take great care not to allow mating between brothers and sisters, etc..

Love the way you think! You have great parents and like great teachers in your life!
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SailBoat For This Useful Post:
Owlet (04-02-2017), Scott  (04-03-2017)
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2017, 12:11 PM
Violet_Diva's Avatar
Supporting Member
Parrots:
Bella (Vosmaeri Eclectus Female) + Dexter (Red Sided Eclectus Male) + Gerry (Vosmaeri Eclectus Male)
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Norfolk (England)
Thanks: 1,132
Thanked 1,191 Times in 524 Posts
Violet_Diva is on a distinguished road
Re: Hybrid birds sources

I did start a thread a while ago after I 'discovered' hybrids.
There's some interesting information and opinions...

Hybrid Parrots - Wonderful Or Wrong ?
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Violet_Diva For This Useful Post:
Owlet (04-02-2017), SailBoat Supporting Member (04-02-2017), Scott  (04-03-2017)
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2017, 12:14 PM
Kentuckienne's Avatar
Supporting Vendor
Parrots:
Gus, Blue and gold macaw rescue
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Middle of nowhere (kentuckianna)
Thanks: 1,211
Thanked 3,834 Times in 1,694 Posts
Kentuckienne will become famous soon enough
Re: Hybrid birds sources

There are layers of truth here. There's a term called hybrid vigor, which refers to the increased capacities of some mixes. A mixed breed dog, for example, probably has a better set of genes than a purebred in many cases. Purebred dogs, cats, etc are selected to conform to the appearance of the breed standard, but mixes will have better resistance to genetic disorders and are sometimes stronger and healthier. But dogs are all the same species, as are humans. Mules are examples of true cross-species hybrids that combine the size and strength of a horse with the intelligence, hardiness, and temperament of a donkey. But they are sterile. Parrots are actually different species, so hybrids could be infertile. The main problem is what Sailboat said - many parrots are going extinct in their home ranges, and may depend on the offspring of captive bred birds to restore the wild population. If the captive birds are allowed to hybridize, there won't be genetically pure individuals to release. Also, since different parrot species evolved to survive under specific environmental circumstances, a hybrid individual might not be able to survive if reintroduced into the wild.

Cross breeding is a luxury humans exercise to create animals for our amusement and needs, such as sheep herding dogs or rat catching cats, and not something we can afford for a diminishing population of a species. So I wouldn't hesitate to adopt a hybrid bird, and the bird bears no blame obviously, but I don't condone the breeding of such birds. It's vanity and selfishness.
__________________
Kentuckienne, the Amazonienne sidechick.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Kentuckienne For This Useful Post:
gavagai (04-02-2017), Owlet (04-02-2017), SailBoat Supporting Member (04-02-2017), Scott  (04-03-2017)
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2017, 10:31 AM
Scott's Avatar
Super Moderator
Parrots:
Goffins: Gabby, Abby, Squeaky, Peanut, Popcorn / Citron: Alice / Eclectus: Angel /Timneh Grey: ET / Blue Fronted Amazon: Gonzo / RIP Gandalf and Big Bird, you are missed.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Diego, California USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy
Thanks: 89,582
Thanked 45,334 Times in 15,788 Posts
Scott is on a distinguished road
Re: Hybrid birds sources

Trolls belong underneath the proverbial bridge of truth, cowering and silent!

While a human may desire a hybrid for alleged beauty, IMO the genetic mixing of rare and endangered species typically has no good outcome. I would rather see efforts devoted to better understanding their nature and preservation of natural habitats.
__________________
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Scott For This Useful Post:
gavagai (04-03-2017)
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Parrot Forum - Parrot Owner's Community > Community > Off Topic

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sources for teaching to talk? Skittys_Daddy Conures 21 02-10-2017 07:28 PM
The Best Calcium Sources for Red Eared Sliders & Similar Turtles findi NonFeathered Pets 0 08-05-2014 07:52 PM
Sources of Protein? Phlox Parrot Food, Recipes and Diet 14 06-22-2014 05:31 PM
Canadian Cage Sources? redgate Cages 6 08-12-2013 11:25 AM
any good sources on conure behavior/body language? TurquoiseMel Conures 3 06-13-2012 12:11 AM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.